Those against redistribution of wealth

[WHAMPOM]

How many people are one pay check away from being homeless? Ever think, "There but for the grace of God goes..."? Naw, "greed is good" or is that "GREED IS GOD" is the watch word heard most around here.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Evan

Originally posted by: CPA
My moral obligation should not be managed by the government.

Where is your moral obligation in not taking something you haven't earned?

Except what you utterly fail to understand is that redistribution does not give to people who didn't earn it, it's the other way around. For example, baseball or football players being taxed at high rates is great because most of them didn't earn their money, they were just born with physical gifts.

If that isn't the biggest load of bullshit you've ever posted, then I must have missed a few of your posts.

Would you like to think about the statements you've made here, and admit they are wrong, or do I need to waste 5 minutes of my time telling you why it's a load of shit?

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83

Originally posted by: jbourne77
It's not that we don't feel a moral obligation to help, it's that many of those redistributions go to black holes. Like SagaLore said in the second post, I have no problem helping someone get up on their feet, but I do have a problem feeding someone who won't get off their ass..

I agree with you. But how does one defend against the type of person that responds ALWAYS to this argument with "It isn't like that."

I know tons of very left wing people who would say "It isn't like that" or "They don't have the opportunities you did" or "there's no way to get them off the street and get them jobs." How does one defend that? if I say I don't want to give my money directly to the poor (IE: redistribution of wealth), how can I justify the fact that I was fortunate to be educated and get a good job, while others are on the streets and not having the same opportunities?

You defend it by not legitimizing such poorly constructed arguments. Someone who simply says "it isn't like that" or "there's no way..." isn't trying hard enough. They're trying to end your argument by painting a fallacious "end of the road" to it. No need to respond to it.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

The left supporting the redistribution of wealth and the right rebelling against that idea has always been a bit of a dichotomy to me. In essence - rich and poor, haves and have nots, those on an upward trend or a downward trend; all are very Darwinian in nature. In this case it's a Darwinism that the right supports and the left rebels against.

As Spock would say - "Fascinating."

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

Many people complain that higher taxes and "social" programs like health care, etc. are bad. That if people make money, they want to keep that money, and they want the government out of their pockets.

It's a fair argument, but then what do people like that think of people on the streets, etc. who can't have the same opportunities?

so is that why democrats have lower charitable contributions than republicans?

Proof?

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Do you not understand what I'm saying? Someone has to do the minimum wage jobs,

Yea, they're called high school kids.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I got no problem with redist. Just give me time to put $$ in offshore banks . and enough time for wife kids to quit jobs get on welfare . and let the redistributing begin. I earned what I have. Nobody gave me nothing . HARD work .

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Evan

Originally posted by: CPA
My moral obligation should not be managed by the government.

Where is your moral obligation in not taking something you haven't earned?

Except what you utterly fail to understand is that redistribution does not give to people who didn't earn it, it's the other way around. For example, baseball or football players being taxed at high rates is great because most of them didn't earn their money, they were just born with physical gifts.

First off, let me say that you should go and tell this bullshit to an NBA coach, or an NFL coach, or a MLB manager, and let them explain why your statement is utter bullshit. They'd do a much better job than I could.

But let me make an attempt anyway, because what you said here is just so damn infuriating, I can't hardly resist.

If what you said is true, and it sure as hell isn't, professional athletes wouldn't be making anywhere near as much money. Is there some "luck" here? Sure, it isn't skill that makes someone 7 feet tall, or able to weigh 350 lb's. But this is just an extremely small part of their life that got these athletes where they are.

Just like a doctor, or a lawyer, or the CEO of a company, being a successful professional athlete takes total dedication and total determination. It means a lot more than just missing out on some partying, and waking up early in the morning. Going to and passing classes that you don't like, getting along with teammates, traveling from city to city, being away from your family for long periods of time. It means a lot more than that.

I knew a guy in high school who was really an unbelievable basketball player. There wasn't any doubt in my mind he was going to college on scholarship. And sure enough, the offers were there. The then-championship Arkansas team wanted him, and definitely a few others as well. There was one problem though. He wasn't dedicated. The desire and the talent were there, clear as day, easy as pie. He had taken the ACT a few times and never got above 16. He needed a 17. Such a small obstacle, and such an incredible reward. But the very night before his last chance at taking the ACT, I saw him at a baseball game. He was drinking Jack right from the bottle.

I'm sure he's bagging groceries somewhere today. I hope not, but I wouldn't bet against the idea.

Now let me tell you about another guy, whom I never knew personally, but I liked watching him play for our Memphis team last year. Big guy, black guy. He was the very first person in his family to graduate from high school. Not college, high school. During an interview, he had this to say, ?A lot of people in my neighborhood said that I wouldn?t make it, go to college." "Everyone back home thought I would be the first guy from Douglass High School kicked off a college team." ?I remember walking around, dribbling a basketball 24-7 when I was younger,? he said. ?I would see a lot of guys 6-8, 6-9 on the corner drinking beer, smoking marijuana, everything like that. I didn?t want to be one of those guys.?

And he isn't one of those guys. He now plays in the NBA. And it wasn't just raw talent that God gave him. It was willpower, determination, it was believing in himself. It was learning how to play basketball, and then relearning how to play basketball. It was going the extra mile, every time, and in everything he did. If shooting free throws wasn't his thing, too fucking bad, he had to do it, he had to put in extra time.

In the end, it isn't really any different than someone who wants to be a doctor, a lawyer, or anything else. The competition is extreme, and you won't find a professional basketball player, football player, baseball player, hockey player, gymnast, or whatever, who didn't work his or her ass off to get there. Who didn't dedicate their life to being who they are, and doing what they do.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: Possessed Freak

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
People have the incredible notion that they deserve what they earn. How did they come to deserve to be alive. It you're alive you own nothing less than infinite gratitude, no?

The first thing those whose infinite fortune is life start thinking soon after being born, is themselves, and nobody else. And this is because they are taught from the first day is to hate life and themselves.

All your cabbage that you collect to flatter your ego will be taken away, and you will never enjoy it anyway, be of your fear you'll lose it.

Good philosophizing... money does not equal ego to me, and believe me when I say I spend my money pretty liberally. My goal is to die a poor poor man, otherwise I wasted my time working with no reward.

And your family what about them ???? Or is it all about self. I agree with ya if ya haven't family.

 

[Nemesis 1]

So I take it that SS bennies should be raised alot . Because our elderly are not rich . There just old. Pack off to rest home and forget about them . While the rest home takes all their worldly goods . But that cool right! These rest homes are really great . $6'000 a month. and they pack them in . Than the people hired to take care o fthem.ARE low income many have drug problems . Ya its all good. But lets not help the helpless. Better to help the lazy younger groups. Love the logic . If old peoples SS was higher. Many children would find a way to do for parents what the parents did for them . NO way can that happen . But for real it would save the nation billions annually.

There are 1st steps in everthing. First step help the helpless. ANY thing else is a lie. and inhuman. Take care of the old befor we worry about the lazy. I mean my parents took care of me when i was helpless. Provide care for the truely sick . No dieseas that can't be proven allowed. I can't believe the number of people faking unproveable diseases getting on SS. THAT should not be allowed. Or location braclets should be warn . So activity can be monitored. 1 strike rule.

Funny how this country can MURDER innocent children . Yet when the elderly begg for death we deny THEIR CHOICE. Now you people that think like this . your so transparent a bird could easily run into ya.

 

[jpeyton]

Unfortunately there are 70-something more days until we can start redistributing stuff.

 

[Kirby]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Unfortunately there are 70-something more days until we can start redistributing stuff.

What are you willing to give?

 

[jackace]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
I got no problem with redist. Just give me time to put $$ in offshore banks . and enough time for wife kids to quit jobs get on welfare . and let the redistributing begin. I earned what I have. Nobody gave me nothing . HARD work .

Someone somewhere likely gave you a break or an opportunity to prove yourself, and if you are older someone likely gave you a second or third opportunity.

What's the old saying? Something like, It's not what you know, but who you know. Hard work only gets you so far in our society after that it's all about networking and social connections. The only exceptions I can think of is if you have a special "gift" or "talent". Something that most other people just can not do or perform at your level. Things like sports, arts, singing, etc. or if you have some revolutionary idea that changes the way things are done in an entire industry. Even with these "gifts" or "talents" the right connections are still very important to success.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: nkgreen

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Unfortunately there are 70-something more days until we can start redistributing stuff.

What are you willing to give?

I don't make more than $250,000/year, so I'm in the business of taking.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Yep and $$$ is leaving this country right now like never befor. Off shore accounts are growing by staggering numbers. GOOD Plan idiots.

 

[Kirby]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: nkgreen

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Unfortunately there are 70-something more days until we can start redistributing stuff.

What are you willing to give?

I don't make more than $250,000/year, so I'm in the business of taking.

What do you base your entitlement on? What did you do to deserve it?

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: nkgreen
What do you base your entitlement on? What did you do to deserve it?

I got up this morning. Does that count?

:laugh:

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Yep and $$$ is leaving this country right now like never befor. Off shore accounts are growing by staggering numbers. GOOD Plan idiots.

It is a good plan. I'm going to open one up myself.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Nope. Didn't happen that way at all. But I know what your saying. Your correct for some cases. NO one has ever cut me slack ever. In person I am very course. I do have an attitude. Who is right who is wrong will be known soon enough. But I believe in my heart . That a person should state their true feeling at all times. Weather it hurts or not. Does it make you correct ? No. It does make you honest and unpopular. But I have to live with that . Lucky for me the Lord is my judge . Not some NO account evolved ape. Thats how I am . For better or worse. Look at Heart I am a socialist. But it has to be real . The acadimic community can't be trusted to prioritize jobs. We all have our skills none out weigh the other. Some have tough minds and can handle back breaking work were others can't . So the acadimic community is HIGHLY prejudice to there own . There for 100% untrust worthy.

So socialism is a dream . Because the smart guys will always think they deserve more than others. I predict In just a few very short years . They will recieve what they truely deserve . Something like what happened in France would be OK by me as long as I not involved. On either side.

This is something that showed me who Obama was. If Obama would have stated his position on gay marriage in calif. The resolution would not have passed. But Obama was more worried about winning than rolling up his sleeves thats a FACT. He should have spoke from his heart . Not his mind . Can't be trusted proof is in the pudding .

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Evan

Originally posted by: CPA
My moral obligation should not be managed by the government.

Where is your moral obligation in not taking something you haven't earned?

Except what you utterly fail to understand is that redistribution does not give to people who didn't earn it, it's the other way around. For example, baseball or football players being taxed at high rates is great because most of them didn't earn their money, they were just born with physical gifts.

If that isn't the biggest load of bullshit you've ever posted, then I must have missed a few of your posts.

Would you like to think about the statements you've made here, and admit they are wrong, or do I need to waste 5 minutes of my time telling you why it's a load of shit?

I think his point was that a lot of the time those who are paid very little are the ones busting their asses the hardest.......obviously the football players earn their money because people agree to pay them to play... ..

 

[jpeyton]

If you guys truly hated progressive taxation this much, you would have all moved out during the Clinton era.

If Americans as a whole hated it so much, they wouldn't elect politicians who support it.

The "Flat Tax" idea had been floated many times, and crashed & burned every time.

You can call it socialism, communism, whatever-ism...but America has a progressive tax code, now and for the foreseeable future.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: AFMatt

Originally posted by: Evan

What specifically are you referring to? Just so we're clear, are you referring to athletes who have to "work" on varsity teams in high school or something? Because like I said, the guy who eventually makes 80K does not make a dime when he's in high school either (obviously some exceptions to this).

That person who eventually makes that $80K.. Lets say he goes to work in IT. He isnt doing an IT job in high school. Of course he doesn't make a dime, he isnt doing the job! He doesnt have to. He is simply going to school learning the same thing as everyone else. He then goes to college and learns more about IT, and probably gets a part time job as a pizza delivery guy while he is there.

The athlete, on the other hand, has to go to school and do his job, for no pay, if he expects to ever make money in the future. His job is the sport he chose to play. He has to do it and excel in it through those years. He then goes to college and learns about whatever degree he elected to pursue, meanwhile still taking part in that job, for no pay, so he can get a paid job in that field in the future.

Summary:
$80k/year IT guy = doesn't have to do IT for free during high school and college if he expects to get paid for it.
Athlete = has to do it for free, and work hard at it, through high school and college if he expects to ever get paid for it.

You ignore a whole slew of factors already explained to you. For one, athletes don't play by the same rules; they don't have to pay for college at nearly the same expense as average Americans do. They don't actually have to work nearly as hard in school because colleges will let them in with shoddy GPAs (this is absolutely undeniable, documented, and provable). And to top it off, the work they actually do (their sport) is overwhelming considered fun according to most athletes themselves. You're not going to get anywhere claiming athletes work just as hard unless you ignore those realities. Which you did, and explains why you honestly think professional athletes have it just as tough as average Americans. Just not true. Average Americans aren't let into UCLA with 2.5 GPAs, aren't given the opportunity for scholarships the way athletes are, and aren't babied throughout their youth into thinking they can't be told no. Totally different realities.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Man you people have changed alot. Sports is games. games are fun . Not work . Did you ever play . I did . It wasn't work at all.

Sorry but they are way overpaid. But it doesn't matter. AS transportation cost keep rising . And Computer graphics keep on getting better. Given enough Time . Sports heros and movie stars will be a thing of the past . Its all about $$$. In the end the highest profit entertainment will win the day, Creating graphics is way more profitable than paying over paid entertainers.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: AFMatt
Well, according to you I guess athletes don't actually have to take part in the sport all those years, practice for the sport all those years, and work out for the sport all those years. They just walk out of college with a degree in Sport and get a multi-million $ job.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion in what constitutes work then, because what I hear from athletes by and large is that playing sports for them isn't work, it's fun. That's how a lot of them get involved in the first place. Now I don't know about you, but I don't go to work because I'm thrilled to be there, but sometimes you have to man up and do things you don't like doing. Athletes? Nope, they just don't know the meaning of the word "No" and haven't seen nearly the same set of obstacles that most average Americans do (that's a generalization but a true one). They certainly have to work hard like average Americans, but let's not be ridiculous and think their work ethic isn't far less stressful and cumbersome than the average American. That's just jumping the shark.

As far as the CEO comment, nothing in my statement said anything about how wrong it is for a CEO to get a huge payout even when the company fails. That is a problem with corporations and their lame ass practices, and has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. Maybe if we were talking about penalty taxes for that specific situation, it would be related, but we aren't. We are talking about raising taxes on people who make more money, simply because they have the ability to make more money than others.

No, you said "The bottom line is, it is absolutely unreasonable to penalize people who are able to make more money than others; No matter what their job is or how hard they had to work to get there."

A CEO fits this criteria, as obviously you're characterizing taxing the rich higher rates as a "penalty" when it's simply a redistribution of wealth. In your world, a CEO who got his post purely via family connections shouldn't be taxed at a higher rate for, well, what reason again? Because it's "unfair"? Thankfully a vast majority of the country is fine with it.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: Evan

Originally posted by: AFMatt

Originally posted by: Evan

What specifically are you referring to? Just so we're clear, are you referring to athletes who have to "work" on varsity teams in high school or something? Because like I said, the guy who eventually makes 80K does not make a dime when he's in high school either (obviously some exceptions to this).

That person who eventually makes that $80K.. Lets say he goes to work in IT. He isnt doing an IT job in high school. Of course he doesn't make a dime, he isnt doing the job! He doesnt have to. He is simply going to school learning the same thing as everyone else. He then goes to college and learns more about IT, and probably gets a part time job as a pizza delivery guy while he is there.

The athlete, on the other hand, has to go to school and do his job, for no pay, if he expects to ever make money in the future. His job is the sport he chose to play. He has to do it and excel in it through those years. He then goes to college and learns about whatever degree he elected to pursue, meanwhile still taking part in that job, for no pay, so he can get a paid job in that field in the future.

Summary:
$80k/year IT guy = doesn't have to do IT for free during high school and college if he expects to get paid for it.
Athlete = has to do it for free, and work hard at it, through high school and college if he expects to ever get paid for it.

You ignore a whole slew of factors already explained to you. For one, athletes don't play by the same rules; they don't have to pay for college at nearly the same expense as average Americans do. They don't actually have to work nearly as hard in school because colleges will let them in with shoddy GPAs (this is absolutely undeniable, documented, and provable). And to top it off, the work they actually do (their sport) is overwhelming considered fun according to most athletes themselves. You're not going to get anywhere claiming athletes work just as hard unless you ignore those realities. Which you did, and explains why you honestly think professional athletes have it just as tough as average Americans. Just not true. Average Americans aren't let into UCLA with 2.5 GPAs, aren't given the opportunity for scholarships the way athletes are, and aren't babied throughout their youth into thinking they can't be told no. Totally different realities.

Hell they don't even have to know how to read or write to go to college. Corruption!!!!

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Evan
We have a fundamental difference of opinion in what constitutes work then, because what I hear from athletes by and large is that playing sports for them isn't work, it's fun.

This is true for anyone who likes their job. Very often, I don't consider my work as work, as I enjoy doing it.