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Those against redistribution of wealth

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SilthDraeth

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2003
2,635
0
71
I make less than 40k a year, and have a family. I don't pay Federal Income Tax, because I am exempt due to the amount of money I make.

I don't think it is the government's right to give me a check each year as a "tax refund" or "child tax credit". I do however accept the money because it is given to me. I have voted against it, but I seem to be in the minority.

I am where I am at simply because this is where I settled. If I were smarter, or more motivated, etc, I could probably make more money.

The thing is, people get payed for the most part for the work they do, or the time they put in, whether they kiss more ass, or work harder.

Why should someone who doesn't do as much get as much? Where is the competitiveness?

One of the biggest lessons my dad taught me was "Life isn't fair"

He didn't tell me that, he taught me that by setting up contests between me and my little brother.

He had us carry dirt from a pile to an area where he was building a set of steps. We used coffee cans. For each coffee can of dirt we delivered we got a nickel. I was faster than my little brother, so my dad filled a wheel borrow and parked it 5 feet from the drop off point, and said only my brother could use that dirt, and I had to go the 50 feet to the pile.

Dang that isn't fair I told him. He said life isn't fair. And if your brother makes more money than you, you don't get any money, so you better work longer and harder if you want any money.


Did I hate my dad for it? No.

Did I learn a lesson? Yes.
 

Cattlegod

Diamond Member
May 22, 2001
8,687
1
0
They should eliminate all income tax and just do a straight sales tax of 20% or whatever it would need to be to break even.

That way if the rich person doesn't want to pay tax, he can just amass money, but if he wants nice things (like a $10M yacht), he will pay a hell of a lot more in tax than anyone in a low income bracket.
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
21
81
Originally posted by: SilthDraeth
He had us carry dirt from a pile to an area where he was building a set of steps. We used coffee cans. For each coffee can of dirt we delivered we got a nickel. I was faster than my little brother, so my dad filled a wheel borrow and parked it 5 feet from the drop off point, and said only my brother could use that dirt, and I had to go the 50 feet to the pile.

Dang that isn't fair I told him. He said life isn't fair. And if your brother makes more money than you, you don't get any money, so you better work longer and harder if you want any money.

Cool dad. :D
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Originally posted by: Cattlegod
They should eliminate all income tax and just do a straight sales tax of 20% or whatever it would need to be to break even.

That way if the rich person doesn't want to pay tax, he can just amass money, but if he wants nice things (like a $10M yacht), he will pay a hell of a lot more in tax than anyone in a low income bracket.

A true progressive tax. :thumbsup:
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
21
81
Originally posted by: Cattlegod
They should eliminate all income tax and just do a straight sales tax of 20% or whatever it would need to be to break even.

I'm beginning to reconsider the whole flat national sales tax. It seems to me the most important part of the economy is the flow. The higher the sales tax, the less people buy. Sure, the government will get a chunk of change with rich guy buys a yacht, but the production of that yacht required a minuscule fraction of jobs compared to the thousands of jobs needed to produce goods, transfer goods, and sell the goods in walmart.

I say screw sales tax, set it to 0 across the board. Instead set a flat income tax nationally and let states set flat property taxes. You make more money, you contribute more. You own more property, you contribute more. Let the cash flow freely in between.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Cattlegod
Originally posted by: Xavier434
It is very difficult to fish when the water is so far away and it keeps moving farther and farther and farther.

Then that person starves and the person who can run fast enough to catch up with the water lives, making society as a whole better able to survive.

Except they don't die and don't run towards the water because even if they make it to the water they will not be able to catch enough fish to bring home to their families and they starve anyways. Instead, they choose to steal your fish because they will do anything to survive. You can then try to prevent them from taking your fish by spending tons of money and time capturing them and locking them up....only to feed them even more of your fish than what you are feeding them now by shipping it to them.



Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: Xavier434
It is very difficult to fish when the water is so far away and it keeps moving farther and farther and farther.

So do you bring people closer to the water, try to bring the water closer to the people, or just say F it, take the fish from people who just caught it and ship it to the other end?

You are already shipping your fish to those on the other end so that is not a choice to make and you can't stop because of what I said above in response to Cattlegod. Lesser of two evils. Pick one.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
Originally posted by: Cattlegod
They should eliminate all income tax and just do a straight sales tax of 20% or whatever it would need to be to break even.

That way if the rich person doesn't want to pay tax, he can just amass money, but if he wants nice things (like a $10M yacht), he will pay a hell of a lot more in tax than anyone in a low income bracket.

A true progressive tax. :thumbsup:

Bullshit. That's only progressive if you are already rich.
 

Toasthead

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2001
6,621
0
0
Originally posted by: manlymatt83
I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

Many people complain that higher taxes and "social" programs like health care, etc. are bad. That if people make money, they want to keep that money, and they want the government out of their pockets.

It's a fair argument, but then what do people like that think of people on the streets, etc. who can't have the same opportunities?

giving a 'man on the street' money will not make them be successful in life. How are you sure they didnt have the same opportunities. Not everyone can be successful in life.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: manlymatt83
I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

Many people complain that higher taxes and "social" programs like health care, etc. are bad. That if people make money, they want to keep that money, and they want the government out of their pockets.

It's a fair argument, but then what do people like that think of people on the streets, etc. who can't have the same opportunities?

I don't support forced wealth redistribution, but I think charity is awesome. Especially those who give time rather than, or in addition to, money.

Originally posted by: CPA
My moral obligation should not be managed by the government.

Where is your moral obligation in not taking something you haven't earned?

Oh you beat me to it. :D
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Toasthead
Originally posted by: manlymatt83
I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

Many people complain that higher taxes and "social" programs like health care, etc. are bad. That if people make money, they want to keep that money, and they want the government out of their pockets.

It's a fair argument, but then what do people like that think of people on the streets, etc. who can't have the same opportunities?

giving a 'man on the street' money will not make them be successful in life. How are you sure they didnt have the same opportunities. Not everyone can be successful in life.

The idea surrounds how easy/hard turning your available opportunities into reality are. It is not about whether or not they exist at all. Also, most of the social services that I support revolves a lot around the children of the families that they go to and not so much the parents.
 

Toasthead

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2001
6,621
0
0
Originally posted by: daniel49
having worked with people on the streets, let me say first
1)you cannot help anyone who does not want to help themselves.
2)This requires discerning those that actually need a hand up as opposed to the leeches of society.
3)Private individuals and organizations are much more adept and efficient at this then govt is.
4)Men and women need pride in what they accomplish in life, not in what the Govt gives them.
5)We need to do a better job as a society in helping the mentally ill.

As a former director of a transitional homeless facility I agree with all of these points. Its also pretty important to realize that some of these folks WANT to be on the streets... no responsibilities, no stress, no one to answer to. I ran into this quite a bit...people who wouldnt mind a hand out but WOULD NOT do anything for it. Its just they way they were comfortable.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
People need three things to survive.

Food
Clothing
Shelter

How many died of starvation in the US last year?

How many died from exposure in the US last year?

A minuscule perhaps immeasurable number as a percentage of the population I can guarantee. The needs of these people are being met.

If the government starts redistributing wealth, there is one thing I can guarantee you with 100% certainty. You will never know where the money really went.

Don't let the bleeding hearts work their guilt trip on you. Let them wallow in it all on their own.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
People have the incredible notion that they deserve what they earn.

Yet the notion you deserve what I earn is credible?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
126
Originally posted by: boomerang
People need three things to survive.

Food
Clothing
Shelter

How many died of starvation in the US last year?

How many died from exposure in the US last year?

A minuscule perhaps immeasurable number as a percentage of the population I can guarantee. The needs of these people are being met.

If the government starts redistributing wealth, there is one thing I can guarantee you with 100% certainty. You will never know where the money really went.

Don't let the bleeding hearts work their guilt trip on you. Let them wallow in it all on their own.

I pretty much agree with this. There are countless shelters, programs, food kitchens, free clothing, etc, to help the homeless.

What is needed is more 'get-on-track' programs to help those that want it to get temporary housing, copies of their birth certificate, social security card, and state-issued ID cards, so that they can legally join the workforce.

Most homeless have no ID of any kind, which means that they're unable to get any legal work status.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
When are you guys going to realize that you can't just ignore these people and pretend that their problems will not have a major negative impact on your lives more so than what they do now if you just pretend they don't exist? The world and this economy just isn't that isolated and it never will be. We can't force them to be the way we want them to be either so we need to try to provide incentives, influences, and above all else we need to pick the lesser of many evils.

If your tax dollars are not spent on social services they will be spent on police and jails to bring down crime instead and that will be a hell of a lot more expensive and you know they will not be able to control that crime problem completely either which means your lives will be more miserable because of that too.

Here is a hint. The key to solving social service issues or reducing them has nothing to do with changing or removing social services. The key is to solve the many problems which require us to have them in such a bloated form in the first place. One of those big problems is personal responsibility...yet many of you are against adding community service to the curriculum of our youth to help teach them that too.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
Originally posted by: Xavier434
When are you guys going to realize that you can't just ignore these people and pretend that their problems will not have a major negative impact on your lives more so than what they do now if you just pretend they don't exist? The world and this economy just isn't that isolated and it never will be. We can't force them to be the way we want them to be either so we need to try to provide incentives, influences, and above all else we need to pick the lesser of many evils.

If your tax dollars are not spent on social services they will be spent on police and jails to bring down crime instead and that will be a hell of a lot more expensive and you know they will not be able to control that crime problem completely either which means your lives will be more miserable because of that too.

So take more of my paycheck, or crime will spiral out of control? :roll:
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Originally posted by: Xavier434
When are you guys going to realize that you can't just ignore these people and pretend that their problems will not have a major negative impact on your lives more so than what they do now if you just pretend they don't exist? The world and this economy just isn't that isolated and it never will be. We can't force them to be the way we want them to be either so we need to try to provide incentives, influences, and above all else we need to pick the lesser of many evils.

If your tax dollars are not spent on social services they will be spent on police and jails to bring down crime instead and that will be a hell of a lot more expensive and you know they will not be able to control that crime problem completely either which means your lives will be more miserable because of that too.

So take more of my paycheck, or crime will spiral out of control? :roll:

I edited that post.
 

manlymatt83

Lifer
Oct 14, 2005
10,051
44
91
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: manlymatt83
I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

There's a difference between choosing to help others and being forced to do it. Lots of Christians think you have a moral obligation to attend church on Sunday. How would you feel about a law requiring that you do that?

It is my understanding that the attitude you mention above is a right-winged attitude, correct? If so, how come its the left wingers that are pro-choice and not the right-wingers (making decisions instead of having them forced on you)? What's the difference?
 

manlymatt83

Lifer
Oct 14, 2005
10,051
44
91
Originally posted by: Cattlegod
They should eliminate all income tax and just do a straight sales tax of 20% or whatever it would need to be to break even.

That way if the rich person doesn't want to pay tax, he can just amass money, but if he wants nice things (like a $10M yacht), he will pay a hell of a lot more in tax than anyone in a low income bracket.

THIS

a MILLION TIMES this.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,746
6,762
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
People have the incredible notion that they deserve what they earn.

Yet the notion you deserve what I earn is credible?

What is incredible is that you think you earn anything. Everything you think you earn and own is nothing more or less than a gift.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: manlymatt83
I'm curious to know how those against redistribution of wealth don't feel some sort of moral obligation to help.

There's a difference between choosing to help others and being forced to do it. Lots of Christians think you have a moral obligation to attend church on Sunday. How would you feel about a law requiring that you do that?

It is my understanding that the attitude you mention above is a right-winged attitude, correct? If so, how come its the left wingers that are pro-choice and not the right-wingers (making decisions instead of having them forced on you)? What's the difference?

First, please stop trying to pigeon-hole people. I'm anti-death penalty - does that sound very right-wing to you? I'm also pro-gay civil unions, and pro-drug legalization. Again, does that sound very right-wing? Plenty of idiots here jump to all sorts of conclusions about people based on very litte information. "Oh, you don't support Obama?!? You're just some Rush Limbaugh disciple who's voting for McSame!" Um, no. Don't be one of THOSE idiots.

As for abortion, some pro-lifers believe the fetus is a person, deserving of legal protection just like an infant. Pro-choicers may disagree with assigning rights to a fetus, but none of them disagree with notion of the state defending the rights of such helpless parties as children. Every state in the union has laws against excessive physical punishment of children, for example. If that's "forcing decisions" on parents, so be it.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
People have the incredible notion that they deserve what they earn.

Yet the notion you deserve what I earn is credible?

What is incredible is that you think you earn anything. Everything you think you earn and own is nothing more or less than a gift.

Really?!? So even if I don't show up at work every morning, I'll still get paid?!? Sweet!