This whole R600/G80 benchmarks thing is nonsense.

[palindrome]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
SilentRunning, consumers will get their Dx10 from nvidia, don't worry about that. At the moment though, the more important fish to be fried is ATi (while Dx10 is still irrelevant).

Problem with you lot is you can't see things from more than one perpective at once. There is a lot more to the 3d graphics market than the wants of the consumer, something nvidia realizes (and mananges to address quite effectively if market share is an guide). I'm not at all sure that ATi realizes this though.

You are a tool

 

[Gstanfor]

I don't give a damn what you think of me Palindrome. I wouldn't like me either if I were an ATi supporter. Fortunately I don't ahve to worry about that.

 

[josh6079]

I don't give a damn what you think of me Palindrome. I wouldn't like me either if I were a sane and healthy person. Fortunately I don't ahve to worry about that.

Fixed.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Who said "shut down"? We are talking "LESS", not "NONE". Just to be clear for you on/off types.

ok, they're not going to "cut back" or "slow down" either. competitors do catch up at times; it's natural. it's not like only 1 company has talented personnel.

they aren't going to make it easier by "slacking off"... the pressure is always on. as they say, sometimes staying #1 is much harder than getting to #1.

and why all the bold? gonna edit em out..

Idiotic or not, it's what happens. Look what happened to AMD resting comfortably at the top when all Intel had was P4's and PD's. Then suddenly, Conroe. Then suddenly AMD has to get their collective butts moving and play catch up. These are simple common sense things guys. If you DONT have to innovate at break neck speeds, you won't. Not that there will be zero innovation, that is not what I am saying.

what makes you think they were "resting comfortably"? did you really think intel had no answer whatsoever? i'm sure amd didn't.

just because they didn't have an answer doesn't mean they weren't working very hard on their next step.

It applies in every aspect of life Viditor. People will only work as hard as they HAVE to. If AMD suddenly dropped high end discrete graphics production (which could happen at any time) how do you think Nvidia would react? Would they all say, "Oh crap, AMD is stopping production on discrete high end graphics. We should get our rearends moving if we want to keep up the pace."? No way in hell. They would sigh a breath of relief and slow down a bit. Their products would no longer be reactionary or revolutionary. They would be minor improvements such as yields and higher clocks on smaller manufacturing processes to save costs. Bottom line is NET income. Countless people fear the demise of AMD's discrete graphics business. You know the answer to why.

but that's a completely different scenario.

amd (ati) has not dropped out. intel is always a threat. cometition is nipping at nvidia's heels every day, regardless of whether they are "on top" at the moment.

were nvidia the ONLY player, then your premise would make more sense.. sure, they might "cut back" a bit.. but they aren't the only player, so they HAVE to push foward.

Once again, I never said "stop" moving forward. I said slower pace, less innovation, for the same high prices. Or higher.

and again, they aren't going to "slow down". you talk as if nvidia has absolutely nothing to fear. that's not the case at all, there are little dogs nipping at their heels 24/7.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I don't give a damn what you think of me Palindrome. I wouldn't like me either if I were an ATi supporter. Fortunately I don't ahve to worry about that.

what *amazes* me is the harm you are doing to nvidia


why do you drive sales to AMD by making such ridiculous and over-the-top claims - supposedly - "for" nvidia ?

any reasoning person, naturally goes the opposite direction

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I don't give a damn what you think of me Palindrome. I wouldn't like me either if I were an ATi supporter. Fortunately I don't ahve to worry about that.

what *amazes* me is the harm you are doing to nvidia


why do you drive sales to AMD by making such ridiculous and over-the-top claims - supposedly - "for" nvidia ?

any reasoning person, naturally goes the opposite direction

The only "harm to nvidia" is in your overly fertile imagination apoppin.

I'll bet nvidia wishes consumers would "harm them" like they currently are on a far more regular basis...

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I don't give a damn what you think of me Palindrome. I wouldn't like me either if I were an ATi supporter. Fortunately I don't ahve to worry about that.

Well, I'm an Nvidia supporter myself, and I don't like you either. Strange how you think the people who are against you are only ATI supporters. Well guess what...... It isn't so.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Who said "shut down"? We are talking "LESS", not "NONE". Just to be clear for you on/off types.

ok, they're not going to "cut back" or "slow down" either. competitors do catch up at times; it's natural. it's not like only 1 company has talented personnel.

they aren't going to make it easier by "slacking off"... the pressure is always on. as they say, sometimes staying #1 is much harder than getting to #1.

and why all the bold? gonna edit em out..

Idiotic or not, it's what happens. Look what happened to AMD resting comfortably at the top when all Intel had was P4's and PD's. Then suddenly, Conroe. Then suddenly AMD has to get their collective butts moving and play catch up. These are simple common sense things guys. If you DONT have to innovate at break neck speeds, you won't. Not that there will be zero innovation, that is not what I am saying.

what makes you think they were "resting comfortably"? did you really think intel had no answer whatsoever? i'm sure amd didn't.

just because they didn't have an answer doesn't mean they weren't working very hard on their next step.

It applies in every aspect of life Viditor. People will only work as hard as they HAVE to. If AMD suddenly dropped high end discrete graphics production (which could happen at any time) how do you think Nvidia would react? Would they all say, "Oh crap, AMD is stopping production on discrete high end graphics. We should get our rearends moving if we want to keep up the pace."? No way in hell. They would sigh a breath of relief and slow down a bit. Their products would no longer be reactionary or revolutionary. They would be minor improvements such as yields and higher clocks on smaller manufacturing processes to save costs. Bottom line is NET income. Countless people fear the demise of AMD's discrete graphics business. You know the answer to why.

but that's a completely different scenario.

amd (ati) has not dropped out. intel is always a threat. cometition is nipping at nvidia's heels every day, regardless of whether they are "on top" at the moment.

were nvidia the ONLY player, then your premise would make more sense.. sure, they might "cut back" a bit.. but they aren't the only player, so they HAVE to push foward.

Once again, I never said "stop" moving forward. I said slower pace, less innovation, for the same high prices. Or higher.

and again, they aren't going to "slow down". you talk as if nvidia has absolutely nothing to fear. that's not the case at all, there are little dogs nipping at their heels 24/7.

I'm pretty sure you lost the context of the conversation somewhere along the line. But it really doesn't matter. You think your way, I'll think mine. And we'll both be happy about it.

 

[palindrome]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I don't give a damn what you think of me Palindrome. I wouldn't like me either if I were an ATi supporter. Fortunately I don't ahve to worry about that.

Never said I thought anything of you. I made a factual statement that you are a tool. Also, I don't necessarily support ATI anymore than the next guy... I just like technology. Being brand biased is retarded and you will end up wasting money and/or performance by being that way. Technology isn't about the past, its about the future and your thoughts seem to always dwell where it doesn't ****** matter. Why don't you make yourself useful and get banned or something (or at least announce who you REALLY work for...).

 

[Aquila76]

apoppin, don't bother trying to squash Gstanfor's points/delusions. They're like roaches: you squash one and there's 100 more waiting for a chance to crap on the thread.

Honestly, I'm pretty happy about the current generation of GPU's. nVidia has remarkable performance at the high to high-mid end (8800 series). AMD will have excellent performing relatively lower cost cards. I'm replacing my achingly old 6600GT in September, so I can't wait to see what's coming down the pike from both camps. Although, Canon just announced the S5 IS, so some of my money is going to that first.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I don't give a damn what you think of me Palindrome. I wouldn't like me either if I were an ATi supporter. Fortunately I don't ahve to worry about that.

what *amazes* me is the harm you are doing to nvidia


why do you drive sales to AMD by making such ridiculous and over-the-top claims - supposedly - "for" nvidia ?

any reasoning person, naturally goes the opposite direction

The only "harm to nvidia" is in your overly fertile imagination apoppin.

I'll bet nvidia wishes consumers would "harm them" like they currently are on a far more regular basis...

keep going ... you already have the reputation as the lone madman in the wilderness

you gotta know already know ... and if not
--here goes again


nvidia hates you ... they would you like to 'shut up' - more so than any of the most vocal ATi's supporters

you do more *damage* to them and their reputation with your supposed "support" then then *anyone* at ATF ... they were obviously able to muzzle Rollo here ... not you

otoh, AMD likes your unreasoning nonsense and off-the-wall "hatred" for ati
... it brings them customers

 

[apoppin]

ANYWAY ... here's another 'break-NDA review'

http://it-review.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1314&Itemid=1

OK, off we go - it's time to start our ultimate-performance quest. After a few pretty long and hard-to-digest articles about R600 theory (before you even think about checking this article to its very end, make sure that you read our First and our Second R600 tech-related article, and then - it's time to go to practice. We've been playing with these cards for quite awhile now, and so far we managed to produce more then 800 scores when testing and comparing R600 in single-GPU and CrossFire mode with direct competition - 8800GTS 640 and 8800GTX (single-GPU and SLI). We've devided our journey in a couple of parts covering just about every platform worth mentioning - first, today - NVIDIA's NF590 SLI (4x and 8xAA today, 16xAA tomorrow, we have to retest to make sure that our scores are correct), Intel's 975, NVIDIA's 680i and, our personal OC favourite, RD600-based motherboard for Intel CPU's, a platform with no forseeable future, but well, we gotta have one showoff thing, so don't mind us....
To be completely honest with you, we went through quite a shuffle to find some of these old motherboards we haven't been using for months now. We sincerely don't remember the last time we used our M2N32-SLI Premium motherboard (sometime last year), while P5W Deluxe has "been around" from time to time. When we cleaned them up from a centimeter of dust they manage to collect we realized that they're still working without any problems. And we'll be pretty happy to retire them after this test, as well as the "specially-for-this-test-bought-6000+". Talking about wasting your resources...

So, here's the "short" list of hardware used in our insane amount of testing, all of the platforms, all of the components:
- ASUS P5W DH Deluxe
- EVGA 122-CK-NF68-A1
- ASUS M2N32-SLI Premium
- DFI ICFX3200T2R/G
- AMD X2 6000+
- Intel Core 2 Duo E6700
- OCZ Platinum XTC PC2-8500 (2x2x1GB)
- AMD Radeon HD2900XT
- OCZ and EVGA 8800GTX
- ASUS 8800GTS 640MB
- OCZ GameXstream PSU (new revision, rewired for 8-pin PCI-E connector)
- Corsair HX620
- OCZ Vindicator coolers
- WD RaptorX's 150GB
- Pioneer DVR-110BK's

- Dell 3007WFP 30" LCD monitor (up to 2560x1600)
- Benq FP241W (up to 1920x1200)

We used a couple of pretty-much regular settings - 4xAA/16xAF and 8xAA/16xAF, with three different resolutions, 1280x1024, 1920x1200 and 2560x1600. We figure this is gonna be more then enough to understand what kind of product this is and to pick your own card from NVIDIA it competes with. For starters, game tests only. So, take a deep breath and here we go.

Very special thanks to all of the companies that supported us while we invested roughly 100 working hours on these tests, so, this one goes to OCZ, Corsair, Intel, DFI, ASUS, WD and EVGA.

 

[apoppin]

i forgot their conclusion

There are two things we can conclude from our first round of testing on this pretty obsolete, but still the highest-end chipset on the market for Socket AM2. First thing, there are some very strange "happenings" with Company of Heroes that forced us to suspect some driver problems. It seems possible that AA/AF settings have some problems with CoH and Radeon HD2900XT, so take these results with a tiny bit of salt. We'll add sugar to "neutralize" a bit later. We noticed similar problems (a bit worse, though) with Radeon HD 2600/2400 when we played around with them last week, but they have entirely different set of drivers that aren't ready right now. Video - very soon.

Second thing and the one that we'll elaborate more - the fact of the matter is that NVIDIA's 8800 series is obviously a very well thought-of product. We constantly have a feeling that the overall bandwidth, frequency, GPU frequency, number of Stream Processors and their frequency, Shaders, everything - has been designed so it uses the maximum available power. It has more then enough juice to compete with AMD's Radeon HD2900XT and beat it in pretty much every single test. It's even more worrying is the fact that 8800GTS 640 comes out as a winner in most of the tests, with 2-100% difference in overall score (Supreme Commander at 1920x1200 and 8xAA/16xAF does a 100% better), apart from a couple of FEAR scores and 2560x1600 scores that work in favour of AMD's Radeon HD2900XT in three out of eight tests (at this time, let's put Company of Heroes aside because of the first reason). This is rather logical because of the incredible bandwidth AMD's product has so no wonder 8800GTS 640 can't compete with that.

We were unable to do CrossFire on NF590SLI (it's not supported) so it doesn't make any sense to compare these scores to SLI because it wouldn't be fair and it would be completely misleading. We'll clash CF vs SLI tomorrow when we publish the second part of our R600 journey - 975 testing. Tuesdays are all about 975 testing, on Mondays, we were feeling a bit old-school. We'll also use SLI scores on EVGA's 680i-based motherboard to compare. So, stay tuned and come back tomorrow. Don't miss it. Just don't. OK?

Greg will still be happy

 

[Gstanfor]

Well, it isn't like these issues haven't been blindingly obvious to those willing to see them. All I can say to ATi is better "luck" (read "design") next time -- if there is a next time, that is.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Well, it isn't like these issues haven't been blindingly obvious to those willing to see them. All I can say to ATi is better "luck" (read "design") next time -- if there is a next time, that is.

what ATi?

it's *gone* , Greg

it's *all* AMD

... and strangely the HD2900xt only does well in the most next-gen game - CoH

 

[Gstanfor]

ATi's still around - they'll be *gone* when AMD really feel intels pinch and divest themselves of a lead weight.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
ATi's still around - they'll be *gone* when AMD really feel intels pinch and divest themselves of a lead weight.

*impossible*

AMD has integrated ATi into itself ... they cannot be separated without killing AMD

AMD... is now a "graphics-based CPU company" ... that is their stated goal
and this is the *only* way they intend to compete with intel

get with the new programme

 

[LittleNemoNES]

I think that gstanfor suffers from a variation of Stockholm syndrome

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: gersson
I think that gstanfor suffers from a variation of Stockholm syndrome

actually he isn't *suffering*



it must be kind of "fun"
:Q

but any AMD fans can take consolation that the *results* of his rants is to turn people *away* from nvidia

and i want to see *next gen* games - DX10 - benched on the HD-XT ... it *appears* that it may have some type of "advantage" in these games ...
as it stands, the only *advantage* the HD-XT may have is 'price'

-- at least that is what the leaked DX10 benches seem to suggest ... along with CoH

 

[Gstanfor]

I can assure you I'm hostage to nobody, Gersson.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: apoppin

... and strangely the HD2900xt only does well in the most next-gen game - CoH

the "most next-gen" game? lol... how is that defined (it IS a fun game for sure tho)?

and didn't you read the part where they tossed out those results and said aa/af wasn't working properly with the drivers and would require further investigation?

i mean come on, yout x1950pro is faster. since STALKER is "fluid" on your rig with no slowdowns whatsoever with all settings max'd, it certainly must be faster than the 2900xt which averages 27fps - so you know it's min framerates are much lower.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: apoppin

... and strangely the HD2900xt only does well in the most next-gen game - CoH

the "most next-gen" game? lol... how is that defined (it IS a fun game for sure tho)?

and didn't you read the part where they tossed out those results and said aa/af wasn't working properly with the drivers and would require further investigation?

i mean come on, yout x1950pro is faster. since STALKER is "fluid" on your rig with no slowdowns whatsoever with all settings max'd, it certainly must be faster than the 2900xt which averages 27fps - so you know it's min framerates are much lower.

isn't CoH the *only* game with a DX10 patch?

as to STALKER .. they tested with 8xAA ... at a higher resolution than mine
... which *will* bring my rig to a "slideshow" standstill ... and yet adds ZERO to the visuals

:roll:

wtF is up with you?

 

[Gstanfor]

Well, given that R600's rops should handle single cycle 4x MSAA and it has a 512 bit memory bus, relatively speaking the load should be about the same as your 1950 which has single cycle 2x MSAA and a 256 bit memory bus.

If the performance gap between 1950 and R600 is roughly double (what we consumers like to see happen) then relatively speaking, STALKER (or any game) should perform about the same.

 

[apoppin]

i just ran G*D FRAPS ... first time in years

left my net connection on all my windows and other work open including ZA and AntiVir

Consistently got low 30s in all my scenes ... it would dip to the upper 20s [28/29] for the most *demanding* scenes ... and that would be for an 'instant'
[which i do notice]

so ... add 1 or 2 FPS if i 'run' it "optimized" ... smooth
... above 30 FPS

. . . and probably +5 FPS more because i prefer to run STALKER with HQ off .. just 8xAA
that's ALL "in game" settings completely to the Right ... *except* AA which is useless
[there is a 'placebo' effect with the blurriness]

i *know* smooth ... i could not handle ANY of FEAR dipping to the upper 20s
it is damn irritating ... unless it is very very 'rare'

 

[hardwareking]

only thing the 2900 xt wins in by any sort of significant margin is the COH even against a 8800 GTS
cud be bad drivers or cud be just plain a bad card