This place used to be quite different, no?

[dank69]

Now would you answer this question? Why do you think that is?

I'm sure our new "not a conservative" friend wouldn't respond with something about Democrats giving away free stuff.

 

[Bowfinger]

I would say that Bernie had just as much of the fan boys type. His social policies were very much empty and things like his education plan were impossible. I think the three main people (Trump, Clinton, Sanders) had many of the same types of followers in terms of following the group and not the actual ideas...

Absolutely agree that much of Sanders' support came from shameless fanboys. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I disagree that Sanders' policies were impossible. There's a whole continent that (mostly) proves otherwise. The real problem with Sanders' policies is that Americans aren't ready to embrace the costs of such policies, costs that Sanders largely glossed over. I supported him because I support his vision. As POTUS, he would have had the bully pulpit to spur serious conversations about moving to a more European model, especially for healthcare. America desperately needs some form of universal healthcare. We'll save money and get better overall outcomes. Sanders would have moved us in that direction.

Regardless, I'm not hugely interested in rehashing Clinton and the last election. I'll leave that to Republicans. They're still obsessed with her. They don't seem to realize she lost.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I would say that Bernie had just as much of the fan boys type. His social policies were very much empty and things like his education plan were impossible. I think the three main people (Trump, Clinton, Sanders) had many of the same types of followers in terms of following the group and not the actual ideas.

I cannot recall an election that was more about popularity/unpopularity and less about ideas and policy. I'm not very old though.

I think people misunderstand the value of a Bernie. The Republicans and Democrats would have done their damndest to prevent an outsider from making much progress and consequently, his more radical plans wouldn't see the light of day, but IMO those weren't of significance. What would be is the idea of a Bernie, someone who walked the streets with MKL while Hillary plays identity politics and Trump who might like to own a black or two. Bernie who is reasonably well off, not with a hundred million or more that magically fell into his lap while decrying the source of that wealth. Trump remains in a coma channeling demons.

He wouldn't get everything he wanted, but the idea of his desire for the people who do most of the living in this nation, is a powerful thing pronounced from the Office of the United States of America. That bully pulpit I mentioned would put pressure on Democrats to not be one-off Republicans kowtowing to those funding their war chests. It would pressure the "business as usual, don't rock the boat" people to actually get off their asses or perhaps more Bernies might go looking for their seats.

An idea is a powerful thing, and Bernie was one for hope and change, not only the status quo.

Where would it have ended? Not with Trump in all likelihood.

 

[Bowfinger]

I would have voted for just about any person on the planet if it meant defeating Trump. Please don't mistake the fact that I haven't seen any credible evidence that would have made me consider not voting for her means that I am some sort of Hillary zombie. However, since you have made the assertion that she had weaknesses that contributed to her defeat, perhaps you could enumerate a few of them that you think would justify not voting for her when not voting for her would mean that Trump would be our next President?

As we've discussed before, I voted for Clinton and I strongly disagree with those who voted for Trump or stayed home because they disliked Clinton. The phrase "cutting off your nose to spite your face" applies. That said, when I tried to discuss minor reservations about Clinton, there were several who attacked me for it, including you. I warned you at that time, a good two years ago, that you were going to drive away Sanders supporters and it could cost Clinton the election.

No, I'm not interested in rehashing those discussions. Water under the bridge. I'm looking forward.

 

[HomerJS]

Except they all vote Democrats - the ones that can vote anyway. You think people of color would vote for Republicans? You gone crazy?

They would if Republicans did 2 things.

1. Purge racists from their midst and stop placating and making it comfortable for them.
2. Address issues that are of concern to people of color.

They refuse to do either.

Republicans got almost 40% of the black vote during the time of Eisenhower. They would kill their first born to get those kind of numbers today.

 

[Bowfinger]

Not only did Clinton fans recognize her weakness (in some cases they were the first to point them out, on this forum) but they also recognized what the big picture was. Clinton wasn't running against Bernie, ted cruz, or jeb Bush, she was running against trump. If your feelings were so delicate that overzealous supporters made you change your mind, you might not be as smart as you think.

Boiled down, your argument is, "both sides". Complete and utter intellectual laziness.

No, that's not anywhere close to my argument. Read better. I just pointed out a specific behavioral similarity between the two camps' fans (and in my response to Realibrad, I include Sanders fanboys). That's it. Beyond that, Clinton and Trump are entirely different universes.

 

[realibrad]

Absolutely agree that much of Sanders' support came from shameless fanboys. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I disagree that Sanders' policies were impossible. There's a whole continent that (mostly) proves otherwise. The real problem with Sanders' policies is that Americans aren't ready to embrace the costs of such policies, costs that Sanders largely glossed over. I supported him because I support his vision. As POTUS, he would have had the bully pulpit to spur serious conversations about moving to a more European model, especially for healthcare. America desperately needs some form of universal healthcare. We'll save money and get better overall outcomes. Sanders would have moved us in that direction.

Regardless, I'm not hugely interested in rehashing Clinton and the last election. I'll leave that to Republicans. They're still obsessed with her. They don't seem to realize she lost.

Clinton is the boogeyman that the Right needs to keep up the Fear.

As for the Sanders education policy, it would not work the way he said it would. He wanted to give free college to 80% of the US population. No country on this planet even comes close to that. Any country that offers "free" college, greatly restricts who can get that. The expense is far beyond what he said would be needed to fund it. Clinton called him out on it, but he never had to respond as his run had other problems at that point.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

No, that's not anywhere close to my argument. Read better. I just pointed out a specific behavioral similarity between the two camps' fans (and in my response to Realibrad, I include Sanders fanboys). That's it. Beyond that, Clinton and Trump are entirely different universes.

He makes a very real point demonstrating a blind spot. Hillary did run against Bernie and the others, and there was much disdain shown. But what was sure to happen is that a Democrat was going to run against Trump. The one who had the greatest chance was Bernie and many polls over some length showed that to be a significant difference.

That being the case the desire for Hillary led to them picking the losing candidate, leading to Trump. This is part of the blame to be had I mentioned earlier. The common defense was "But Hillary beat Bernie". Indeed they won that battle then lost the war. One might ask, "Was supporting Hillary was worth Trump winning?"

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Clinton is the boogeyman that the Right needs to keep up the Fear.

As for the Sanders education policy, it would not work the way he said it would. He wanted to give free college to 80% of the US population. No country on this planet even comes close to that. Any country that offers "free" college, greatly restricts who can get that. The expense is far beyond what he said would be needed to fund it. Clinton called him out on it, but he never had to respond as his run had other problems at that point.

Hillary is merely a tool of distraction.

I don't believe Bernie would have his free education but his election might have led to means of reducing the burden of school debt and IMO would have been worth it.

 

[realibrad]

I think people misunderstand the value of a Bernie. The Republicans and Democrats would have done their damndest to prevent an outsider from making much progress and consequently, his more radical plans wouldn't see the light of day, but IMO those weren't of significance. What would be is the idea of a Bernie, someone who walked the streets with MKL while Hillary plays identity politics and Trump who might like to own a black or two. Bernie who is reasonably well off, not with a hundred million or more that magically fell into his lap while decrying the source of that wealth. Trump remains in a coma channeling demons.

He wouldn't get everything he wanted, but the idea of his desire for the people who do most of the living in this nation, is a powerful thing pronounced from the Office of the United States of America. That bully pulpit I mentioned would put pressure on Democrats to not be one-off Republicans kowtowing to those funding their war chests. It would pressure the "business as usual, don't rock the boat" people to actually get off their asses or perhaps more Bernies might go looking for their seats.

An idea is a powerful thing, and Bernie was one for hope and change, not only the status quo.

Where would it have ended? Not with Trump in all likelihood.

I think I agree with this. I think his ideas would not work, but he was willing to push for something different. I think on a personal level he was probably the best person out of the three as well.

 

[realibrad]

Hillary is merely a tool of distraction.

I don't believe Bernie would have his free education but his election might have led to means of reducing the burden of school debt and IMO would have been worth it.

Now she is a tool, but before, she had real problems. Less than Trump more than Sanders.

 

[Jhhnn]

As we've discussed before, I voted for Clinton and I strongly disagree with those who voted for Trump or stayed home because they disliked Clinton. The phrase "cutting off your nose to spite your face" applies. That said, when I tried to discuss minor reservations about Clinton, there were several who attacked me for it, including you. I warned you at that time, a good two years ago, that you were going to drive away Sanders supporters and it could cost Clinton the election.

No, I'm not interested in rehashing those discussions. Water under the bridge. I'm looking forward.

Nobody drove them away. They eagerly followed Russian trolls & bots in their vilification of Clinton. They were as readily deceived as Trumpsters. They even ignored Bernie's advice.

There never was any rational justification for it so don't pretend that there was. Hillary hate is an induced irrational state.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Nobody drove them away. They eagerly followed Russian trolls & bots in their vilification of Clinton. They were as readily deceived as Trumpsters. They even ignored Bernie's advice.

There never was any rational justification for it so don't pretend that there was. Hillary hate is an induced irrational state.

I look forward to her canonization.

 

[Victorian Gray]

You don't even see the irony in your post, do you?

Incoherence is now considered ironic?

 

[Jhhnn]

I look forward to her canonization.

Dodge away. Never question your own rationalizations.

 

[dank69]

As we've discussed before, I voted for Clinton and I strongly disagree with those who voted for Trump or stayed home because they disliked Clinton. The phrase "cutting off your nose to spite your face" applies. That said, when I tried to discuss minor reservations about Clinton, there were several who attacked me for it, including you. I warned you at that time, a good two years ago, that you were going to drive away Sanders supporters and it could cost Clinton the election.

No, I'm not interested in rehashing those discussions. Water under the bridge. I'm looking forward.

I think there is a world of difference between "minor reservations" and "weaknesses that contributed to her defeat." We all had minor reservations, and I seriously doubt I attacked you for having reservations. I would believe I attacked you if you implied that any of those reservations would be a logical reason to vote Trump or stay home, for any human being.

So which is it? Minor reservations or a list of a few of these weaknesses that "contributed to her defeat"?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Dodge away. Never question your own rationalizations.

Your mantra. We know that. You still managed to pick the candidate destined to lose while an alternative would have gone in with a significant lead in popularity. Hillary wasn't liked by a great many before Trump. She preached about Wall Street while becoming vastly wealthy in the process, benefiting from Wall Street.

She lived for identity politics. Obama mentioned that and Biden the Trumpette pointed out how uninspiring her campaign was. Not for you of course, but others and it cost her. Blame everyone else if you must, but sorry. Trump shot her in one foot as she did with the other. But everyone else is to blame. Ya, no.

 

[Noah Abrams]

Now would you answer this question? Why do you think that is?

Because GOP has become a cesspool of xenophobia. It’s quite disgusting really. People of color have no choice but to vote Dem. As I’ve said I find current GOP to be repugnant and I’m not here on this forum to advocate for it

 

[Noah Abrams]

Your mantra. We know that. You still managed to pick the candidate destined to lose while an alternative would have gone in with a significant lead in popularity. Hillary wasn't liked by a great many before Trump. She preached about Wall Street while becoming vastly wealthy in the process, benefiting from Wall Street.

She lived for identity politics. Obama mentioned that and Biden the Trumpette pointed out how uninspiring her campaign was. Not for you of course, but others and it cost her. Blame everyone else if you must, but sorry. Trump shot her in one foot as she did with the other. But everyone else is to blame. Ya, no.

I think the Mrs. recently stated that "they" were never going to let her win. Consistent with her psychological profile.

The vile creature in WH and the Clintons have a lot in common. Lets see

- Both guys serial philanderers.
- Both sham marriages.
- Narcissists. NPD actually.
- Infinite sense of entitlement
- Delusions of grandeur
- Corrupt
- Treat people working with them as crap. The Mrs especially is known for it and her foul mouth and insults. As I said, NPD. The Mr of course abused his power to prey on a young woman. The women's right feminist brigade supported him on that. Lets not even go into the vile creature.
- I never expected the Mrs. to fade away gracefully after her election defeat, and she did not disappoint. Such folks have no grace in them to begin with. Vile creature will do the same after he is dumped in 2020 (I am 200 percent certain of this)
So on and so forth.

I don't support socialism but Bernie is the kind of guy I would like to shake hands with, talk with - I think he travels in public transport at least sometimes. But the Mrs, I wouldn't even want to look at her in person.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think the Mrs. recently stated that "they" were never going to let her win. Consistent with her psychological profile.

The vile creature in WH and the Clintons have a lot in common. Lets see

- Both guys serial philanderers.
- Both sham marriages.
- Narcissists. NPD actually.
- Infinite sense of entitlement
- Delusions of grandeur
- Corrupt
- Treat people working with them as crap. The Mrs especially is known for it and her foul mouth and insults. As I said, NPD. The Mr of course abused his power to prey on a young woman. The women's right feminist brigade supported him on that. Lets not even go into the vile creature.
- I never expected the Mrs. to fade away gracefully after her election defeat, and she did not disappoint. Such folks have no grace in them to begin with. Vile creature will do the same after he is dumped in 2020 (I am 200 percent certain of this)
So on and so forth.

I don't support socialism but Bernie is the kind of guy I would like to shake hands with, talk with - I think he travels in public transport at least sometimes. But the Mrs, I wouldn't even want to look at her in person.

Funny thing about my wife. She watched Hillary for a bit and her ultimate judgement was "I don't think so". She's a quite adept in this among other things. Too smart to be President and no tolerance for BS so sorry she's not running

 

[Noah Abrams]

Funny thing about my wife. She watched Hillary for a bit and her ultimate judgement was "I don't think so". She's a quite adept in this among other things. Too smart to be President and no tolerance for BS so sorry she's not running

The Clintons are the very embodiment of the utter hypocrisy and corruption in American politics. What the faithful disciples of the left are unable or unwilling to recognize (as they say denial is not just a river in Egypt) is that this had a huge role in vile creature getting to the WH. They just will not recognize it and blame a gazillion other things. In that respect, they are quite similar to the faithful of the vile creature, who too suffer from the same persecution complex.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The Clintons are the very embodiment of the utter hypocrisy and corruption in American politics. What the faithful disciples of the left are unable or unwilling to recognize (as they say denial is not just a river in Egypt) is that this had a huge role in vile creature getting to the WH. They just will not recognize it and blame a gazillion other things. In that respect, they are quite similar to the faithful of the vile creature, who too suffer from the same persecution complex.

To be clear, I'm not a fan of Hillary, I do not trust her with the power of the office, but people will make claims that make no sense no matter what one thinks like Uranium One. I looked into what was possible and what happened and one must be very careful about making false claims as some have in dealing with someone we'd rather avoid. And while I don't trust her as far as I toss her many invent reasons to divert from Republican troubles and I don't approve of that.

 

[Jhhnn]

Your mantra. We know that. You still managed to pick the candidate destined to lose while an alternative would have gone in with a significant lead in popularity. Hillary wasn't liked by a great many before Trump. She preached about Wall Street while becoming vastly wealthy in the process, benefiting from Wall Street.

She lived for identity politics. Obama mentioned that and Biden the Trumpette pointed out how uninspiring her campaign was. Not for you of course, but others and it cost her. Blame everyone else if you must, but sorry. Trump shot her in one foot as she did with the other. But everyone else is to blame. Ya, no.

I love it. Hillary's lack of perfection justifies Trump, right?

I never realized how nutty my fellow Americans were until that happened. Yet you go on as if it's not the result of extremely effective agitprop spread over decades making them that way. It's utterly irrational.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I love it. Hillary's lack of perfection justifies Trump, right?

I never realized how nutty my fellow Americans were until that happened. Yet you go on as if it's not the result of extremely effective agitprop spread over decades making them that way. It's utterly irrational.

I look at it this way because it's true. For you so loved Hillary that you tossed your most likely to win candidate. Bernie's lack of being Hillary justified Trump. BUT BUT BERNIE. Buttery Bernies?

Oh yeah, that wasn't just me saying that but being up on things you must know that. You went with the lesser of the two in the public arena and damn people who didn't do that too.

Hey people make mistakes. Some picked Trump and you picked the Hillary and not the more likely winner. Maybe next time the Dems will learn, or some of them at least.

 

[Noah Abrams]

Is Nader still being blamed for Al Gore’s loss? How dare anyone run except the anointed one!!! We have decided and you the sheep have to follow us.