This place used to be quite different, no?

[Noah Abrams]

Hey guy, 2/3rds of Republicans support citizenship for DACA recipients. If sharing a policy with the extreme right wing of the already right wing party doesn't make you a conservative, I don't know what would.

More proof of your idiocy. Labeling people by polls. Do you know a large number of legal immigrants, or others who are here on visa also oppose legalization of illegals? No you don't? Probably because you don't really know many people of different color or background (I am fortunate enough to be not in that isolated position) , and you just lap up the usual stuff. So all those people of color are extreme right wingers too right? Like I said, more proof of your idiocy. Please stop, you are embarrassing yourself.

 

[dank69]

More proof of your idiocy. Labeling people by polls. Do you know a large number of legal immigrants, or others who are here on visa also oppose legalization of illegals? No you don't? Probably because you don't really know many people of different color or background (I am fortunate enough to be not in that isolated position) , and you just lap up the usual stuff. So all those people of color are extreme right wingers too right? Like I said, more proof of your idiocy. Please stop, you are embarrassing yourself.

Do you even know the difference between DACA recipients and other illegal aliens? It seems not since you seem to be conflating legalization of illegals with legalization of DACA recipients.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yes, that undoubtedly qualifies as "blaming the liberals." Haha. Also I think stretching my actual stance that "conservatives own this" into "imbuing myself with the qualities of an infallible Christ" might fit the definition of another straw man, but whatever. It's not like you are interested in actually addressing my posts anyway as evidenced by your complete elimination of most of my previous one so you could only focus on the small part you thought you could counter.

I am interested in many things, in this instance what lies behind the pasteboard mask. Nevertheless, everyone is responsible for themselves and the choices they make. If you wish to say you or yours plays no part except for good then I will leave you alone with that. If hate is in your nature then that will be your fate. We walk different paths. Peace to you.

 

[Bowfinger]

Well here's a thing. The Dems played their part in the loss. If you wish to imbue yourself with the qualities of an infallible Christ, do so by all means. The Very Sad Trump supporter, Biden, or is it the CrookedBiden? Hard to know. Anyway, Biden pointed out some flaws in Hillary's approach, and Obama was more oblique cautioning about relying too heavily on identity politics, Hillary's projected image. These things made her a questionable candidate by important Dems in the party. But hubris was the response to criticism, with attacks on those who didn't care for her. Note not Trump supporters, but those who didn't become part of her Faithful Tribe. If you don't stand for us you stand against us and America, for Trump and racists?

And I do blame elements of the Democrats and some who claim to be liberals because guess what? They played a part in their own defeat.

But of course, that means I embrace Trump or did? Nope. I never liked the man and never supported him. What I did not know is the degree of damage he would cause and honest people will admit they didn't either.

BTW when it mattered in my state, the guaranteed Dem supporting state? I voted for the liberal, Bernie. Why? Because of the power of the Bully Pulpit, he had the ear of the people and that puts pressure on Congress. He had a better chance of winning the general because virtually every indicator showed he'd win against Trump. Lose against Hillary, but beat Trump.

The partisan hacks went with someone already with a handicap and a history to attack.

Yeah, the "left" owned that, or perhaps the Dems who like to call themselves liberal.

Trump? He owes the nation for whatever he has done and if he or others engaged in illegal activities they should be tried not in Congress alone but by a judge and jury just the same as any other, and the harshest penalty given. His white supremacists should be scorned and accountability by EVERYONE in office given without excuses. No campaign funds to pay for sex abuse compensation, Republican or not. That's not the half of that.

Now if that's "blaming the liberals" in your mind then so be it.

Well said.

 

[Noah Abrams]

Do you even know the difference between DACA recipients and other illegal aliens? It seems not since you seem to be conflating legalization of illegals with legalization of DACA recipients.

Ok Professor. Did you not know that DACA people were illegals once? . By the way, what I said about naturalized citizens, green card holders, visa holders - if you actually knew folks like these, from countries say Vietnam, India, Pakistan, Lebanon, China, Brazil, and so on - you would find that they strongly oppose giving any kind of permanent status to DACA people. Extreme right wingers?

 

[dank69]

I am interested in many things, in this instance what lies behind the pasteboard mask. Nevertheless, everyone is responsible for themselves and the choices they make. If you wish to say you or yours plays no part except for good then I will leave you alone with that. If hate is in your nature then that will be your fate. We walk different paths. Peace to you.

Another straw man is a fitting end to this sidebar.

 

[Bowfinger]

If you still think I am a conservative (and whatever that means for you), then you Sir, are an idiot. I think it would be useless to engage with you. Please continue to live in your imaginary liberal utopia which benefits us all. If you find a time machine, please go back to Soviet Union in the year 1977, where you will find policies that benefited us all. Thank you.

If I may offer a quick observation, actions speak louder than words. While you assert you are not a conservative, you have an uncanny knack for consistently repeating GOP talking points. Make of that what you will.

 

[ivwshane]

It wasn't loaded with unfounded personal insults so 404 on irony. I wasn't racist, xenophobia, sexist, or homophobic either in my posting. Wow! Some claim that is impossible.

It comes down to people trying to bully others off the forums with a constant barrage of unfounded nonsense. I enjoy making the useful idiots from the left get triggered when presented with the truth.

Lol, I'll take that as a hard 'no' that you don't see the irony in your posts.

 

[Bowfinger]

Ok Professor. Did you not know that DACA people were illegals once? . By the way, what I said about naturalized citizens, green card holders, visa holders - if you actually knew folks like these, from countries say Vietnam, India, Pakistan, Lebanon, China, Brazil, and so on - you would find that they strongly oppose giving any kind of permanent status to DACA people. Extreme right wingers?

Exhibit A

 

[Noah Abrams]

If I may offer a quick observation, actions speak louder than words. While you assert you are not a conservative, you have an uncanny knack for consistently repeating GOP talking points. Make of that what you will.

Saying that police are a bunch of lazy, bloated bellies good for nothing idiots - is that a GOP talking point? (no that does not mean every time a black person is arrested, I scream racism)

Saying that we have no business invading other countries and causing suffering, is that a GOP talking point?

That our Presidents are most likely war criminals, is that a GOP talking point?

That we worship police and military for nothing, is that a GOP talking point?

That the term patriotism is used as a club to hit your opponents who don't agree with war mongering, is that a GOP talking point?

That the current GOP is as morally corrupt as any entity could be, is that a GOP talking point?

I can go on and on...

 

[dank69]

Ok Professor. Did you not know that DACA people were illegals once? . By the way, what I said about naturalized citizens, green card holders, visa holders - if you actually knew folks like these, from countries say Vietnam, India, Pakistan, Lebanon, China, Brazil, and so on - you would find that they strongly oppose giving any kind of permanent status to DACA people. Extreme right wingers?

Actually, professor, DACA people are currently illegal immigrants. Maybe you should take a few seconds to Google what DACA people are before you make more stupid mistakes.

Secondly, while you are at it, please post up a source for your claim that legal immigrants oppose a path to citizenship for DACA recipients. I can't find any polls indicating this.

Thirdly, when I think of Vietnam, India, Pakistan, Lebanon, China, etc. I don't exactly think "liberal paradise." What? Do you think it isn't possible for people of color to be conservatives? That would be some might fine independent thinking there, pardner.

 

[dank69]

Saying that police are a bunch of lazy, bloated bellies good for nothing idiots - is that a GOP talking point? (no that does not mean every time a black person is arrested, I scream racism)

Saying that we have no business invading other countries and causing suffering, is that a GOP talking point?

That our Presidents are most likely war criminals, is that a GOP talking point?

That we worship police and military for nothing, is that a GOP talking point?

That the term patriotism is used as a club to hit your opponents who don't agree with war mongering, is that a GOP talking point?

That the current GOP is as morally corrupt as any entity could be, is that a GOP talking point?

I can go on and on...

Do you know the difference between the GOP and "conservatives"? Do you know there are fiscal conservatives and social conservatives and all different types of conservatives? Do you know that they all have only one thing in common?

 

[dank69]

Well said.

Ugh, you Bernie Bros... I don't understand how a smart guy like you could get so twisted up.

 

[Amused]

This forum has always leaned more towards the left, and nothing wrong with that. But I seem to remember that there used to be a much more robust presence of right leaning people. I am not talking just the usual right wingers - who are just as tiring to listen to as their left wing counterparts, both parroting the party lines ad nauseam.

If I remember correctly, there used to be some libertarian types here. And/or other people with more varied, and nuanced views. But now frankly, to use a crude term, it seems like a liberal circle jerk. Or is my memory playing tricks with me?

I've always been center right with a libertarian tilt. However, right now a delusional con man has taken my country and an entire party has mainstreamed batshit to dupe people into accepting authoritarianism. So for me, ideology is pointless when you're fighting just to survive.

For me, there are only two sides to the current debate: Sanity, and Trump supporters. Period. Get Trump out of there and have the right return batshit to the fringes and we can return to the luxury of having an ideology.

 

[Noah Abrams]

Thirdly, when I think of Vietnam, India, Pakistan, Lebanon, China, etc. I don't exactly think "liberal paradise." What? Do you think it isn't possible for people of color to be conservatives? That would be some might fine independent thinking there, pardner.

Except they all vote Democrats - the ones that can vote anyway. You think people of color would vote for Republicans? You gone crazy?

 

[umbrella39]

So ProfJohn is back with sock Geosurface in the side car...

 

[dank69]

Except they all vote Democrats - the ones that can vote anyway. You think people of color would vote for Republicans? You gone crazy?

You are dodging most of my questions.

Maybe you should go back and address them before we move on to your poor grasp of absolutes.

 

[brycejones]

It comes down to people trying to bully others off the forums with a constant barrage of unfounded nonsense. I enjoy making the useful idiots from the left get triggered when presented with the truth.

By "truth" are you referring to your posting of unsupported assertions as facts? Or is this when you link to articles you claim say one thing when in fact they say the opposite? Just trying to understand your definition of "truth" here.

 

[Bowfinger]

Ugh, you Bernie Bros... I don't understand how a smart guy like you could get so twisted up.

Whereas I understand too well how a cult of personality works. The Clinton fan boys and Trump fan boys share many similarities, most notably an inability to recognize or discuss any flaws in their respective idols. Those who dare to suggest even trivial areas for improvement must be mercilessly attacked.

Clinton had many great strengths, but she also had weaknesses that hurt her candidacy and ultimately contributed to her defeat. Clinton fans not only wouldn't hear it, they doubled down by driving away those who wouldn't drink the Kool-Aid too. Your (collective) hubris cost Clinton votes, perhaps votes that would have made the difference.

 

[realibrad]

Whereas I understand too well how a cult of personality works. The Clinton fan boys and Trump fan boys share many similarities, most notably an inability to recognize or discuss any flaws in their respective idols. Those who dare to suggest even trivial areas for improvement must be mercilessly attacked.

Clinton had many great strengths, but she also had weaknesses that hurt her candidacy and ultimately contributed to her defeat. Clinton fans not only wouldn't hear it, they doubled down by driving away those who wouldn't drink the Kool-Aid too. Your (collective) hubris cost Clinton votes, perhaps votes that would have made the difference.

I would say that Bernie had just as much of the fan boys type. His social policies were very much empty and things like his education plan were impossible. I think the three main people (Trump, Clinton, Sanders) had many of the same types of followers in terms of following the group and not the actual ideas.

I cannot recall an election that was more about popularity/unpopularity and less about ideas and policy. I'm not very old though.

 

[Bowfinger]

Saying that police are a bunch of lazy, bloated bellies good for nothing idiots - is that a GOP talking point? (no that does not mean every time a black person is arrested, I scream racism)

Saying that we have no business invading other countries and causing suffering, is that a GOP talking point?

That our Presidents are most likely war criminals, is that a GOP talking point?

That we worship police and military for nothing, is that a GOP talking point?

That the term patriotism is used as a club to hit your opponents who don't agree with war mongering, is that a GOP talking point?

That the current GOP is as morally corrupt as any entity could be, is that a GOP talking point?

I can go on and on...

/shrug

Again, actions speak louder than words. It's easy to make such statements in the abstract. My observation is that when you're actually debating someone, you consistently fall to common GOP talking points. I'm not tracking your posts, so I concede I may have missed a multitude of counterexamples. If so, it seems like others missed them too.

It honestly doesn't matter to me. I was just explaining how one could think you're a conservative (i.e., a Republican, since conservatives and Republicans have little in common today).

 

[Jhhnn]

As a frame of reference, this country slid "right" with trickle down Reaganomics in the 80s and has not yet recovered its senses to fix the damage wrought by the more... conservative economic policy. It is therefore difficult to appreciate anyone's slide "further left" when it has resulted in literally nothing. Reagan's policy still rules Washington DC and our people are still suffering for it.

There may be greater push back to try and fix it, there may be greater cultural division and fighting... we may be galvanized further from each other, but the ruling economic policy of this nation has not been restored or wrested from conservative control in nearly 40 years. Prevailing Democrat VS Republican leadership is a wrestle over how little to help our people. In the end, even winning would result in utter failure.

It is going to take a sweeping change to push off from the conservatism of the 80s, and then beyond to improve upon our New Deal and post-war policy. Capitalism has evolved, but our policy has been stuck in the mud and leaves more people behind every year. Labor loses more value every year but we still cling to old ideas. Forgive me if progress seems foreign to our nation, but I would not call it "sliding left". Those are Americans sinking into an abyss and crying for help. I implore us all to hear them, and discuss what to do about it.

Apologies, if the mythical bootstraps will not suffice.

Well said. We demanded more from our Capitalists back then. Reagan convinced us we'd actually get more if we'd just take what they give us, that it'll all trickle down. It's never worked that way & never will. Greed at the top has no limit. As individuals, working people have very little economic power. We must move to a higher level of thinking & organization to achieve it. That's largely why we created the Govt of the People.

 

[dank69]

Whereas I understand too well how a cult of personality works. The Clinton fan boys and Trump fan boys share many similarities, most notably an inability to recognize or discuss any flaws in their respective idols. Those who dare to suggest even trivial areas for improvement must be mercilessly attacked.

Clinton had many great strengths, but she also had weaknesses that hurt her candidacy and ultimately contributed to her defeat. Clinton fans not only wouldn't hear it, they doubled down by driving away those who wouldn't drink the Kool-Aid too. Your (collective) hubris cost Clinton votes, perhaps votes that would have made the difference.

I would have voted for just about any person on the planet if it meant defeating Trump. Please don't mistake the fact that I haven't seen any credible evidence that would have made me consider not voting for her means that I am some sort of Hillary zombie. However, since you have made the assertion that she had weaknesses that contributed to her defeat, perhaps you could enumerate a few of them that you think would justify not voting for her when not voting for her would mean that Trump would be our next President?

 

[ivwshane]

Whereas I understand too well how a cult of personality works. The Clinton fan boys and Trump fan boys share many similarities, most notably an inability to recognize or discuss any flaws in their respective idols. Those who dare to suggest even trivial areas for improvement must be mercilessly attacked.

Clinton had many great strengths, but she also had weaknesses that hurt her candidacy and ultimately contributed to her defeat. Clinton fans not only wouldn't hear it, they doubled down by driving away those who wouldn't drink the Kool-Aid too. Your (collective) hubris cost Clinton votes, perhaps votes that would have made the difference.

Not only did Clinton fans recognize her weakness (in some cases they were the first to point them out, on this forum) but they also recognized what the big picture was. Clinton wasn't running against Bernie, ted cruz, or jeb Bush, she was running against trump. If your feelings were so delicate that overzealous supporters made you change your mind, you might not be as smart as you think.

Boiled down, your argument is, "both sides". Complete and utter intellectual laziness.

 

[hal2kilo]

Except they all vote Democrats - the ones that can vote anyway. You think people of color would vote for Republicans? You gone crazy?

Now would you answer this question? Why do you think that is?