This is what is going to happen to all meme cryptocurrencies

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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
12,130
6,755
136
I think the final price for bitcoin will settle somewhere close to $0. I'm not sure when, but that seems to be the end case as before it had at least one quality use, to commit crimes, but now it appears that law enforcement is able to track bitcoin transactions to some extent so that use case is undermined.

I think the fact that people cannot define a single useful purpose for cryptocurrencies implies to me this is all a giant scam.
Also the claim it'd be a guard against inflation. We see how well that is working out.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
24,047
2,262
126
I think the fact that people cannot define a single useful purpose for cryptocurrencies implies to me this is all a giant scam.
I'll take that a step further. The fact that people feel the need to even define its purpose (repeatedly) indicates it is just a giant scam.
 
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DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
574
559
136
I think the final price for bitcoin will settle somewhere close to $0. I'm not sure when, but that seems to be the end case as before it had at least one quality use, to commit crimes, but now it appears that law enforcement is able to track bitcoin transactions to some extent so that use case is undermined.

I think the fact that people cannot define a single useful purpose for cryptocurrencies implies to me this is all a giant scam.
Honestly I think the bitcoin zombie is gonna lumber on unless it drops to something like sub-10k when a lot of leveraged crypto positions get margin called. There's too much hype invested in it, too many outright conmen and useful idiots insisting it's really the currency of the future (despite being stuck at seven transactions a second).

In any rational world, it would've been thrown in the trash long ago.
 
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nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,267
6,828
136
I think the final price for bitcoin will settle somewhere close to $0. I'm not sure when, but that seems to be the end case as before it had at least one quality use, to commit crimes, but now it appears that law enforcement is able to track bitcoin transactions to some extent so that use case is undermined.

I think the fact that people cannot define a single useful purpose for cryptocurrencies implies to me this is all a giant scam.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is essentially true for all currencies that have ever existed, minus the time that they're actively in circulation.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
76,556
32,181
136
I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is essentially true for all currencies that have ever existed, minus the time that they're actively in circulation.
Well sure, but all other currencies have inherent value that Bitcoin lacks so Bitcoin was always headed for $0.
 
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nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,267
6,828
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Well sure, but all other currencies have inherent value that Bitcoin lacks so Bitcoin was always headed for $0.
Inherent value in a currency means that it can be used as a store of value and a medium of exchange, both of which bitcoin currently has. The speculation in the potential store of value has greatly inflated it, but it still has a store of value function - it's worth more now than it was up until about a year and a half ago, when all assets have been bubbled into the stratosphere. And it can be used, right now, as a medium of exchange and will be usable as a medium of exchange until it hits zero. Like every other currency that has ever existed.

I'm not getting into the quagmire of discussing whether Bitcoin is a smart currency, or a moral currency, or a better currency than gold, silver, tulip bulbs, beads, Deutschmarks, etc. All currencies have pros and cons. I think cryptocurrencies in general have a lot of cons that make them inherently speculative in nature, and if you treat cryptocurrencies as you would a casino, or futures contracts, than you're probably going to reduce your inherent risk when "investing" in them. If you're buying Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies as a hedge against "inflation" of the dollar or whatever, you may or may not make some money depending on when you bought in and if/when you cash out. If you're "investing" in them because you think the dollar is going to fail and cryptocurrency is going to be the unofficial currency of Galt's Gulch then you're probably just a mark.

That said, since collapse is already baked into everything, digital currencies are only going to be useful when electricity is cheap and available to make transactions ubiquitous and easy. Once electricity itself becomes scarce, or even just less reliable, how much of your wealth do you want to be tied up in a currency that requires stable electricity access? That's the real problem that is looming for crypto/digital currencies.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
76,556
32,181
136
Inherent value in a currency means that it can be used as a store of value and a medium of exchange, both of which bitcoin currently has. The speculation in the potential store of value has greatly inflated it, but it still has a store of value function - it's worth more now than it was up until about a year and a half ago, when all assets have been bubbled into the stratosphere. And it can be used, right now, as a medium of exchange and will be usable as a medium of exchange until it hits zero. Like every other currency that has ever existed.

I'm not getting into the quagmire of discussing whether Bitcoin is a smart currency, or a moral currency, or a better currency than gold, silver, tulip bulbs, beads, Deutschmarks, etc. All currencies have pros and cons. I think cryptocurrencies in general have a lot of cons that make them inherently speculative in nature, and if you treat cryptocurrencies as you would a casino, or futures contracts, than you're probably going to reduce your inherent risk when "investing" in them. If you're buying Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies as a hedge against "inflation" of the dollar or whatever, you may or may not make some money depending on when you bought in and if/when you cash out. If you're "investing" in them because you think the dollar is going to fail and cryptocurrency is going to be the unofficial currency of Galt's Gulch then you're probably just a mark.

That said, since collapse is already baked into everything, digital currencies are only going to be useful when electricity is cheap and available to make transactions ubiquitous and easy. Once electricity itself becomes scarce, or even just less reliable, how much of your wealth do you want to be tied up in a currency that requires stable electricity access? That's the real problem that is looming for crypto/digital currencies.
What I’m saying is it will prove not to be a store of value at all as it will go to $0. Not at some point far in the future when society collapses, but in the relatively near future.

Anything can be used as a medium of exchange - but Bitcoin has no inherent value any different than giant stone discs or whatever, unlike all other currencies which have inherent value.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
11,006
7,916
146
Bitcoin has no inherent value any different than giant stone discs or whatever, unlike all other currencies which have inherent value.
But... They don't. Their value is only agreed upon via markets. If everyone tomorrow exchanged their dollars for yen, euro, or donuts, it'd be worth nothing, just like BTC.

Minerals like gold have inherent value because they can be used for something other than trade. Only thing dollars can be used for is kindling, and it's pretty terrible at that.
 

DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
574
559
136
Inherent value in a currency means that it can be used as a store of value and a medium of exchange, both of which bitcoin currently has. The speculation in the potential store of value has greatly inflated it, but it still has a store of value function - it's worth more now than it was up until about a year and a half ago, when all assets have been bubbled into the stratosphere. And it can be used, right now, as a medium of exchange and will be usable as a medium of exchange until it hits zero. Like every other currency that has ever existed.

I'm not getting into the quagmire of discussing whether Bitcoin is a smart currency, or a moral currency, or a better currency than gold, silver, tulip bulbs, beads, Deutschmarks, etc. All currencies have pros and cons. I think cryptocurrencies in general have a lot of cons that make them inherently speculative in nature, and if you treat cryptocurrencies as you would a casino, or futures contracts, than you're probably going to reduce your inherent risk when "investing" in them. If you're buying Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies as a hedge against "inflation" of the dollar or whatever, you may or may not make some money depending on when you bought in and if/when you cash out. If you're "investing" in them because you think the dollar is going to fail and cryptocurrency is going to be the unofficial currency of Galt's Gulch then you're probably just a mark.

That said, since collapse is already baked into everything, digital currencies are only going to be useful when electricity is cheap and available to make transactions ubiquitous and easy. Once electricity itself becomes scarce, or even just less reliable, how much of your wealth do you want to be tied up in a currency that requires stable electricity access? That's the real problem that is looming for crypto/digital currencies.
I think you're being extremely generous to cryptocurrencies, honestly. You're ignoring the very glaring issues that set them apart from other currencies.
  • Crypto hasn't functioned significantly as a currency for years. Bitcoin in particular has had fees high enough to render it useless for virtually all transactions since 2014, Ethereum isn't much better. PoS coins scale better, but still suck compared to anything else. And again, we're talking about a currency scaling poorly.
  • Crypto's user experience sucks ass. Irrevocable keys without any kind of granular permissions so that, if you are ever compromised in any way, you lose all your coins irrecoverably. Crypto hacks are more like bank robberies where they always get away.
  • The biggest of all, crypto entirely exists to allow trustless decentralized immutable transactions, and they just aren't useful. That's it, that's all crypto does and it trades tremendous computational efficiency to do it. And the best use-case we have is dodging international sanctions.
It's just terribly ill-suited for virtually every application, in a way that makes it damn near impossible to compare to other currencies.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
14,934
12,027
136
Someone tell me where I can use Bitcoin as a currency in my day to day life. Eating out, the mortgage, car insurance, groceries, buying anything?

It's a fucking scam

It's backed by nothing. It is not stock in a company that makes things. It's useless
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
11,006
7,916
146
Someone tell me where I can use Bitcoin as a currency in my day to day life. Eating out, the mortgage, car insurance, groceries, buying anything?

It's a fucking scam

It's backed by nothing. It is not stock in a company that makes things. It's useless
I can't pay for shit with euros, is that currency a scam too?
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
14,934
12,027
136
I can't pay for shit with euros, is that currency a scam too?
That's a terrible comparison.

Does a currency need to be a unified worldwide currency to have value? No.

Having to use a different country's currency when you visit is not comparable to Bitcoin who does nothing for most people all over the world except speculators.

Euros have value, they can be converted to dollars and spent anywhere in the US.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
11,006
7,916
146
That's a terrible comparison.

Does a currency need to be a unified worldwide currency to have value? No.

Having to use a different country's currency when you visit is not comparable to Bitcoin who does nothing for most people all over the world except speculators.

Euros have value, they can be converted to dollars and spent anywhere in the US.
And there's a shitload of places on the Internet you can spend BTC, I've done it many times. BTC can also be converted into dollars and be spent anywhere in the US. All fiat currencies are functionally identical unless manipulated by a government.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
76,556
32,181
136
But... They don't. Their value is only agreed upon via markets. If everyone tomorrow exchanged their dollars for yen, euro, or donuts, it'd be worth nothing, just like BTC.

Minerals like gold have inherent value because they can be used for something other than trade. Only thing dollars can be used for is kindling, and it's pretty terrible at that.
Not true - every fiat currency has inherent value. If you don’t believe me try paying your US tax bill in bushels of wheat.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
29,628
6,239
136
Not true - every fiat currency has inherent value. If you don’t believe me try paying your US tax bill in bushels of wheat.
it's only valuable because a body with a monopoly on the use of force deems it to be a universal form of trade and other people are willing to accept it.

otherwise, it's just a bunch of fancy paper with dead presidents on it.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
76,556
32,181
136
it's only valuable because a body with a monopoly on the use of force deems it to be a universal form of trade and other people are willing to accept it.

otherwise, it's just a bunch of fancy paper with dead presidents on it.
Having something so I’m not imprisoned or killed sounds pretty valuable to me.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
14,934
12,027
136
And there's a shitload of places on the Internet you can spend BTC, I've done it many times. BTC can also be converted into dollars and be spent anywhere in the US. All fiat currencies are functionally identical unless manipulated by a government.
Not even close to being comparable. Great , you can buy some stuff on the interwebs with Bitcoin . The amount of places you can use Bitcoin on the internet is probably 0.00001% of where people spend their money .

The vast majority of people cannot run their day-to-day lives or pay their bills or anything, with Bitcoin. Bitcoin transaction fees are high and it's just too volatile to be a reliable currency for day-to-day use anyways. It's nothing like the stability of fiat currencies in first world countries


It's just a ridiculous comparison. It's nonsensical.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
11,006
7,916
146
Not true - every fiat currency has inherent value. If you don’t believe me try paying your US tax bill in bushels of wheat.
Things we agree on aren't inherent. Things that have a use to aliens are inherently valuable.
it's only valuable because a body with a monopoly on the use of force deems it to be a universal form of trade and other people are willing to accept it.

otherwise, it's just a bunch of fancy paper with dead presidents on it.
Yes, thank you. It's pieces of cloth and useless metal we've agreed are useful. The fact that you generally don't even pay with those physical objects magnifies my point further. It's digital doodads, same as any other digital doodad. Just a different value assigned to it by a different group of people.

Ya'll know like, all of human society is made up, right?
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
14,934
12,027
136
What gives Bitcoin value? It's just a bunch of people that say it has this value and there's nothing to back it up. It's imaginary.

At least Fiat currency, while made up, has nation states backing that currencies value and have shown to be way way more stable than Bitcoin. If the dollar was as volatile as Bitcoin, the entire economy would have crashed and we'd be in dystopia.

How is Bitcoin valuable when people can't use it to live? It has no value except as a speculative investment or for a pittance, a teeny tiny fraction of transactions or things you can purchase on on such a minor amount of websites that most people aren't using.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
11,006
7,916
146
What gives Bitcoin value? It's just a bunch of people that say it has this value and there's nothing to back it up. It's imaginary.
Yes, just like all fiat currencies.
At least Fiat currency, while made up, has nation states backing that currencies value and have shown to be way way more stable than Bitcoin. If the dollar was as volatile as Bitcoin, the entire economy would have crashed and we'd be in dystopia.
I don't disagree, doesn't change the fact it's something we collectively agree on. That's not what 'inherent value' means.
How is Bitcoin valuable when people can't use it to live? It has no value except as a speculative investment or for a pittance, a teeny tiny fraction of transactions or things you can purchase on on such a minor amount of websites that most people aren't using.
Yes, it has marginal usefulness. If everyone agreed it was useful, everyone would start using it, and it'd be as useful as any other fiat currency, just like every currency humanity has ever developed. It's bottlecaps all the way down.
 

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