This is what is going to happen to all meme cryptocurrencies

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nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,267
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I think you're being extremely generous to cryptocurrencies, honestly. You're ignoring the very glaring issues that set them apart from other currencies.
  • Crypto hasn't functioned significantly as a currency for years. Bitcoin in particular has had fees high enough to render it useless for virtually all transactions since 2014, Ethereum isn't much better. PoS coins scale better, but still suck compared to anything else. And again, we're talking about a currency scaling poorly.
  • Crypto's user experience sucks ass. Irrevocable keys without any kind of granular permissions so that, if you are ever compromised in any way, you lose all your coins irrecoverably. Crypto hacks are more like bank robberies where they always get away.
  • The biggest of all, crypto entirely exists to allow trustless decentralized immutable transactions, and they just aren't useful. That's it, that's all crypto does and it trades tremendous computational efficiency to do it. And the best use-case we have is dodging international sanctions.
It's just terribly ill-suited for virtually every application, in a way that makes it damn near impossible to compare to other currencies.
I think I already stated that cryptocurrencies should be treated as a casino, or as a futures contract. Pure speculation plays that also function as currencies.

I'm not trying to be generous, anyone who has exchanged governmental fiat currencies into cryptocurrencies on cold wallets are probably shitting themselves in terror. That's what happens when you gamble and your position becomes less valuable. But this also happens with people who speculate on Forex with fiat currencies, so it's nothing new.

What I’m saying is it will prove not to be a store of value at all as it will go to $0. Not at some point far in the future when society collapses, but in the relatively near future.

Anything can be used as a medium of exchange - but Bitcoin has no inherent value any different than giant stone discs or whatever, unlike all other currencies which have inherent value.
Well, we're disagreeing on something fundamental: that societal collapse isn't "far in the future", but that it's happening right now and most likely it won't even be debatable within a decade, whereas right now it is "debatable"...kinda how climate change was "debatable" a decade or two ago, but now is taken for granted by almost any serious person.

So in other words, we'd probably roughly agree on the future lifespan of Bitcoin as a useful store of value.

That said, you're still getting stuck using the term "inherent", and I think it's because you're trying to say "moral" or "ethical" or even "multipurpose"...or something.

Confederate State of America dollars had "inherent" value in 1863. By late 1864 they were kindling. It doesn't change the fact that it was a currency. And as for being a store of value...go check the price of a 1861 $10 CSA note in good condition. Bitcoin is a currency because it has value on a market and can be used to buy other things that are sold on the market. As long as both statements are true, it's a currency as "valid" as Federal Reserve Notes, or Iranian Rials. Hell, I can do a lot more with Bitcoin than I can with Iranian Rials, but it doesn't mean Rials don't have inherent value.

Bitcoin's "inherent" value is its value on a market. Until it's zero, it has inherent value as much as anything else that can be bought and sold on a market. And because it can be "easily" transferred and used to purchase things, it's a currency. Even if you don't think it's worth anything, it is until everyone agrees that it isn't. And to be honest, I think it will cease being a currency due to the loss of use as a medium of exchange before it becomes totally worthless, just look at any number of things that were money then became useless and then became "collectibles".
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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Yes, just like all fiat currencies.

I don't disagree, doesn't change the fact it's something we collectively agree on. That's not what 'inherent value' means.

Yes, it has marginal usefulness. If everyone agreed it was useful, everyone would start using it, and it'd be as useful as any other fiat currency, just like every currency humanity has ever developed. It's bottlecaps all the way down.
The reason Fiat currencies have value is because there is force to hold their value, such as the military, and entire massive, and smaller, economies where people want to exchange, sell and acquire products within that require the use of those currencies, that also gives that currency value.

Bitcoin has none of those. Bitcoin has nothing. No currency is worth value, as a currency, that has declined by over 66% since last October through today. Entire economies would crash if that was how their currencies worked. Bitcoin is nowhere near as valuable as a Fiat currency. It's a speculative financial investment vehicle.
 
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nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,267
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The reason Fiat currencies have value is because there is force to hold their value, such as the military, and entire massive, and smaller, economies where people want to exchange, sell and acquire products within that require the use of those currencies, that also gives that currency value.

Bitcoin has none of those. Bitcoin has nothing. No currency is worth value that has declined by over 66% since last October through today. Entire economies would crash if that was how their currencies worked. Bitcoin is nowhere near as valuable as a Fiat currency
I can do more with Bitcoin than I can with an Iranian Rial.

One is a fiat currency backed by a government with a military. One is a digital asset that has lost 66% of it's value since last October (although it's worth 2,750,000x what it was when it was first issued).
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
14,934
12,027
136
I can do more with Bitcoin than I can with an Iranian Rial.

One is a fiat currency backed by a government with a military. One is a digital asset that has lost 66% of it's value since last October (although it's worth 2,750,000x what it was when it was first issued).
You can cherry pick very few examples here and there but it's not at all representative the majority of the world's Fiat currencies. I mean Iran is sanctioned That's a terrible example. How do you people come up with these?

Good luck investing in Bitcoin and using it as a currency for much of anything.

It's latest volatility will just cause fewer and fewer places to accept it, and I'm talking out of the the .00000001% of places that people need to shop that they could. So useful.

The places that do take it are just speculators as well really.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
76,556
32,181
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Things we agree on aren't inherent. Things that have a use to aliens are inherently valuable.

Yes, thank you. It's pieces of cloth and useless metal we've agreed are useful. The fact that you generally don't even pay with those physical objects magnifies my point further. It's digital doodads, same as any other digital doodad. Just a different value assigned to it by a different group of people.

Ya'll know like, all of human society is made up, right?
They are inherent in all the ways that matter.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
11,006
7,916
146
The reason Fiat currencies have value is because there is force to hold their value, such as the military, and entire massive, and smaller, economies where people want to exchange, sell and acquire products within that require the use of those currencies, that also gives that currency value.

Bitcoin has none of those. Bitcoin has nothing. No currency is worth value, as a currency, that has declined by over 66% since last October through today. Entire economies would crash if that was how their currencies worked. Bitcoin is nowhere near as valuable as a Fiat currency. It's a speculative financial investment vehicle.
So something only has value if there's a gun behind it? That's pretty fucking silly.
They are inherent in all the ways that matter.
K, so we're moving the goalposts now? Something being inherent isn't dependent on a subjective thing, like what 'matters'. You think it matters to Ukrainian or Russian soldiers right now what the value of a dollar is?
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
14,934
12,027
136
So something only has value if there's a gun behind it? That's pretty fucking silly.

K, so we're moving the goalposts now? Something being inherent isn't dependent on a subjective thing, like what 'matters'. You think it matters to Ukrainian or Russian soldiers right now what the value of a dollar is?
You conveniently left out the part of economies from which to trade with, which kind of makes the world economy work. Militaries kind of protect that trade, so it goes hand in hand. You can't just go in and take stuff without a war.

Also you ignored the instability of bitcoins value.

You are just ignoring the reality around you.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,267
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You can cherry pick very few examples here and there but it's not at all representative the majority of the world's Fiat currencies. I mean Iran is sanctioned That's a terrible example. How do you people come up with these?

Good luck investing in Bitcoin and using it as a currency for much of anything.

It's latest volatility will just cause fewer and fewer places to accept it, and I'm talking out of the the .00000001% of places that people need to shop that they could. So useful.

The places that do take it are just speculators as well really.
Bitcoin is a currency. It is not the same as a fiat currency. There is a market for Bitcoin. I can use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange to buy and sell things of value. It is accepted worldwide.

All of the preceding statements are facts. It is a currency.

Implying that I've ever said any cryptocurrency is a good investment or a superior currency to fiat currency would be wrong. In fact, I've called it inflated due to speculation, and as an investment "a casino", and "gambling". On multiple occasions.

Doesn't mean it isn't a currency.

So.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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Bitcoin is a currency. It is not the same as a fiat currency. There is a market for Bitcoin. I can use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange to buy and sell things of value. It is accepted worldwide.

All of the preceding statements are facts. It is a currency.

Implying that I've ever said any cryptocurrency is a good investment or a superior currency to fiat currency would be wrong. In fact, I've called it inflated due to speculation, and as an investment "a casino", and "gambling". On multiple occasions.

Doesn't mean it isn't a currency.

So.
It's a currency at what, .0000001% of where the world shops?

That's not a currency, it's a super boutique item for very rare occasions.
 

Tsinni Dave

Member
Mar 1, 2022
187
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It's a currency at what, .0000001% of where the world shops?

That's not a currency, it's a super boutique item for very rare occasions.
If you're shopping for bulk illegal drugs, weapons or human trafficking I hear it's near ubiquitous however.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
69,324
4,656
126
Year to date bitcoin inflation as compared to the US dollar has been ~100%.
We have this moron up here, Pierre Poilievre, that wants to deal with Inflation using Crypto. Dude seems likely to become the leader of the Conservative party, of course. He's also gonna make us the "Most Free" nation on earth. No details have been given though. [/shocked]
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
76,556
32,181
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So something only has value if there's a gun behind it? That's pretty fucking silly.

K, so we're moving the goalposts now? Something being inherent isn't dependent on a subjective thing, like what 'matters'. You think it matters to Ukrainian or Russian soldiers right now what the value of a dollar is?
Nope, no goalposts are moved. Every fiat currency can be used to satisfy tax obligations, which makes them inherently valuable. Bitcoin can’t do that, generally speaking.

Crypto is a scam and always was a scam. It has no useful purpose.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
12,130
6,755
136
We have this moron up here, Pierre Poilievre, that wants to deal with Inflation using Crypto. Dude seems likely to become the leader of the Conservative party, of course. He's also gonna make us the "Most Free" nation on earth. No details have been given though. [/shocked]
Even if Crypto worked out the way people claim. With a maximum number of "coins" the currency is automatically deflationary. I.e. for the GDP to increase each coin would have to increase in value. Meaning every year you'd get a decrease instead of a raise, and money you got in the future would be worth more than money today.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
10,665
5,375
136
Even if Crypto worked out the way people claim. With a maximum number of "coins" the currency is automatically deflationary. I.e. for the GDP to increase each coin would have to increase in value. Meaning every year you'd get a decrease instead of a raise, and money you got in the future would be worth more than money today.

A deflationary currency would surely mean people will be reluctant to spend, thus potentially triggering a recession, no?
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
23,928
7,110
136
I’m hearing growing chatter about a “crypto bailout” that certain free market libertarians are now arguing *for*. This is absolutely hilarious, but not surprising.

I ask you, how many trillions of dollars did “we”(the developed world) pour into useless assets over an entire decade, with nothing to show for it but money laundering schemes, a worsening energy crisis and global warming??? Pay close attention to who actually made any money from this scam.

Now ask yourself what the world would be like if that money had gone into investments in labor (higher wages), beefing up social security and expanding safety net programs, green energy, better mental healthcare, paid family leave, better schools, small business loans, etc. etc.
 

VashHT

Platinum Member
Feb 1, 2007
2,825
501
126
I love how crypto true believers use the term fiat currency in a derogatory manner... just makes me laugh even more now
I find this funny too, most people only seem to get into crypto hoping it'll become worth more in fiat currency so they can sell it.
 

DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
574
559
136
Crypto is a scam and always was a scam. It has no useful purpose.
I'm going to somewhat disagree. Crypto itself isn't a scam. Does it enable (and even encourage) scams on a downright amazing scale? Absolutely. But crypto's not a scam.

It's something worse.

At best, it's a system to intentionally starve public services of funding by dodging taxes and cripple consumer protections. It's the old libertarian dribble in a bad disguise. Cryptobros are a-ok with the scams because hey, maybe they'll be the scammer one day!
At worst, it's an ancap dystopia, with a side of outright fascism thrown in. There's a reason Peter Thiel and his race-realist buddies love crypto.
 

gothuevos

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2010
1,180
881
136
Bitcoin has been flat as a pancake at $30K or so for the last month. Dropped to $23K over the weekend as sketchy Celcius essentially freezes its assets.

How low do you think?

* I guess $20K, but wouldn't be surprised to see close to $12K, and then see it sit stagnant for a year before the next surge.

This will be a test of the other Alt Coins just to see if they can just survive.

* I am not an investment advisor.
😇
Good time to buy in?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,229
11,077
136
Good time to buy in?
Only if you're a greater fool. The Fed isn't going to stop until it has sent all cryptos to as close to $0 as it can. And while I've no love for the Fed (particularly this corrupt and inept Fed), cryptos are even worse, and serve no purpose, in their current incarnation, but to facilitate crime and to separate retail investors from their savings.

BTW this thread aged really well.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,229
11,077
136
If I were a business owner i would NEVER accept any type of crypto currency for payment. I just hope that the government does not ever support any form of crypto currency. At least a dollar today is worth a dollar tomorrow.
As a business owner, the problem with accepting crypto as a form of payment is that the transaction (or "gas") fees are absurdly high. Imagine selling a gallon of milk for $3 and paying $100 in transaction fees, that's how cryptos work as a currency. And tragically, this is by design. Cryptos intentionally use small blockchain sizes in order to prop their values up, but this has the effect of dramatically limiting the number of transactions that can be processed at a time and thus insanely increasing transaction costs and time. Which is the opposite of how any ideal currency should operate. Even your dinkiest credit union is capable of processing significantly more transactions at a miniscule fraction of the cost that any crypto can. While Visa or any major bank processes many orders of magnitude more transactions per second at virtually no cost in relative comparison.
 

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