JM Aggie08
Diamond Member
- Jan 3, 2006
- 8,215
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oo big man eh? so why do you insult the theist beliefs now, jesus may be proud of me eh? you really had me rolling there. child, pfft.
I insulted you, not theists. Where on earth did you get that idea from ANY of my posts, better yet ANYONE's in this thread?
I mean really, what kind of response do you expect from Anyone when you barge in here and starting calling people 'assholes and don't assume what I am, whiny bitch.'
Really. Answer that, I'd like to hear what more childish garbage you sprew from your mouth.
You act like a typica 11 year old sunday school loner. "OH NO, HE DOESN'T BELIEVE WHAT I BELIEVE, YOU INSULT ME I GOTO MASS EVERY WEEK U BIACH"
:roll:
E equals MC2 ....hoenstly....you are shooting yourself in the face.
I don't know how old you are but mature ADULTS tend to share and discuss, rather than declare and impose.
I don't know how old you are but mature ADULTS tend to share and discuss, rather than declare and impose.
E equals MC2, you should consider the writings of the logical mathematician Rene Descartes; because he could not be sure of anything, he dismissed everything, including all his beliefs, then began with what he can be sure of. In the end, after a long time of self-thought, he ended up with two things he could be sure of: that he exists (I think, therefore I am) and that God exists.
"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things" - Rene Descartes
But what differentiated Rene from much of society was: he thought about it objectively and investigated, for years. I encourage you to intently investigate: what is the truth? Especially since it could potentially have eternal ramifications.
However, do not remain agnostic forever; that just avoids the question. At the end, you must decide based on what you found out. Then you must appropriately respond based on that decision.
"The greatest lie that the devil perpetuates is: that we have time."
You can't wait to know everything before choosing; often times we are not completely sure if a road is safe enough to cross, even if the "walk" light is on. It is when we are sure enough that we can make an informed decision.
Feel free to PM me if you want to ask about anything
-MiND
"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things" - Rene Descartes
But what differentiated Rene from much of society was: he thought about it objectively and investigated, for years. I encourage you to intently investigate: what is the truth? Especially since it could potentially have eternal ramifications.
However, do not remain agnostic forever; that just avoids the question. At the end, you must decide based on what you found out. Then you must appropriately respond based on that decision.
"The greatest lie that the devil perpetuates is: that we have time."
You can't wait to know everything before choosing; often times we are not completely sure if a road is safe enough to cross, even if the "walk" light is on. It is when we are sure enough that we can make an informed decision.
Feel free to PM me if you want to ask about anything
-MiND
Great stuff. Does Rene Descartes have a book regarding his particular religious adventure? I'd love to read it.
That and most people don't realize that science came from the Bible (even the scientific method was invented based on the Bible). The Bible tells us to investigate and not just have blind faith. So that's where science comes in; so far the Bible has not yet been disproven but actually is being proven more and more.
(e.g. the Genesis order of when species first began to appear is confirmed by paleontology, though it was written thousands of years before modern biology or paleontology)
(e.g. the Earth suspended in nothing (Job 26:7), though it was written long before knowledge of space)
(e.g. the Hydrological Cycle (Job 36:27-28), though it was written long before such knowledge)
(e.g. the second law of thermodynamics (Law of Increasing Entropy), though it was written well before physics was understood)
etc.
So, in turn, science does serve to boost our faith, rather than erode, as one would think.
"Test everything. (then) Hold on to the good." - 1 Thessalonians 5:21
Originally posted by: Cattlegod
welcome to the club. what took you so long?
Is there like a church of agnostic? We can all get together and.... worship.... agnosticism...
AreaCode707
Lifer
- Sep 21, 2001
- 18,445
- 127
- 106
This has been a good thread, very few flames. MrDudeMan, very good thoughts! And E equals MC2, you've done a great job inviting further conversation.
This statement caught my eye:
I think that we all are still loved, no matter what our choices are. That's why everybody, without exclusion, has the opportunity of salvation offered to them. I also think that it is because we are loved that we are offered a choice. If you don't enjoy God's love and structure on earth, why would you choose to live in that eternally?
The clouds-and-harps version of heaven and fire-and-pitchfork version of hell are sketchy and relatively recent ideas - the Bible is a lot more clear on the presence/absence of God as the defining characterstic of both places. So if you aren't inclined towards God's ways and presence on earth, why should you have no choice about living in that forever? I don't think that it means you aren't loved, but I do think it means you are respected.
This statement caught my eye:
I think that we all are still loved, no matter what our choices are. That's why everybody, without exclusion, has the opportunity of salvation offered to them. I also think that it is because we are loved that we are offered a choice. If you don't enjoy God's love and structure on earth, why would you choose to live in that eternally?
The clouds-and-harps version of heaven and fire-and-pitchfork version of hell are sketchy and relatively recent ideas - the Bible is a lot more clear on the presence/absence of God as the defining characterstic of both places. So if you aren't inclined towards God's ways and presence on earth, why should you have no choice about living in that forever? I don't think that it means you aren't loved, but I do think it means you are respected.
AreaCode707
Lifer
- Sep 21, 2001
- 18,445
- 127
- 106
Originally posted by: E equals MC2
Huh? Going to hell means God's way of respecting my religion?
No, allowing you the choice of whether to be in God's presence and not overiding your choice is respecting your free will. If heaven is principally being in God's presence and is something you don't even enjoy on earth, why are you so eager to be forever sentenced to that by somebody who disregards your choice?
Originally posted by: HotChic
Originally posted by: E equals MC2
Huh? Going to hell means God's way of respecting my religion?
No, allowing you the choice of whether to be in God's presence and not overiding your choice is respecting your free will. If heaven is principally being in God's presence and is something you don't even enjoy on earth, why are you so eager to be forever sentenced to that by somebody who disregards your choice?
I think this warrants a new discussion.
I'm assuming Christianity is indeed the absolute truth. Therefore, non-christians will find out that they've been wrong all their life after death. They will see that Christian God has been the right one all along.
They can still embrace God, because now they've gained true wisdom. They will naturally want to be with Him and stay in His heaven because there's no contest. Everybody is happy- God and his original believers and afterlife believers.
Hence, I just don't know why hell exists. It is directly oxymoronic to John 3:16.
It's interesting to see how this whole thread is framed around only wheter or not Christian beliefs are true or false.
What about all the other religious belief systems? I think it's worthwhile for people who are seriously questioning the religion they we're accidentally born into, to look into other belief systems. Ask yourself what would you believe had you been born someplace different like maybe india, iran, china, etc. Why do you believe in a particular concept of "God" and what happens after death versus some other concept? Most people can really only truthfully answer "because my parents told me so" despite most religious peoples claims that they chose so.
I just think it might be even more insightful to ask why you should believe in one religion instead of another, before thinking about whether or not you should believe in any at all.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,333
- 136
Because most of the so-called polytheistic religions are (or were) actually monotheistic. This confusion arises because they were largely syncretic. However, even "polytheistic" Hinduism has Brahman. Ancient religious texts of the supposedly polytheistic Greeks and Romans refer repeatedly to an single Almighty God that they worshipped alongside their other gods. The failure of western thought to understand this seems to stem from the "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" commandment (which forbids being syncretic).
These "one god instead of another" or "I contend we are both atheists, I just worship one fewer god" arguments are for those who have NOT studied world religions (or who have failed to understand them and their many similarities). Otherwise, you would know that there is only one single almighty God shared by all the religions, and just many different ways of worshipping or understand this same single God. If 2 people call the same thing by 2 different names, it is still the same thing.
In what way do you conclude that there is only one God shared by all religions?
I see two possibilities. If there is infact one almighty creator then he has revealed himself to the various prophets(or at least some) and they interpret it and then it gets muddied up over the years which could explain the similarities between all religions and also the differences. This raises the question of why an almighty god would allow its message to be distorted though.
Or there never was an almighty god revealed to prophets, but instead the concept of god is a creation of man inorder to fill a common void, which could also explain the similarities and differences.
dullard
Elite Member
- May 21, 2001
- 25,476
- 3,976
- 126
I think you missed my very first post. People (a) can't choose a side or (b) won't choose a side. You clearly fit into category (b) - where you won't choose a side. How does that statement "require" you to pick a side?
Since the OP clearly is in the state (a), I continued discussing case (a). Currenly he cannot pick a side because he sees good arguments for either case. But he wants to choose a side. The people who want to move in one direction but cannot move are by definition "paralyzed". If you are in category (b), clearly you aren't "paralyzed".
How is this the mentality of warring gangs?
dullard
Elite Member
- May 21, 2001
- 25,476
- 3,976
- 126
There is a whole spectrum from nearly 0% to nearly 100%. The OP made the case that people were only at the extremes (only at 0% or only at 100%). To that, I say he had it all wrong.
If you don't perform many of the typical thiest tasks (go to church regularly, etc), then I'd consider you an athiest. Of course you have the logical realism that you can't prove your side, so like any reasonable person, you are part agnostic. But still, you are fairly confident in your views that you are basically athiest. You are a realistic athiest.
I'm not going to get into the fine details. Is someone who believes 50.01% in god a thiest or agnostic? That will depend on many circumstances. Does he/she want to choose a side? Does he/she perform many thiest rituals that have significance in their life? Etc. The specific answers to those types of questions would put that person into the theist camp or the agnostic camp.
All I'm saying is that there are very few agnostics at any point in time. But virtually everyone is agnostic at some point in their life - they always question their beliefs at some point (usually points of stress). The standard definition that you can only be either one or the other is therefore useless. You'll morph within the spectrum to different points in your life.
Sorry, but you're making a poor generalization/assumption. "Of course theists/athiests know you can't prove god's existance" People have been trying to prove or disprove the existence of god for years. I hardly think it's simply accepted as unprovable.
Also nowhere did totalcommand claim everyone is agnostic. You're jumping to conclusions yourself when you don't understand the definition totalcommand is using.
The definition of agnosticism posted by totalcommand is one you'd find in a good philosophy or religion textbook or even a common dictionary. Although your "real" definition is also listed, but usually as a second entry as some people commonly used.
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