This is what I think of religion.

[E equals MC2]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dullard
No, a real agnostic is someone who is paralyzed in the thought process of which is more likely (god existing or got not existing).

Negative. You are assuming that a purely emotional decision can be justified through logic. It can't. Agnostics are not "paralyzed in the thought process of which is more likely," they simply don't allow their emotions to cloud their perception of reality. Hence (IMO) your use of ad hom and argumentum ad ignorantiam here. Simply because 2 warring camps of emotional prejudice exist does not mean that I (or anyone) am required to pick one of them.

Damn well said. Very effective words, Vic.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Vic
Simply because 2 warring camps of emotional prejudice exist does not mean that I (or anyone) am required to pick one of them.

You are not required to pick one. But if you wrote down all of your reasons for either side (and weighted those reasons), then one side will outweigh the other in virtually all cases. Therefore, even though you didn't conciously choose one side, your reasons are choosing one side.

The "Ben Franklin" is hardly the foundation of logical decision-making. Far from it.

And your post implied (through ad hom) that a person is required to pick a side. Or else face derision from being "paralyzed in the thought process." This is consistent with the mentality of warring gangs. In reality, we are dealing with a null. A complete unknown. A concept that can NEVER be proven nor disproven. A logical zero sum.

"A plague o' both your houses."

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: Fraggable

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Topic Title: This is what I think of religion.
Topic Summary: And I think I have the best stance.

1. Theists believe in a god although we cannot comprehend and logically prove that there is one. They're ignorant to conclude so.

I think you're an arsehole and have no clue what you're talking about and obviously no common sense whatsoever and no ability to observe reality and are really truly scared to death when you see that you were created by a God who can save you from Hell but you also realize that you have to repent of your sin so you'll never admit that you see the obvious truth. In other words, you're unbelievably stupid or unbelievably unobservant.

You think that of religion? That's what I think of you.

i dont know what to make of your post. are you seriously trying to engage in thoughtful discussion?

the OP is questioning a very complex matter, which hardly anyone will ever see eye to eye on. if he chooses to believe somethinig you find totally retarded, then that is your choice, but to say that does no one any good and it never will. if you actually want to have someone listen to your point maybe you should tune it more to the frequency of an adult conversation.

reading through your post, i see your point and respect it as i do anyone elses. i wish you could put it into different words and fully explain what you had to say regarding the obvious truth.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: E equals MC2
People tend to categorize others as either Christians or NON-Christians. They point and say, "That person is gonna go to hell and I (or God, as they like to say) need to save them.

That was my particular example during Christianity days in my church and my church community. And I know as a fact that this isn't atypical experience for Christians.

Christianity by definition is exclusive. That's what I currently have the trouble with most. I do not see myself as confused because I clearly understand my own stance and acknowledge that atheists are just as guilty of it.

I think you are confusing "religion" and "church". Certain churches state that you must go out and save those who aren't in your church. In fact, that is a fundamental requirement in some churches. Specific churches often tend to be exclusive.

Religion tends to be inclusive. A good Christian realises that everyone is different and that they should all be loved. Notice how that is different from specific churches that realise everyone is different and are going to hell.

You may be well off being a Christian that isn't a member of a specific church.


Everyone, have a good night. I'm going out now.

 

[yhelothar]

Originally posted by: dullard
You have it all wrong (when you mention that theists/athiests are only at the ends of the continuous spectrum).

[*]Thiests say there is most likely a god given the data they work with. For example one thiest may think there is a 95% chance that there is a god.
[*]Athiests say there is most likely not a god given the data they work with. For example, one athiest may think there is a 95% chance that there is not a god.
[*]Agnostics cannot or will not make a choice. They say the evidence is exactly 50/50.

Um, so what about the people that falls in between them?
I consider myself agnostic, but I think there's about an 80% chance that there is no god.

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Vic
Simply because 2 warring camps of emotional prejudice exist does not mean that I (or anyone) am required to pick one of them.

You are not required to pick one. But if you wrote down all of your reasons for either side (and weighted those reasons), then one side will outweigh the other in virtually all cases. Therefore, even though you didn't conciously choose one side, your reasons are choosing one side.

The "Ben Franklin" is hardly the foundation of logical decision-making. Far from it.

And your post implied (through ad hom) that a person is required to pick a side. Or else face derision from being "paralyzed in the thought process." This is consistent with the mentality of warring gangs. In reality, we are dealing with a null. A complete unknown. A concept that can NEVER be proven nor disproven. A logical zero sum.

"A plague o' both your houses."

again, you assume logic can only be used to bring you into the null. logic and reasoning can establish anything you want it to. to some people it might be logical to spend all of their money on lottery tickets.

so what if it cant be proven or disproven? you can NEVER prove that a baseball thrown at a wall will not go through it. EVER. your common experience is that it will hit it and bounce off, but not even science can predict 100% accurate results. weird example, i know, but just because your everyday experience leads you to a conclusion is no means to frame it on the wall as a means to judge others logical interpretations of life and truth.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dullard
No, a real agnostic is someone who is paralyzed in the thought process of which is more likely (god existing or got not existing).

Negative. You are assuming that a purely emotional decision can be justified through logic. It can't. Agnostics are not "paralyzed in the thought process of which is more likely," they simply don't allow their emotions to cloud their perception of reality. Hence (IMO) your use of ad hom and argumentum ad ignorantiam here. Simply because 2 warring camps of emotional prejudice exist does not mean that I (or anyone) am required to pick one of them.

this implies that to believe in god or not is purely an emotional concept, which itself is not true. your perception of truth makes you agnostic, and maybe your have a dirty lens. maybe i have been mislead as well, who is to know unless you are willing to understand all sides? there is no way for you to be sincere and claim you are absolutely right because you claim to use the best logic. that right there defies logic. i respect your right to disagree with my beliefs but at least be willing to discuss the notion that you could be incorrect, because claiming you have found absolute truth will never win an arguement. you cant persuade people to see your point - they have to understand through action and experience.

Of course, I am wrong. God either is or is not. There is no in-between. The difference is that I do not pretend to know what I cannot know. I am not pretending to be right. That is the biggest fallacy by far in the theist/atheist debate -- that "right" in reality is determined by belief. It is not.

 

[Trey22]

42.

 

[E equals MC2]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Thanks for your post. It brought a smile, reminded me of my own Christian days (I'm humoring myself.)

You are absolutely on the dot. This isn't something I concluded overnight. Being raised in a Christian family (My mother is a passionate Christian) and Christian community even throughout college, I can relate. I partok in leadership roles, teaching bible study, mission trips and so on throughout my middle school, HS and college years- and I shed genuine tears and professed love for my God. It is what helped me shaped who I am today.

And now I feel that I'm ready to discover more. I'm currently 24. In the past 3 years, I started to have doubts (in Christianity sense.) I took this very seriously and longed for better understanding of my own religion- Christianity.

I actually came back from a retreat just past saturday and engaged in a very insightful discussion with the church's pastor (who holds Harvard Ph.D in theology). We talked on and on about the point you just brought up...

To simply put, it all sound like a man made rule for me. The fact that "we have to have freewill so we can love him by choice, if not we go to hell etc" just sounds too.. human-made to me. I mean, if God is really an almighty God, why is there a need for such rule?

I hope you understand what I'm struggling with in such a short response.

yes, i understand, because i have also struggled with that exact same concept. putting a human-like attribute on a mental image of god seems wrong, but it is laid before you in the bible that there are choices. you have the choice to either seek god or refuse him all together - a binary system.

you have the choice to believe in god once you have begun to seek him or not believe and conclude he doesnt exist. every way you look at this, it will provide an opposite way to go. that is the whole point IMO. you have to be willing to see where you are going and why you are going there. blindly following an idea or concept will, in the end, do you no good. if you were having trouble with your faith, then discontinuing until you found out more was the right choice.

to me at least, it is clear that we are afforded freewill to make decisions which helps make us human. that is ultimately the biggest problem with being human - we can all see the same event/concept/idea completely differently, so it gives everyone the chance to make completely exclusive choices to how they perceived said event/concept/idea. the one thing that can unify all of humanity is our ability to make a choice. it seems to me to be an over arching theme that governs our everyday life in all ways. there is always a choice.

thus, i believe if god really existed, there would have to be an alternate choice. god is love, and if you believe in god it is natural to believe that. therefore, away from god is not love, and the manifestation of not love in a human world has translated into pain and suffering. it takes a lot of personal reflection to understand some of the hurt and pain in this world, some of which i still struggle with. but, i believe what i just said to be true and have found it applies in my life. i do my best each and everyday to live a kingdom life and walk with jesus. anyone can judge me and call me any name they want, because i see that they dont understand why i believe what i believe. i cant fault them for that as their life experience with other christians may have been very poor to say the least. i am severly dissappointed in modern churches and televangilsts making the world see christianity with a tainted eye. it just isnt consistent with the book they claim to follow.

Thanks for your well thoughout post. But I don't think you directly answered my question? I don't think anyone can. It is a question all Christians cannot answer...in my humble opinion.

Why must we perish only through Jesus Christ, if He loved us so much that he gave up his one and only son?

Why did he need to give up his son? I know all the sunday school answer behind it- a perfect sinless man must die to die for OUR sins and so on.

But isn't that a man-made rule? A human-made 'even-trade' system? If God was almighty, he doesn't need to do that to satisfy his own helpless underlings and creation that He created.

Hell for eternity...

Again, can't we just enjoy freewill and still be loved whether WE make a choice to believe Him or not? Isn't THAT a more fitting definition of unconditional love?

 

[E equals MC2]

Originally posted by: Fraggable

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Topic Title: This is what I think of religion.
Topic Summary: And I think I have the best stance.

1. Theists believe in a god although we cannot comprehend and logically prove that there is one. They're ignorant to conclude so.

I think you're an arsehole and have no clue what you're talking about and obviously no common sense whatsoever and no ability to observe reality and are really truly scared to death when you see that you were created by a God who can save you from Hell but you also realize that you have to repent of your sin so you'll never admit that you see the obvious truth. In other words, you're unbelievably stupid or unbelievably unobservant.

You think that of religion? That's what I think of you.

You just had to get that out of your system huh? It is people like you that deterred me from Christianity. You are the kind of people that endanger not only nonbelievers from believing Christ, but to other Christians among you.

Move along now, be a good church-goer and go back to your institutionalized belief system.

Remember what is universally true, especially if you want to others to believe what You believe: It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

Until you master this, you accomplish nothing.

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Thanks for your well thoughout post. But I don't think you directly answered my question? I don't think anyone can. It is a question all Christians cannot answer...in my humble opinion.

Why must we perish only through Jesus Christ, if He loved us so much that he gave up his one and only son?

Why did he need to give up his son? I know all the sunday school answer behind it- a perfect sinless man must die to die for OUR sins and so on.

But isn't that a man-made rule? A human-made 'even-trade' system? If God was almighty, he doesn't need to do that to satisfy his own helpless underlings and creation that He created.

Hell for eternity...

Again, can't we just enjoy freewill and still be loved whether WE make a choice to believe Him or not? Isn't THAT a more fitting definition of unconditional love?

if there was no chance to suffer then you wouldnt understand the unconditional love. jesus died with the weight of sin and hate on his shoulders. saying he died sinless and for our sins is oversimplifying IMO.

god is almighty but that doesnt mean he knows what it is like to live in sin and know how it feels. when jesus said on the cross, "my god my god why have you forsaken me?" it was because he felt what sin was like for the first time. he beared the full force of it.

i see what you are saying about why he doesnt need to do that to satisfy his own "underlings" but that may be an out of focus way to perceive that concept. note i didnt say it was wrong because it isnt. he had to give up his son to show us what it is like to walk with christ, and also to make us aware of him.

basically, if we were able to do whatever it is we wanted, life would have no meaning and no ultimate goal. people would say the point of life is to acquire riches and be the most powerful person you can be, but that is so finite IMO. i have a purpose in my view in this life and after this life. i have goals i can reach and goals i can only setup for later. i have a direction i have found to be fitting of my belief and it gives me a whole new, deeper meaning. im not just a useless little pawn in the american economic system. i have the power to help and love other people for the glory of the kingdom. it is more than an idea though, since i live it to the best of my ability and it shapes how i view people. i have compassion for everyone, even the guy that stole my wallet. something must have happened in his life to make him want to steal and to write him off as a miscreant and a theif with no real purpose is to miss the point of jesus completely. if your brother asks for your coat, give him your shirt as well.

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Originally posted by: Fraggable

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Topic Title: This is what I think of religion.
Topic Summary: And I think I have the best stance.

1. Theists believe in a god although we cannot comprehend and logically prove that there is one. They're ignorant to conclude so.

I think you're an arsehole and have no clue what you're talking about and obviously no common sense whatsoever and no ability to observe reality and are really truly scared to death when you see that you were created by a God who can save you from Hell but you also realize that you have to repent of your sin so you'll never admit that you see the obvious truth. In other words, you're unbelievably stupid or unbelievably unobservant.

You think that of religion? That's what I think of you.

You just had to get that out of your system huh? It is people like you that deterred me from Christianity. You are the kind of people that endanger not only nonbelievers from believing Christ, but to other Christians among you.

Move along now, be a good church-goer and go back to your institutionalized belief system.

he may not be christian though. its hard to tell, and whether or not he is or isnt, speaking to other people about their core beliefs and principles is dangerous. it is the result of being human and you cant fault him for it. his view of you and hiw way to form a response is more than skin deep - something not easily changed or understood.

 

[Reckoner]

So basically you have no stance on the subject?

 

[MrDudeMan]

i have to go eat. ill check back later to see if the discussion went anywhere.

 

[Reckoner]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
i have to go eat. ill check back later to see if the discussion went anywhere.

I wouldn't bother

 

[JM Aggie08]

Endager? By whom are we threatened by? ooo the agnostic and christian revolution. so scared.

I'm catholic, and i am dam proud of it. Religion is based off of faith, pure faith, not knowing, but assuming and hoping that there is something beyond earth, and that there is someone to guide you along the way. Do not come in here preaching about your beliefs, then somehow come to the conclusion that Chirstians are "endangered".

Catholicism est. 1 ADE, and still going strong baby.

Go think about your "beliefs" somewhere else.

 

[JM Aggie08]

and dont you dare tell me that I am the kind that turned you away, i go to mass every other week, so dont bitch about me being a superficial christian

 

[E equals MC2]

Originally posted by: JM Aggie08
and dont you dare tell me that I am the kind that turned you away, i go to mass every other week, so dont bitch about me being a superficial christian

Hahaha you are the model christian. I'm not even gonna waste my time trying to engage in a serious discussion with you parading that attitude.

Jesus must be proud that you go to mass every other week.

I should stop indulging in this child, wasting my letters on my keyboard.

 

[Fraggable]

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Originally posted by: Fraggable

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Topic Title: This is what I think of religion.
Topic Summary: And I think I have the best stance.

1. Theists believe in a god although we cannot comprehend and logically prove that there is one. They're ignorant to conclude so.

I think you're an arsehole and have no clue what you're talking about and obviously no common sense whatsoever and no ability to observe reality and are really truly scared to death when you see that you were created by a God who can save you from Hell but you also realize that you have to repent of your sin so you'll never admit that you see the obvious truth. In other words, you're unbelievably stupid or unbelievably unobservant.

You think that of religion? That's what I think of you.

You just had to get that out of your system huh? It is people like you that deterred me from Christianity. You are the kind of people that endanger not only nonbelievers from believing Christ, but to other Christians among you.

Move along now, be a good church-goer and go back to your institutionalized belief system.

Remember what is universally true, especially if you want to others to believe what You believe: It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

Until you master this, you accomplish nothing.

That was in no way supposed to convince anyone of anything. It was a response to your 'I think...' You insulted my beliefs, whether it was on purpose or not.

You were a Christian. You know the truth and choose to ignore it or find a way to disprove it. The truth cannot be logically explained. It cannot be proven scientifically. You have to have faith to believe it, but not faith in something that is not evident. EVIDENT, not PROVEN. I don't care what you say, any belief about where we came from and why we're here required faith in something that can't be conclusively 100% proven. You claim to be an agnostic. Believing nothing is in fact believing something. It's believing that whatever the truth is, it won't affect you after death. You have a right to believe that, so you can go on doing it. I just hope that as a Christian, you were saved and are now unrevokably a child of God whether you choose to acknowledge His existence or not.

Nothing I can say will get through to you. The Bible says people are saved from God's Word, not mine.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
it takes more than figuring out if there is or isnt a god. even if you could prove the existance of god, that doesnt do anything for the average joe. the problem most people have with religion is the religious people. they are mostly very ignorant and dont even know the basics of what they are professing to believe in. if more people were educated on their particular belief, none of those wars would happen.

people cause wars. plain and simple. if religion didnt exist there would still be wars and differences leading to other conflict. religion just happens to be an easy way to mask greed and stupidity when it is convenient. it gives religion an undeserved bad rap.

you have your point, but it is mostly incorrect based on how little you have probably developed an understanding for what makes a worldview unique and how you really interpret truth compared to someone else. you are the epitome of post modernism.

btw, i am a christian, but i extensively study it on a weekly and usually daily basis. i dont force it on other people ever. i truly respect your right to disagree and i even welcome you to do so...it helps everyone grow as long as you can keep it mature, consistent, and be man enough to swallow your pride and sometimes admit the other party has a point. lots of times people ask me questions i cant answer, and since i am a finite being, i simply dont have answers to every question. i can admit that. just something to mentally chew on.

edit: while im at it, i may as well add this. another problem with religion is people who dont have faith dont see a pragmatic value in it. this is a very good observation by non theists. i really mean that. if you fail to see any day to day value, then what is the point? much of the real value of it has problem been hidden from you by people abusing their position as a religious person by either saying you are going to hell or something else equally as offensive and one sided, or simply have no clue what they are talking about. i admire their search for god but they are going about it all wrong.

Capitalize God, brother.

OP: It's called "faith." You should look up the definition.

 

[E equals MC2]

Originally posted by: Fraggable

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Originally posted by: Fraggable

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Topic Title: This is what I think of religion.
Topic Summary: And I think I have the best stance.

1. Theists believe in a god although we cannot comprehend and logically prove that there is one. They're ignorant to conclude so.

I think you're an arsehole and have no clue what you're talking about and obviously no common sense whatsoever and no ability to observe reality and are really truly scared to death when you see that you were created by a God who can save you from Hell but you also realize that you have to repent of your sin so you'll never admit that you see the obvious truth. In other words, you're unbelievably stupid or unbelievably unobservant.

You think that of religion? That's what I think of you.

You just had to get that out of your system huh? It is people like you that deterred me from Christianity. You are the kind of people that endanger not only nonbelievers from believing Christ, but to other Christians among you.

Move along now, be a good church-goer and go back to your institutionalized belief system.

Remember what is universally true, especially if you want to others to believe what You believe: It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

Until you master this, you accomplish nothing.

That was in no way supposed to convince anyone of anything. It was a response to your 'I think...' You insulted my beliefs, whether it was on purpose or not.

You were a Christian. You know the truth and choose to ignore it or find a way to disprove it. The truth cannot be logically explained. It cannot be proven scientifically. You have to have faith to believe it, but not faith in something that is not evident. EVIDENT, not PROVEN. I don't care what you say, any belief about where we came from and why we're here required faith in something that can't be conclusively 100% proven. You claim to be an agnostic. Believing nothing is in fact believing something. It's believing that whatever the truth is, it won't affect you after death. You have a right to believe that, so you can go on doing it. I just hope that as a Christian, you were saved and are now unrevokably a child of God whether you choose to acknowledge His existence or not.

Nothing I can say will get through to you. The Bible says people are saved from God's Word, not mine.

You are just as guilty of your every words you just wrote right there. Nothing anybody will say to you get through you either.

That's the pluralistic approach- acknowledging everyone ignorance, regardless of religious stance.

Please read my previous post about 'universal truth'. Faith become so self-sustaining, even if it becamse an indisputable, irrefutable fact that God did NOT exist, believers will still continue to believe, discarding 'the truth' as just another "Satan's trap."

There's a fine line between 'faithfulness' and 'ignorance'. I'll even go far as to say it's synonymous.

Chew on the definitions of both, you'll find striking resemblences. Truth does not matter anymore. It becomes relative. If you believed a god so strongly through faith, it really doesn't matter if god existed or not, does it?

The word ignorance has a very negative connotation, but shaking that off, aren't Faith and Ignorance essentially the same thing- continuing to believe what you believe no matter what happens.

 

[zanieladie]

Originally posted by: everman
*wonders if this thread is bbq and lawn chair worthy*

If it turns out to be, can I help with the grill?

 

[E equals MC2]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
it takes more than figuring out if there is or isnt a god. even if you could prove the existance of god, that doesnt do anything for the average joe. the problem most people have with religion is the religious people. they are mostly very ignorant and dont even know the basics of what they are professing to believe in. if more people were educated on their particular belief, none of those wars would happen.

people cause wars. plain and simple. if religion didnt exist there would still be wars and differences leading to other conflict. religion just happens to be an easy way to mask greed and stupidity when it is convenient. it gives religion an undeserved bad rap.

you have your point, but it is mostly incorrect based on how little you have probably developed an understanding for what makes a worldview unique and how you really interpret truth compared to someone else. you are the epitome of post modernism.

btw, i am a christian, but i extensively study it on a weekly and usually daily basis. i dont force it on other people ever. i truly respect your right to disagree and i even welcome you to do so...it helps everyone grow as long as you can keep it mature, consistent, and be man enough to swallow your pride and sometimes admit the other party has a point. lots of times people ask me questions i cant answer, and since i am a finite being, i simply dont have answers to every question. i can admit that. just something to mentally chew on.

edit: while im at it, i may as well add this. another problem with religion is people who dont have faith dont see a pragmatic value in it. this is a very good observation by non theists. i really mean that. if you fail to see any day to day value, then what is the point? much of the real value of it has problem been hidden from you by people abusing their position as a religious person by either saying you are going to hell or something else equally as offensive and one sided, or simply have no clue what they are talking about. i admire their search for god but they are going about it all wrong.

Capitalize God, brother.

OP: It's called "faith." You should look up the definition.

When did you post this MrDudeMan? I totally missed it. Very well written. Only if more believers were like you. Too bad people are too ignorant, including myself. It really saddens me that we as human beings are so easily influenced and the majority do not engage in further search to find the truth on their own. They simply eat what they're fed.

It really saddens me that something outright blatantly stupid as Scientology has a significant following. That itself is a very depressing proof of human intellect in mass.

 

[FeuerFrei]

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural (psuchikos - Gk., of the senses) man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Sqube]

If you have knowledge, you can't have faith, since faith is believing without knowing. Therefore, calling someone who has faith ignorant is... completely accurate. I just thought I'd throw that out there for general consumption.

That said, I'm Catholic. I've been Catholic my whole life. I don't think you're condemned to hell for having the nerve not to believe what I believe. As a matter of fact, I love when people point out the inconsistencies and foolish policies that have been implemented over the years.

I feel that a lot more people have problems with the religious, not the religion. More specifically, most people have problems with religious people because the fundamentalists and the ignorant are the loudest.