Thinking about it.. an afterlife doesn't make sense, sadly

[Woosta]

Originally posted by: Sentrosi2121
I can't believe this. Four pages into this thread and no mention of 42.

?

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: Woosta

Originally posted by: Sentrosi2121
I can't believe this. Four pages into this thread and no mention of 42.

?

It's an in-joke for aging nerds. Read Hitchhiker's Guide.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: bignateyk

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: Woosta

Originally posted by: bignateyk
Life doesn't make sense either. Think about it. You live in this universe that had to have come from somewhere, but where the hell did it come from? You live on a habitable planet in the middle of that chaotic universe. What are the odds of that? 1 in trillions? even less? On top of that, you are an intelligent being on that planet. How many millions of years of evolution did that take? And why you? Out of all the other intelligent beings, and other life forms, why did you become you?

Until life makes sense, I don't really examine an afterlife making sense.

Good observation, I've thought about the creation of the universe as well... how the hell did it come to be, how the hell does the big bang really work? Will it always expand? What if it starts contracting? Is there a limit?

wow, you are too external. Can you remember your childhood or babyhood? No right and You are talking about past life? Give me a break.

If you observe more closely, the universe isn't just a random creation of nature, look at the planets rotating around the sun with precision, look at the seasons on earth- they are spread so evenly, nature is so beautiful, so is the wildlife. All this cannot be done without a intelligent process.

That's kind of my point. If you look at it as a random process, the odds are so ridiculous it's laughable. Then again, who knows what can happen when infinite odds combine with infinite time. I lean toward intelligent design though.

Being uncomfortable with the random and indifferent nature of reality doesn't make it not so.

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: bignateyk

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: Woosta

Originally posted by: bignateyk
Life doesn't make sense either. Think about it. You live in this universe that had to have come from somewhere, but where the hell did it come from? You live on a habitable planet in the middle of that chaotic universe. What are the odds of that? 1 in trillions? even less? On top of that, you are an intelligent being on that planet. How many millions of years of evolution did that take? And why you? Out of all the other intelligent beings, and other life forms, why did you become you?

Until life makes sense, I don't really examine an afterlife making sense.

Good observation, I've thought about the creation of the universe as well... how the hell did it come to be, how the hell does the big bang really work? Will it always expand? What if it starts contracting? Is there a limit?

wow, you are too external. Can you remember your childhood or babyhood? No right and You are talking about past life? Give me a break.

If you observe more closely, the universe isn't just a random creation of nature, look at the planets rotating around the sun with precision, look at the seasons on earth- they are spread so evenly, nature is so beautiful, so is the wildlife. All this cannot be done without a intelligent process.

That's kind of my point. If you look at it as a random process, the odds are so ridiculous it's laughable. Then again, who knows what can happen when infinite odds combine with infinite time. I lean toward intelligent design though.

Being uncomfortable with the random and indifferent nature of reality doesn't make it not so.

There is no random- everything has a reason, if you are incapable of explaining something you call it as 'random', it's just that humans lack the capacity to explain the vast complexities of this universe. If an apple falls from a tree, it's not just a random occurence, you have to find the source of the cause, the apple fell because of the wind and the wind is caused by the sun which makes hot air rise up, sun is formed out of big bang- you have to trace it like that.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: FDF12389

Originally posted by: bignateyk
Life doesn't make sense either. Think about it. You live in this universe that had to have come from somewhere, but where the hell did it come from? You live on a habitable planet in the middle of that chaotic universe. What are the odds of that? 1 in trillions? even less? On top of that, you are an intelligent being on that planet. How many millions of years of evolution did that take? And why you? Out of all the other intelligent beings, and other life forms, why did you become you?

Until life makes sense, I don't really examine an afterlife making sense.

What he said

Fail, although the chance you exist is 1 in trillions, you clearly do, where as an afterlife makes no sense, and you have no evidence at all for it. So, believe in life, but not in an afterlife unless you find out it does exist.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: bignateyk

Originally posted by: Woosta

Originally posted by: bignateyk
Life doesn't make sense either. Think about it. You live in this universe that had to have come from somewhere, but where the hell did it come from? You live on a habitable planet in the middle of that chaotic universe. What are the odds of that? 1 in trillions? even less? On top of that, you are an intelligent being on that planet. How many millions of years of evolution did that take? And why you? Out of all the other intelligent beings, and other life forms, why did you become you?

Until life makes sense, I don't really examine an afterlife making sense.

Good observation, I've thought about the creation of the universe as well... how the hell did it come to be, how the hell does the big bang really work? Will it always expand? What if it starts contracting? Is there a limit?

Even the big bang doesn't make sense. Something can't come from nothing. There had to have been something there before. Even if all the matter in the universe was concentrated to one spot right before the big bang happened, where did that concentrated matter come from?


edit: And think about the incredible number of things that had to happen just right for your existence to happen. The odds are probably so small you couldn't fill thousands of pages with zeros before you got to the fraction that represents your life. It's almost laughable. You had to be in the right universe, the right place (our planet), the right time (evolved). On top of that, how many millions of sperm went into your mom, each one representing a different possibility for life.

Look up a singularity, also, yes there HAD to be something before, which also happens to refute the god I'm assuming you believe in.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: Udgnim

Originally posted by: Woosta
I just came to this conclusion by thinking this over and it makes perfect sense, really.. if I was never aware of anything before my birth, that is before brain cells started developing to form my conscience which I'm thinking through now, how could there be an afterlife if those brain cells and my body will convert into another type of energy, and my brain cells will cease to exist.

And for all those hospital scenarios where people see angels, isn't it basically or most of the time that our brain cells start thinking through every vision we've seen in our life and those are just sorta like hallucinations?

As for believers of the afterlife, assuming this exists and you meet your lineage/family/whatever, do you:

- communicate with them?
- assuming the form in which you die is sent to this supposed afterlife, would you have the ability to touch? assuming you *saw* other *people* in the afterlife what would you do? what would be the point if you couldn't reproduce? if there's technology, is it limited to what is on earth currently?
- if you DO see other humans in the afterlife and they're the stage at which they died, would you see lifeforms such as dead fetuses as well? because they were somewhat "human" for a point, just like us, and then died
- would you be able to eat? if so what?
- do you think other types of animals or life forms, such as single celled organisms also go to heaven? we are all animals on earth, really, its just some of use have more brain capacity than others which allows us to have more thoughts, be able to make smarter decisions, take advantage of technology
- would this be in the same dimension or a 4th dimension?

it's called faith

belief in something for no reason, or against evidence? that sounds like no reason at all!

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: bignateyk

Originally posted by: Zeeky Boogy Doog

Originally posted by: bignateyk

Originally posted by: Woosta

Originally posted by: bignateyk
Life doesn't make sense either. Think about it. You live in this universe that had to have come from somewhere, but where the hell did it come from? You live on a habitable planet in the middle of that chaotic universe. What are the odds of that? 1 in trillions? even less? On top of that, you are an intelligent being on that planet. How many millions of years of evolution did that take? And why you? Out of all the other intelligent beings, and other life forms, why did you become you?

Until life makes sense, I don't really examine an afterlife making sense.

Good observation, I've thought about the creation of the universe as well... how the hell did it come to be, how the hell does the big bang really work? Will it always expand? What if it starts contracting? Is there a limit?

Even the big bang doesn't make sense. Something can't come from nothing. There had to have been something there before. Even if all the matter in the universe was concentrated to one spot right before the big bang happened, where did that concentrated matter come from?


edit: And think about the incredible number of things that had to happen just right for your existence to happen. The odds are probably so small you couldn't fill thousands of pages with zeros before you got to the fraction that represents your life. It's almost laughable. You had to be in the right universe, the right place (our planet), the right time (evolved). On top of that, how many millions of sperm went into your mom, each one representing a different possibility for life.

actually, from what I understand, the big bang was not a concentration of matter that burst out to form everything. Before the big bang, there was nothing, and I don't mean vacume type nothing, there was absolutely nothing, you would be unable to exist even if you were put there, because there's nowhere to put you. The big bang was an expansion of space, this result of this reaction, the creation of space, was actually that matter and anti matter was created in the new space. Something I read estimated there were about 1000001 protons to every 1000000 anti-protons, which actually destroyed each other, meaning all matter in our universe is actually composed of the 1 extra proton/1000000anti protons created during this expansion (partially explaining why so much of space is empty i suppose). Of course, this could all be bs too, we just don't know.

I have more to say, but no more time, so I'll leave you with that.

So there was absolutely nothing before the big bang. What triggered it then? Even if the big bang somehow created something out of nothing, there is still no explanation as to what caused the big bang.

yes, because it's impossible to observe what "was" before the big bang, because nothing "existed"(in the sense of matter, energy, and spacetime), that doesn't mean we jump to an all-knowing being....

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: SparkyJJO

Originally posted by: Woosta

Originally posted by: bignateyk
Life doesn't make sense either. Think about it. You live in this universe that had to have come from somewhere, but where the hell did it come from? You live on a habitable planet in the middle of that chaotic universe. What are the odds of that? 1 in trillions? even less? On top of that, you are an intelligent being on that planet. How many millions of years of evolution did that take? And why you? Out of all the other intelligent beings, and other life forms, why did you become you?

Until life makes sense, I don't really examine an afterlife making sense.

Good observation, I've thought about the creation of the universe as well... how the hell did it come to be, how the hell does the big bang really work? Will it always expand? What if it starts contracting? Is there a limit?

Easy. Big bang doesn't work
Simple matter of cause and effect.

cause and effect doesn't apply before the big bang, because time didn't exist. a cause of something could be the effect often he same thing, don't even begin to assume cause and effect applies before time exists.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Flying a plane doesn't make sense until you understand how it works. Neither do televisions, guns, nuclear bombs. Even the most intelligent humans understand only a pitiful amount of the universe around them and the collective knowledge of the human race is not much to write home about.

doesn't mean we should assume an afterlife, ignorance doesn't mean we should guess wildly....

 

[the unknown]

Doesn't mean we should assume there is not an afterlife. There's as much proof and logic in saying there is one as there is that there is an infinite multiverse. They're just guessing wildly too.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: the unknown
Doesn't mean we should assume there is not an afterlife. There's as much proof and logic in saying there is one as there is that there is an infinite multiverse. They're just guessing wildly too.

The existence of an infinite multiverse is all but fact at this point, not wild guesses. While OTOH, the problem with the concept of an afterlife is that it assumes that life is strictly finite, when really that's an illusion of sorts, while adding on this idea of life after life, which is as logically fallacious as anything can be. Yes, yes, we all die. But look at the corner of your desk. Where it discontinues in space, would you say it dies? Likewise, your life in time. There is literally no difference. That we tend to think so is an illusion caused by the way our consciousnesses require the passage through time in order to exist and function.

 

[Leafy]

Originally posted by: Aberforth

There is no random- everything has a reason, if you are incapable of explaining something you call it as 'random', it's just that humans lack the capacity to explain the vast complexities of this universe. If an apple falls from a tree, it's not just a random occurence, you have to find the source of the cause, the apple fell because of the wind and the wind is caused by the sun which makes hot air rise up, sun is formed out of big bang- you have to trace it like that.

What you are referring to is the "Principle of Sufficient Reason"

The principle of sufficient reason states that anything that happens does so for a definite reason.

QM rapes it.

Originally posted by: Muse
I'm not sure that either makes sense to talk about. Consciousness > knowledge. What good is knowledge if it does not serve consciousness? There is no summing either.

Knowledge is impossible without minds. The truth value of which the knowledge represents and models is still there, though. It doesn't matter if the truth statement "This flower is green" is true in that universe, as you've said. But who cares?

Originally posted by: Baked
Everything is meaningless. Watch Matrix when you're high.

Fuck Descartes.

Originally posted by: tfcmasta97
Infinity: For every interval of time, there is an infinite number of divisions to it.

In before Zeno's Paradox?

Originally posted by: tfcmasta97
I had a non-perfectly ripe banana sitting on my table that had a hint of green yesterday. Today it is good for eating, nice and yellow. There had to have been an infinite amount of things happen, or infinite 'moments' from its own transition from green to yellow.

Zeno's paradox is reductio-ad-absurdum-raped by the conclusion it makes.

Originally posted by: tfcmasta97
Foolish as it may seem I think there are infinite 'universes' [as we define them now], within one another that can account for anything and everything.

That's not foolish, but it is conjecture.

Originally posted by: tfcmasta97
We may just be an atom within an atom within an atom kind of thing.

No, we aren't in one atom. An atom is made up of protons and neutrons and the protons and neutrons are made up of "up" and "down" quarks. So far as we know, quarks are the most basic particle.

Originally posted by: tfcmasta97
Intelligent design? not so much, we just came about as over-evolved bacteria that are foolish enough to waste our time contemplating our existence.

I'd hardly say it's foolish.

Originally posted by: tfcmasta97
I think every animal out there is smarter than we give them credit for simply because we cannot understand them.

Whales think it's great - who wants to bother with all that human fighting and human condition nonsense when you can just sit around all day eating plankton.

Originally posted by: tfcmasta97
For those who say there must be a god simply because it is 'so unlikely' for us to exist, as the number of galaxies we can see approach infinity it becomes more and more likely, probable and probably is that we are not alone in the universe let alone our own milky way galaxy.

This is a common tactic to get around improbabilities. You just get around the improbability (say of rolling a number on a die) by rolling an infinite amount of dice, or in this case the initial preconditions to the BB. It's conjecture.

Originally posted by: tfcmasta97
There is a border of 'this' universe as we can see how far out everything has gone from the big bang, and use this idea to define the age, size and direction of occurrences in our universe.

Can't rule out metaphysical possibilities. Your knowledge is based on the scientific method, so it's limited to within the scope of the universe. It rules out anything that "doesn't exist" according to science as the test that "if you can't set up a test to measure it, it doesn't exist".

Originally posted by: tfcmasta97
The hadron collider hopes to simulate the big bang by smashing what, 2 protons together?

No, thousands of protons. And it doesn't simulate the big bang, it just replicates the conditions slightly following the BB by smashing protons together.

Originally posted by: tfcmasta97
we may find infinite things happening there, things that we cannot measure because of scale and speed they occur at, so many things occurring because of 2 protons.

What?

Originally posted by: tfcmasta97
What is the basis of what we do? Eat, shit, bang and sleep. We feed on energy that fed on energy that fed on energy that fed on energy, each utilizing it in different ways and through different forms.

Back to autotrophes and sunlight.

Originally posted by: Aberforth
there is a wave of intelligence that always existed which ancients called as God, creation and creator are two parallel lines without beginning or end, it's a circle under which we filter out different subjects.

You're going to have to back that one up.

Originally posted by: Aberforth
Real truth cannot be categorized as scientific, philosophical or spiritual- these are different means of understanding but they are still half-truths.

Science, philosophy and bullshit aren't truth statements, they model reality and reflect truth statements.

Originally posted by: Aberforth
Why shouldn't one kill another if he feels good in doing that? why one shouldn't steal? why one shouldn't lie?

Because we're not DICKS.

Originally posted by: Aberforth
but these questions were really put into effect by some intelligence reaction that came from beyond, like pre-programming human beings. All of these questions about morality, humanity, intellect etc cannot be answered because they are beyond the field of reasoning, that which we call afterlife, God or whatever. Human beings cannot be unkind, cruel, untruthful - if they are then they are doing it under pressure of circumstances with sufficient guilt.

in other words, Goddidit. And of course God is a philosophical panacea, artificially and trivially plugging up the gaps in the shelves of knowledge. Never mind that God himself is unaccounted for:
Why does God exist rather than not existing?
Why is God the way he is rather than another way?
Why does God have an effective will rather than an ineffective will?

Religion is so lulzy.

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: Leafy

Originally posted by: Aberforth
there is a wave of intelligence that always existed which ancients called as God, creation and creator are two parallel lines without beginning or end, it's a circle under which we filter out different subjects.

You're going to have to back that one up.

I have sufficient proof and I don't have to prove it to anyone.

Originally posted by: Leafy

Originally posted by: Aberforth
Real truth cannot be categorized as scientific, philosophical or spiritual- these are different means of understanding but they are still half-truths.

Science, philosophy and bullshit aren't truth statements, they model reality and reflect truth statements.

Originally posted by: Aberforth
Why shouldn't one kill another if he feels good in doing that? why one shouldn't steal? why one shouldn't lie?

Because we're not DICKS.

right...can you tell me why are we like that? in other words 'good nature'.

Originally posted by: Leafy

Originally posted by: Aberforth
but these questions were really put into effect by some intelligence reaction that came from beyond, like pre-programming human beings. All of these questions about morality, humanity, intellect etc cannot be answered because they are beyond the field of reasoning, that which we call afterlife, God or whatever. Human beings cannot be unkind, cruel, untruthful - if they are then they are doing it under pressure of circumstances with sufficient guilt.

in other words, Goddidit. And of course God is a philosophical panacea

You do not know what God is or isn't, if you are imagining God as some being sitting on the clouds then I'd have to disagree with you.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: Leafy

Originally posted by: Aberforth
there is a wave of intelligence that always existed which ancients called as God, creation and creator are two parallel lines without beginning or end, it's a circle under which we filter out different subjects.

You're going to have to back that one up.

I have sufficient proof and I don't have to prove it to anyone.

Originally posted by: Leafy

Originally posted by: Aberforth
Real truth cannot be categorized as scientific, philosophical or spiritual- these are different means of understanding but they are still half-truths.

Science, philosophy and bullshit aren't truth statements, they model reality and reflect truth statements.

Originally posted by: Aberforth
Why shouldn't one kill another if he feels good in doing that? why one shouldn't steal? why one shouldn't lie?

Because we're not DICKS.

right...can you tell me why are we like that? in other words 'good nature'.

Originally posted by: Leafy

Originally posted by: Aberforth
but these questions were really put into effect by some intelligence reaction that came from beyond, like pre-programming human beings. All of these questions about morality, humanity, intellect etc cannot be answered because they are beyond the field of reasoning, that which we call afterlife, God or whatever. Human beings cannot be unkind, cruel, untruthful - if they are then they are doing it under pressure of circumstances with sufficient guilt.

in other words, Goddidit. And of course God is a philosophical panacea

You do not know what God is or isn't, if you are imagining God as some being sitting on the clouds then I'd have to disagree with you.

he's using the classic idea of a Christian god, 70% of the US believes in it. If your gonna pull some pantheistic god is "nature" crap, gtfo.

 

[Tweak155]

Originally posted by: videogames101
he's using the classic idea of a Christian god, 70% of the US believes in it. If your gonna pull some pantheistic god is "nature" crap, gtfo.

Doesn't matter what 70% of the US believes in. Makes nothing more or less real than it was before the belief began.

One of the the things I ponder is the mere existence of the laws in the universe.

The earth (and all planets) rotate around the sun (due to well known physics). The earth spins on a perfect angle to allow for life. The earth has more than what we need to survive.

These laws in comparison to say, a wrist watch, are much more complex. Not to mention the make up of molecules.

However, by comparison, a wrist watch is bound by its' own laws even though it is inferior on a large scale.

I mention this because I do not think it is possible for a wrist watch (or even a simple clock) to "evolve" into itself. I don't care how much time exists or is allowed to pass. It would never happen in my mind a device would create itself that tracks time (on any level or scale).

EDIT:

I use the word "create" itself when I should say "come into existence".

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: videogames101
he's using the classic idea of a Christian god, 70% of the US believes in it. If your gonna pull some pantheistic god is "nature" crap, gtfo.

What's wrong with a pantheistic god in this discussion except that it might interfere with your Christian god straw man? I'm not taking one side or the other here, but it's pretty obvious you've got a chip on your shoulder.
God might exist, God might not. An 'afterlife' might exist or might not. Who cares? If you're going to insist the other side of the discussion stick to your rigid ideas of Christian tradition so you can beat it up with your emotional and equally unfounded and irrational strong atheism, how about you gtfo, eh? Rationalism and intelligence have 2 things in common: they're open-minded.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Tweak155

Originally posted by: videogames101
he's using the classic idea of a Christian god, 70% of the US believes in it. If your gonna pull some pantheistic god is "nature" crap, gtfo.

Doesn't matter what 70% of the US believes in. Makes nothing more or less real than it was before the belief began.

One of the the things I ponder is the mere existence of the laws in the universe.

The earth (and all planets) rotate around the sun (due to well known physics). The earth spins on a perfect angle to allow for life. The earth has more than what we need to survive.

These laws in comparison to say, a wrist watch, are much more complex. Not to mention the make up of molecules.

However, by comparison, a wrist watch is bound by its' own laws even though it is inferior on a large scale.

I mention this because I do not think it is possible for a wrist watch (or even a simple clock) to "evolve" into itself. I don't care how much time exists or is allowed to pass. It would never happen in my mind a device would create itself that tracks time (on any level or scale).

EDIT:

I use the word "create" itself when I should say "come into existence".

Once again: probability. In a universe where conscious life like ourselves exists, the probability is certain that the conditions necessary to bring about that life also exist. The earth does not have more than what we need to survive, nor does it have any less. If it had more, we would be more. If it had less, we would be less.
And the complexity of a wristwatch is nothing compared to the complexity of life. A single-celled organism makes a watch look like something made by a child. However, in a manner of speaking, the wristwatch did evolve into itself, as life evolved to create it. Human life is not somehow separate from the rest of the universe.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: videogames101
he's using the classic idea of a Christian god, 70% of the US believes in it. If your gonna pull some pantheistic god is "nature" crap, gtfo.

What's wrong with a pantheistic god in this discussion except that it might interfere with your Christian god straw man? I'm not taking one side or the other here, but it's pretty obvious you've got a chip on your shoulder.
God might exist, God might not. An 'afterlife' might exist or might not. Who cares? If you're going to insist the other side of the discussion stick to your rigid ideas of Christian tradition so you can beat it up with your emotional and equally unfounded and irrational strong atheism, how about you gtfo, eh? Rationalism and intelligence have 2 things in common: they're open-minded.

Of course, I enevr once said an afterlife DID NOT exist, I said it probably didn't. We can't know ANYTHING for certain, but we can cay with a high degree of certainty that the belief in a god, say a Christian god, (and btw, it's not a straw man if it's accurate for 70% of the US) is irrational and makes no sense.

Irrational strong atheism? I have yet to hear a single shred of evidence of a logically sound arguement for the existence of any supernatural anything. Sounds rational to me!



So, in summary, I'm using the definition of god that the majority of the people I meet use, so I informed you that if your going to argue this idea that god isn't really supernatural at all, your just renaming nature as god. And my position isn't irrational, give me one peice of evidence, because god is a positive claim of the truth of the existence of a being, the default position is NOT to believe until shown evidence. And thats an extraordinary claim, so I'll need some extraordinary evidence, hence my position is very strong, because if anyone made such a crazy claim as a supernatural being that wasn't religion, no one would believe it without a TON of evidence.

 

[Tweak155]

Originally posted by: Vic
Once again: probability. In a universe where conscious life like ourselves exists, the probability is certain that the conditions necessary to bring about that life also exist. The earth does not have more than what we need to survive, nor does it have any less. If it had more, we would be more. If it had less, we would be less.
And the complexity of a wristwatch is nothing compared to the complexity of life. A single-celled organism makes a watch look like something made by a child. However, in a manner of speaking, the wristwatch did evolve into itself, as life evolved to create it. Human life is not somehow separate from the rest of the universe.

I stated come into existence itself. You can't just add life in to "evolve" the wristwatch.

However, its funny that you mention that. Because what "evolved" and gave the universe its' laws? Life gave the wristwatch its' laws, which life in itself contains intelligence, yet I'm to believe the more complex laws come about on their own?

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: Tweak155

Originally posted by: Vic
Once again: probability. In a universe where conscious life like ourselves exists, the probability is certain that the conditions necessary to bring about that life also exist. The earth does not have more than what we need to survive, nor does it have any less. If it had more, we would be more. If it had less, we would be less.
And the complexity of a wristwatch is nothing compared to the complexity of life. A single-celled organism makes a watch look like something made by a child. However, in a manner of speaking, the wristwatch did evolve into itself, as life evolved to create it. Human life is not somehow separate from the rest of the universe.

I stated come into existence itself. You can't just add life in to "evolve" the wristwatch.

However, its funny that you mention that. Because what "evolved" and gave the universe its' laws? Life gave the wristwatch its' laws, which life in itself contains intelligence, yet I'm to believe the more complex laws come about on their own?

The wristwatch was made by life, a wristwatch can't reproduce.

Anyways, your arguing the 747 arguement.

Your saying the universe is so unlikely it must have a creator.



Your arguing against your position, enter the ultimate 747.

God

An omnipotent being thats always existed. What the hell are the chances of that coming about on it's own?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: videogames101
he's using the classic idea of a Christian god, 70% of the US believes in it. If your gonna pull some pantheistic god is "nature" crap, gtfo.

What's wrong with a pantheistic god in this discussion except that it might interfere with your Christian god straw man? I'm not taking one side or the other here, but it's pretty obvious you've got a chip on your shoulder.
God might exist, God might not. An 'afterlife' might exist or might not. Who cares? If you're going to insist the other side of the discussion stick to your rigid ideas of Christian tradition so you can beat it up with your emotional and equally unfounded and irrational strong atheism, how about you gtfo, eh? Rationalism and intelligence have 2 things in common: they're open-minded.

Of course, I enevr once said an afterlife DID NOT exist, I said it probably didn't. We can't know ANYTHING for certain, but we can cay with a high degree of certainty that the belief in a god, say a Christian god, (and btw, it's not a straw man if it's accurate for 70% of the US) is irrational and makes no sense.

Irrational strong atheism? I have yet to hear a single shred of evidence of a logically sound arguement for the existence of any supernatural anything. Sounds rational to me!



So, in summary, I'm using the definition of god that the majority of the people I meet use, so I informed you that if your going to argue this idea that god isn't really supernatural at all, your just renaming nature as god. And my position isn't irrational, give me one peice of evidence, because god is a positive claim of the truth of the existence of a being, the default position is NOT to believe until shown evidence. And thats an extraordinary claim, so I'll need some extraordinary evidence, hence my position is very strong, because if anyone made such a crazy claim as a supernatural being that wasn't religion, no one would believe it without a TON of evidence.

Ah... teenage angst. I remember what that was like. Go protest to your parents if you don't like the religion they forced on you. I don't care.

First, pay attention to who you're arguing against. I'm not Aberforth. So don't put his arguments in my mouth.

Second, I couldn't give a shit if the majority of people jumped off the proverbial cliff. That means nothing.

Third, the term 'supernatural' is IMO as ridiculous as the term 'afterlife.' There is no supernatural just like there is no afterlife. If the supernatural exists, then it must be natural. Just like if the afterlife exists, then it must be the continuation of life.

Finally, the universe is not black and white (colloquial speaking), but shades of gray. As such, the 'default position' is not the negative but the null.

 

[Tweak155]

Originally posted by: videogames101
The wristwatch was made by life, a wristwatch can't reproduce.

Anyways, your arguing the 747 arguement.

Your saying the universe is so unlikely it must have a creator.



Your arguing against your position, enter the ultimate 747.

God

An omnipotent being thats always existed. What the hell are the chances of that coming about on it's own?

Are you serious? I don't think you guys realize you are arguing FOR a creation of some sort. If you think the the wristwatch could not be made without life, which is by comparison multitudes less complex than the universe, then why do you think the universe came to be without design?

Seems funny you don't realize what you're saying or at the very minimum - don't understand my point.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: Tweak155

Originally posted by: videogames101
The wristwatch was made by life, a wristwatch can't reproduce.

Anyways, your arguing the 747 arguement.

Your saying the universe is so unlikely it must have a creator.



Your arguing against your position, enter the ultimate 747.

God

An omnipotent being thats always existed. What the hell are the chances of that coming about on it's own?

Are you serious? I don't think you guys realize you are arguing FOR a creation of some sort. If you think the the wristwatch could not be made without life, which is by comparison multitudes less complex than the universe, then why do you think the universe came to be without design?

Seems funny you don't realize what you're saying or at the very minimum - don't understand my point.

You don't understand that a complex object that can't reproduce requires life to exist? The first forms of life was simply RNA organized by clay, Learn evolution before knocking it.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: videogames101
he's using the classic idea of a Christian god, 70% of the US believes in it. If your gonna pull some pantheistic god is "nature" crap, gtfo.

What's wrong with a pantheistic god in this discussion except that it might interfere with your Christian god straw man? I'm not taking one side or the other here, but it's pretty obvious you've got a chip on your shoulder.
God might exist, God might not. An 'afterlife' might exist or might not. Who cares? If you're going to insist the other side of the discussion stick to your rigid ideas of Christian tradition so you can beat it up with your emotional and equally unfounded and irrational strong atheism, how about you gtfo, eh? Rationalism and intelligence have 2 things in common: they're open-minded.

Of course, I enevr once said an afterlife DID NOT exist, I said it probably didn't. We can't know ANYTHING for certain, but we can cay with a high degree of certainty that the belief in a god, say a Christian god, (and btw, it's not a straw man if it's accurate for 70% of the US) is irrational and makes no sense.

Irrational strong atheism? I have yet to hear a single shred of evidence of a logically sound arguement for the existence of any supernatural anything. Sounds rational to me!



So, in summary, I'm using the definition of god that the majority of the people I meet use, so I informed you that if your going to argue this idea that god isn't really supernatural at all, your just renaming nature as god. And my position isn't irrational, give me one peice of evidence, because god is a positive claim of the truth of the existence of a being, the default position is NOT to believe until shown evidence. And thats an extraordinary claim, so I'll need some extraordinary evidence, hence my position is very strong, because if anyone made such a crazy claim as a supernatural being that wasn't religion, no one would believe it without a TON of evidence.

Ah... teenage angst. I remember what that was like. Go protest to your parents if you don't like the religion they forced on you. I don't care.

First, pay attention to who you're arguing against. I'm not Aberforth. So don't put his arguments in my mouth.

Second, I couldn't give a shit if the majority of people jumped off the proverbial cliff. That means nothing.

Third, the term 'supernatural' is IMO as ridiculous as the term 'afterlife.' There is no supernatural just like there is no afterlife. If the supernatural exists, then it must be natural. Just like if the afterlife exists, then it must be the continuation of life.

Finally, the universe is not black and white (colloquial speaking), but shades of gray. As such, the 'default position' is not the negative but the null.

First, my parents are completely open to whatever religion I wanted to follow, including none.

Second, I'm arguing against the majority not the minority?

Third, thats just semantics, god exists or not, call it supernatural or natural, existence is still a binary condition.

Wrong, for a positive claim, that is, a claim that something exists, the default position is negative. Example: The Flying Spaghetti Monster, unicorns, etc.

Understand, it's not a negative like, NO THEY DON"T EXIST, but rather, there is very little probability that they exist. I can epxress default negative like this:

(Things That Exist) = Finite Number
(Things I can Claim Exist) = Infinite Number

so, the chance that my claim is true

(Things That Exist)/(Things I can Claim Exist)
=
99.9999...% negative