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Things like this are why I'm voting for Obama

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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,192
8,778
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Nice dodge, CSG- You fail, of course, to actually address any of the questions raised, but doing that wouldn't suit your purposes, would it?
I addressed the tangent but it takes the focus away from Obama which is what my comments were about.

And no eskimospy, you have little understanding of Christianity if you think today's political views by the Christians are from the Old Testament. His misunderstanding or misrepresentation may be due to what he thinks of Christians though... so that I'll mildly agree with you on. That is why I made my initial comments - his views are warped.
In general, fundamentalist Christianity means stressing certain parts of the OT, the Pauline books, and the Revelation, and ignoring most of the 4 Gospels (edit: except John 3).

And on that note, I watched this video, and I don't see what the problem here is. Are you guys simply pissed because Obama speaks the obvious?

Here's a few simple questions that demonstrate the silliness of all this. If we decide that the US is a Christian nation, and base all our policy off of that premise, will the Book of Mormon be represented in our schools? Will we still teach evolution because the Catholics accept it? Will we tolerate homosexuality because the Unitarians and Episcopalians do? Will we dissolve the military because Jesus said to turn the other cheek? Will we pay 100% taxation because Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesars? Or will we do away with money, property, and the hoarding of wealth entirely because Jesus said (repeatedly) to that as well? You see how silly all this is?

And that's all Obama was saying in his speech. And yes, CAD, the "fundie fringe" don't actually know Christianity. If they did, this whole thing wouldn't even be an issue.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
71
Just one of the many reasons why I want Obama in office - not Hilary, not McCain, not xyz democratic/republican - Obama.

Curious, have we ever had a Political Science Major running for and having a chance of getting into office?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,153
22,748
136
Originally posted by: Tab
Just one of the many reasons why I want Obama in office - not Hilary, not McCain, not xyz democratic/republican - Obama.

Curious, have we ever had a Political Science Major running for and having a chance of getting into office?
Almost certainly. I haven't checked exactly but political science is pretty much pre-law, and seems like everyone we elect is a damn lawyer.

I thought this video was notable because while this sort of thing should be obvious to everyone, politicians have always been too afraid to say it.
 

Corbett

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
3,074
0
76
Originally posted by: Vic
You're asking me to prove that the rule of law takes precedent? :confused:
No, I'm asking you to prove that when I say its ok for the Bible to guide the way I vote on things, "The Constitution and the 1st Amendment say otherwise"

 

jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,181
609
126
Is there a reason why idiots like Buttbean are allowed to spew bigoted hatred on this board?
 
Dec 10, 2005
21,000
2,472
126
Originally posted by: jman19
Is there a reason why idiots like Buttbean are allowed to spew bigoted hatred on this board?
Because they're free to express their opinions provided they don't violate the terms of service?

Personally, I skip over Butterbean's posts as I know ahead of time that they are a waste of space and time.
 

jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,181
609
126
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: jman19
Is there a reason why idiots like Buttbean are allowed to spew bigoted hatred on this board?
Because they're free to express their opinions provided they don't violate the terms of service?

Personally, I skip over Butterbean's posts as I know ahead of time that they are a waste of space and time.
That's kind of my point:

You agree that you will not use our Forums to post any material, or links to any material, which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,192
8,778
126
Originally posted by: Corbett
Originally posted by: Vic
You're asking me to prove that the rule of law takes precedent? :confused:
No, I'm asking you to prove that when I say its ok for the Bible to guide the way I vote on things, "The Constitution and the 1st Amendment say otherwise"
I said, "You can vote all you want, but the rule of law takes precedent." And "This is a constitutional republic, not a pure democracy."

What part of that do you not understand? I'm gonna say the part where you ignored the rest of my post, eh?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,192
8,778
126
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Originally posted by: Vic
That's God showing everyone else what a moron you are.
Its good to see your a believer - I had my doubts once *High Fives Vic*
Hey, I love the Christian God. Seriously. Jesus is more than alright with me. I just don't like some of His more hypocritical followers, like you.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,386
2
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Originally posted by: Vic
That's God showing everyone else what a moron you are.
Its good to see your a believer - I had my doubts once *High Fives Vic*
Hey, I love the Christian God. Seriously. Jesus is more than alright with me. I just don't like some of His more hypocritical followers, like you.
ok GHANDI
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,192
8,778
126
Originally posted by: jman19
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: jman19
Is there a reason why idiots like Buttbean are allowed to spew bigoted hatred on this board?
Because they're free to express their opinions provided they don't violate the terms of service?

Personally, I skip over Butterbean's posts as I know ahead of time that they are a waste of space and time.
That's kind of my point:

You agree that you will not use our Forums to post any material, or links to any material, which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.
I'm all in favor of allowing Butterbean to continue to post here (provided he doesn't step it up too far beyond what he already has done). Crazies like him do a better job of making a compelling argument against their own whacked ideology than I ever could. That's why I initially thought he was a troll (making it all up). The only thing that concerns me is the need to balance his crazy shit out or else his fears could come true, i.e. I might have to come down on his side in some rare cases. In the meantime, your call to have him banned only heightens his paranoia and gives it legitimacy.
 

jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,181
609
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: jman19
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: jman19
Is there a reason why idiots like Buttbean are allowed to spew bigoted hatred on this board?
Because they're free to express their opinions provided they don't violate the terms of service?

Personally, I skip over Butterbean's posts as I know ahead of time that they are a waste of space and time.
That's kind of my point:

You agree that you will not use our Forums to post any material, or links to any material, which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.
I'm all in favor of allowing Butterbean to continue to post here (provided he doesn't step it up too far beyond what he already has done). Crazies like him do a better job of making a compelling argument against their own whacked ideology than I ever could. That's why I initially thought he was a troll (making it all up). The only thing that concerns me is the need to balance his crazy shit out or else his fears could come true, i.e. I might have to come down on his side in some rare cases. In the meantime, your call to have him banned only heightens his paranoia and gives it legitimacy.
I'm not calling for him to be banned, rather, I am questioning why bigotry is allowed. Just seems out of line with bannings I've seen in the past. Anyway, even if I was calling for him to be banned, that doesn't give irrational hatred legitimacy.

But like you said, I'm all for him making a fool of himself.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,192
8,778
126
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Originally posted by: Vic
That's God showing everyone else what a moron you are.
Its good to see your a believer - I had my doubts once *High Fives Vic*
Hey, I love the Christian God. Seriously. Jesus is more than alright with me. I just don't like some of His more hypocritical followers, like you.
ok GHANDI
Heh. You don't have to be a Gandhi to see the disconnect between Jesus' teachings and Christian fundamentalism. Same thing could be said even about Muhammad and Islamic fundamentalism. It's all "love one another" from the prophet and "kill all infidels and queers!" from the fundamentalist. Nuts, I say.

And who could disagree with Jesus? I invite anyone to find me one passage from Jesus in the Gospels that they disagree with. Just one.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,386
2
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Originally posted by: Vic
That's God showing everyone else what a moron you are.
Its good to see your a believer - I had my doubts once *High Fives Vic*
Hey, I love the Christian God. Seriously. Jesus is more than alright with me. I just don't like some of His more hypocritical followers, like you.
ok GHANDI
Heh. You don't have to be a Gandhi to see the disconnect between Jesus' teachings and Christian fundamentalism. Same thing could be said even about Muhammad and Islamic fundamentalism. It's all "love one another" from the prophet and "kill all infidels and queers!" from the fundamentalist. Nuts, I say.

And who could disagree with Jesus? I invite anyone to find me one passage from Jesus in the Gospels that they disagree with. Just one.
I can't believe you just compared Jesus with Mo. Mohammed was the taker of life; Christ was the giver of life. Mohammed promoted persecution while Christ forgave persecutors. Islam is irreconcilably hostile to Christians, Jews and unbelievers in Sura 9. Why don't you ask Christians, Jews, and infidels who have been on the receiving end of Muslim sharing-and-caring in Arabia passages they find disagreeable in the Quarn? The few that are left will not share your belief that Islam and Christianity are more or less equal in their fundamentalism.

PS I find almost every passage in the Bible disagreeable to combat a waring religion like Islam. Basically a suckers religion which is going to die as it has done where islam has spread. e.g. Copts in Egypt, Maronites in Lebanon, and Indonesian and Pakistani Christians, are gone or on thier way out.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,192
8,778
126
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Originally posted by: Vic
That's God showing everyone else what a moron you are.
Its good to see your a believer - I had my doubts once *High Fives Vic*
Hey, I love the Christian God. Seriously. Jesus is more than alright with me. I just don't like some of His more hypocritical followers, like you.
ok GHANDI
Heh. You don't have to be a Gandhi to see the disconnect between Jesus' teachings and Christian fundamentalism. Same thing could be said even about Muhammad and Islamic fundamentalism. It's all "love one another" from the prophet and "kill all infidels and queers!" from the fundamentalist. Nuts, I say.

And who could disagree with Jesus? I invite anyone to find me one passage from Jesus in the Gospels that they disagree with. Just one.
I can't believe you just compared Jesus with Mo. Mohammed was the taker of life; Christ was the giver of life. Mohammed promoted persecution while Christ forgave persecutors. Islam is irreconcilably hostile to Christians, Jews and unbelievers in Sura 9. Why don't you ask Christians, Jews, and infidels who have been on the receiving end of Muslim sharing-and-caring in Arabia passages they find disagreeable in the Quarn? The few that are left will not share your belief that Islam and Christianity are more or less equal in their fundamentalism.

PS I find almost every passage in the Bible disagreeable to combat a waring religion like Islam. Basically a suckers religion which is going to die as it has done where islam has spread. e.g. Copts in Egypt, Maronites in Lebanon, and Indonesian and Pakistani Christians, are gone or on thier way out.
Oh FFS :roll:

Pal, I've read both the Bible and the Quran from cover-to-cover in more than one translation each and you are whacked in this.
Christianity not a "warring religion" like Islam? That's just nuts.
A single chapter to show hate? There are dozens like that in the Bible.
And so forth. Quit looking at the trees, there's a forest out there.

 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,988
14,151
136
Your understanding is woefully lacking, Zebo. The Bible is one of Islam's holy books, with Christians and Jews, "People of the Book", having protected status. Jews stood shoulder to shoulder in the unsuccessful defense of Jerusalem against the Crusaders, and Sephardic Jews are Muslim nation's descendants of those expelled from Spain in 1492, where Jews had thrived for centuries under Moorish rule.

Which is not to say that the relationships have been entirely peachy, nor have Christians been entirely benevolent, either. Jews have been widely derided as "Christ-killers", suffered pogroms and extermination campaigns, then turned right around, persecuted the Palestinians. Christians haven't been any better in their treatment of others, particularly wrt the Spanish conquest of the New World, and then there's the small matters of the crusades themselves, the holocaust, ethnic cleansing, witch trials, and more, I'm sure...

Not to mention the Blood spilled in the Shia-Sunni cleft, or in the wars of the Reformation...
 

Corbett

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
3,074
0
76
Originally posted by: Vic
I said, "You can vote all you want, but the rule of law takes precedent."
Whats your point? That doesnt prove I cant vote for something because I believe in what the Bible says.

Originally posted by: VicAnd "This is a constitutional republic, not a pure democracy."
Agreed. Whats your point?
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Butterbean's POV pretty much speaks for and repudiates itself. Anybody who'll believe it was probably dropped on their head as an infant, or suffers from some other sort of organic brain syndrome.

GSG is by far the better propagandist.

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
It's speeches like this that may just lift the "religious vote" off their hands this fall and vote against him as he seems to purposely misrepresent Christianity. But I have no doubt that the secular people will eat this sort of thing up.
for the record, you claimed he misrepresents Christianity but you never backed that claim up.

Obama really creates a sense of panic and fear in his detractors. He speaks so much truth that it is shaking their faith and their comfort zones.

I love it.
For the record, you must have missed my post where I addressed it. Do you wish for a theological discussion? I don't, but using those passages show he either doesn't understand Christianity or he purposely misrepresented it. From what I've seen from him so far I'm betting on misrepresenting.

As to the second part. There is no panic but yes I fear what he would do to America. His brand of "truth" is dangerous but does not come close to shaking my faith. :)
You really addressed nothing, CSG, particularly not anything having to do with the modern Fundie Fringe, Dominionists, who lean very heavily on the Old Testament. Their POV has leached its way into many mainstream Christian Denominations, even though those who are affected seldom realize it. The notion that wealth indicates God's favor is very much Old Testament, as well, directly contradicted by Jesus' teachings. Nor have you addressed Obama's remarks wrt the Sermon on the Mount, possibly the most defining aspect of the Christ story.

The Bible, for example, makes no reference to abortion, at all, even though the practice was known and used even in biblical times. Yet it's been the cause celebre of the Christian Right for 30 years... Nor does the furor around it have anything whatsoever to do with the idea of personal salvation, supposedly the primary goal of Christianity in general.

It's not that Obama misrepresents Christianity, at all, but rather that he reveals its foibles and contradictions in a way that reminds us that a fundamental separation of Church and State have existed in this country from the very beginning. Many of the Founders weren't Christian, at all, but rather Deists, acknowledging the existence and the incomprensibility of God all at the same time... basically repudiating the whole structure and dogma of conventional religious practice and belief.

And you claim Obama's words are "dangerous", but only in a very generic way, leaving your audience to fill in the gaps- one of the most widely used propaganda techniques of all time. Dangerous to whom, and in what way? Specifically, what would be the negative consequences if more people thought the way he does, the way that many of the Founders thought?
This is a good post.
Seconded. It nicely highlights one of my biggest concerns with American Christians, or at least those who most loudly proclaim themselves "Christians". They ignore Christ's most fundamental teachings in favor of a potpourri of bits and pieces taken out of context to support their personal biases and hang-ups. Christ preached peace, love, tolerance, and generosity. They practice war, hate, intolerance, and greed. Christ preached against the money-changers. They are the money-changers. Christ preached a new testament. They cling to the old when they can twist it to justify their self-serving and hurtful behaviors.

Many years ago, I considered myself to be a fundamentalist Christian. I read the Bible several times, especially the New Testament, and I Believed. I became increasing disillusioned as I realized so many of the "Christians" around me really didn't practice what they preached. They went on and on about how the Bible was to be read as the literal word of God, yet blithely ignored it or perverted its plain and obvious intent whenever it contradicted or inconvenienced them. It became very clear that, far from God making man in His image, they made god in theirs.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic

And who could disagree with Jesus? I invite anyone to find me one passage from Jesus in the Gospels that they disagree with. Just one.
I might disagree with Jesus' message on these topics if I could only figure out which one is valid at any given time....

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true

.........

John 8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

...........

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

............

Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
 

jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,181
609
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: jman19
Is there a reason why idiots like Buttbean are allowed to spew bigoted hatred on this board?
The same reason Jpeyton and others are allowed to spew their hatred... ;)
Really? I'd say what Jpeyton says is closer to the type of political hackery which you espouse (which I certainly don't think is ban worthy) than it is to bigotry and hatred for homosexuals, jews, and muslems. BTW, that little wink doesn't make you seem any more clever.
 

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