"There is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas"

[Abwx]

I love the way you "think"!

You , you dont think..

People should be judged according to their acts, and the zionists nazi acts in gaza currently are these :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ66iHMCQls&bpctr=1406054113

This say that the zionists are nazis supremacists, this is visible even for the blind, all the rest, your talks included of course, are deseperate hollow sentences to try to defend what is indefensible.

 

[Harabec]

If it s egypt that doesnt matter since this is their dictator s point of view but surely not the one of the people, i suppose that others "arab states" are in fact the retarded gulf monarchies kleptocratic usurpatory kings?...

What...?
If it isn't totally anti-Israeli it is irrelevant and illegitimate, even when it is simply other arabs going against Hamas itself?

You are truly blind from all the hatred.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You , you dont think..

People should be judged according to their acts, and the zionists nazi acts in gaza currently are these :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ66iHMCQls&bpctr=1406054113

This say that the zionists are nazis supremacists, this is visible even for the blind, all the rest, your talks included of course, are deseperate hollow sentences to try to defend what is indefensible.

You caught me, I don't think...I'm just another puppet of the zionist nazi supremacists with an exceptionally low IQ to boot. If I were smarter, I'd be getting paid to be their mindless lackey!

 

[emperus]

I love the way you "think"!

When people say Exert American Influence. What do you think that means?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

When people say Exert American Influence. What do you think that means?

I don't know...perhaps you should ask those people advocating such exactly what they mean.

 

[emperus]

The Israeli leadership isn't completely without blame, I probably wouldn't agree with much that they do- the nature of governments in the first place is often nefarious and against the will of the people. However- in this conflict, they're MUCH more reasonable than the so-called "leadership" of the Palestinians, which are just a bunch of total thugs. They do NOTHING but use the people as pawns of war- their whole strategy is nothing but a PR campaign to fool the useful idiots of the world (of which unfortunately there are plenty).

They never put themselves near the line of fire if they can help it- they hide behind the common Palestinian citizens. It serves two clear purposes:

1. keeps Israeli forces from being able to surgically take out Hamas targets without harming the innocents that those scumbags locate their positions among.

2. If the Israelis do attack, innocents are bound to die (gee, if I hide my forces behind women and children, I guess that can happen, huh?) and Hamas and their useful idiots are there to use any (virtually inevitable) instance of it as propaganda to feed another flock of useful idiots for whom the very tactic itself is designed for. If any of them had a shred of a brain and a functioning soul, they would feel guilty about being used as a key element in the death of innocent people. The tactic simply wouldn't work if all the dimwits would stop allowing it to work. But, like I said- fighting a war via public opinion (Hamas tactic #1) is how evil regimes win.


As for the people of both sides: the Israeli people are CLEARLY more interested in peace than the Palestinians are, and are clearly the ones more willing to offer an olive branch, even help the other side. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that is again just a tool.

Too many Palestinians support the idiocy of groups like Hamas, and subscribe to all the "push the Jews into the sea" nonsense to claim anywhere near the same level of moral equivalence.

I actually have the most sympathy for the innocent among the Palestinians- those that don't subscribe to or support Hama's bullshit, that would make peace if Hamas would get the fuck out of the way, and that realize they are just stuck as pawns in the whole conflict. Unfortunately for them, there just don't seem to be enough of them to kick Hamas to the curb, knock of all the bullshit and stop their homes/people being used as cover for Hamas to make much of a difference.

This whole thing is written from the perspective of the more militarily advance occupier.

Let me ask you, what does peace look like to Israel and Palestine? Is it an independent Palestinian state with what borders? Does Palestine get to run itself and have an army? If Israel were truly in favor of peace why would they continue to build settlements?

Israel has no moral ground to stand on in their land grab. Even the UN recognizes that. The only circumstance where Israel is justified is one where military superiority makes justification. And if so, why would they ever allow the Palestinians to develop economically and in so possibly become threating in the future?

 

[Atreus21]

This whole thing is written from the perspective of the more militarily advance occupier.

Let me ask you, what does peace look like to Israel and Palestine? Is it an independent Palestinian state with what borders? Does Palestine get to run itself and have an army? If Israel were truly in favor of peace why would they continue to build settlements?

Israel has no moral ground to stand on in their land grab. Even the UN recognizes that. The only circumstance where Israel is justified is one where military superiority makes justification. And if so, why would they ever allow the Palestinians to develop economically and in so possibly become threating in the future?

Peace looks like Hamas stopping sending rockets at Israel and using terrorist tactics.

Secondly, Israel is only player with moral ground to stand on. They don't attack civilians deliberately. Hamas does.

 

[fskimospy]

Peace looks like Hamas stopping sending rockets at Israel and using terrorist tactics.

Secondly, Israel is only player with moral ground to stand on. They don't attack civilians deliberately. Hamas does.

It's really hard to see how Israel has a single shred of moral ground to stand on.

 

[Zaap]

This whole thing is written from the perspective of the more militarily advance occupier.

Boo hoo.

THIS sentiment is just the "how dare those Joooz defend themselves, not die in droves as the victim to 'make things fair' and so I can pretend to feel sorry about it" syndrome.

Israelis don't need to apologize to anyone for having superior military power. History has taught them (and CONTINUES to demonstrate loud and clear) that they are wise never to be disarmed by the rest of the world's aggressors/passive-cowards/stand-by-watch-them-die-pretend-to-give-a-shit, hangers on ever again.

 

[Atreus21]

It's really hard to see how Israel has a single shred of moral ground to stand on.

Really hard?

They've been nothing but attacked since their birth. Every time they've been attacked they've rebuffed their attackers, only to be demonized as an apartheid state for maintaining a bastion of democracy, modernity, and decency in the middle of a 3rd world wasteland.

The lands they are said to "occupy" were acquired after overt aggression against them. The west bank was acquired from Jordan after Jordan started shelling Israel, and then only after they rejected Israel's request not to join the war effort against them.

They gave back the Sinai Peninsula. They gave back the Golan Heights. They pulled out of Gaza in 2005 only to have the grateful Palestinians elect Hamas, who's sworn mission is not the Israeli pullout of "occupied" territories, but the elimination of the whole of Israel.

Israel's objective when they attack is not to target civilians. Hamas' objective is precisely the targeting of civilians.

Hamas uses suicide bombers. It indoctrinates children into a vicious hatred of Israel and Jews from day one. They say things like, "We love death as much as the Jews love life."

I don't see any contortion of the facts that allows Hamas to have the moral upper hand here.

 

[emperus]

Really hard?

They've been nothing but attacked since their birth. Every time they've been attacked they've rebuffed their attackers, only to be demonized as an apartheid state for maintaining a bastion of democracy, modernity, and decency in the middle of a 3rd world wasteland.

The lands they are said to "occupy" were acquired after overt aggression against them. The west bank was acquired from Jordan after Jordan started shelling Israel, and then only after they rejected Israel's request not to join the war effort against them.

They gave back the Sinai Peninsula. They gave back the Golan Heights. They pulled out of Gaza in 2005 only to have the grateful Palestinians elect Hamas, who's sworn mission is not the Israeli pullout of "occupied" territories, but the elimination of the whole of Israel.

Israel's objective when they attack is not to target civilians. Hamas' objective is precisely the targeting of civilians.

Hamas uses suicide bombers. It indoctrinates children into a vicious hatred of Israel and Jews from day one. They say things like, "We love death as much as the Jews love life."

I don't see any contortion of the facts that allows Hamas to have the moral upper hand here.

Selective reading of history.

 

[fskimospy]

Really hard?

They've been nothing but attacked since their birth. Every time they've been attacked they've rebuffed their attackers, only to be demonized as an apartheid state for maintaining a bastion of democracy, modernity, and decency in the middle of a 3rd world wasteland.

No, they've been "demonized" as an apartheid state by systematically oppressing opposing ethnic groups in their country. This is a simple fact. Why defend this?

The lands they are said to "occupy" were acquired after overt aggression against them. The west bank was acquired from Jordan after Jordan started shelling Israel, and then only after they rejected Israel's request not to join the war effort against them.

Yes, and as we've been over their actions in this land that they occupy (no quotes needed) is in violation of international law, specifically the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter. If you would like to get rid of those two treaties that's fine, but until we do there's no escaping the obvious conclusion.

They gave back the Sinai Peninsula. They gave back the Golan Heights. They pulled out of Gaza in 2005 only to have the grateful Palestinians elect Hamas, who's sworn mission is not the Israeli pullout of "occupied" territories, but the elimination of the whole of Israel.

If someone stole your wallet and then gave you some of your money back, did they still steal your wallet?

Israel's objective when they attack is not to target civilians. Hamas' objective is precisely the targeting of civilians.

Hamas uses suicide bombers. It indoctrinates children into a vicious hatred of Israel and Jews from day one. They say things like, "We love death as much as the Jews love life."

Israel engages in collective punishment, which is 1.) an obvious deliberate attack on civilians and 2.) a war crime.

I don't see any contortion of the facts that allows Hamas to have the moral upper hand here.

Hamas is a horrible organization. That being said, I don't view a rogue, war crime committing apartheid state to be morally superior to them. Your mileage may vary.

 

[cabri]

Interesting that people are trying to excuse the extrajudicial demolition of houses based on them being a suspect.

If the person has attacked Israel and they utilize the house...



Uhmm, you just described collective punishment exactly. If you're punishing an area instead of a person you're engaging in collective punishment.

This is a war crime, btw. How does this affect your views of it?

Israel is not going after the civilians because they are civilians. They are removing the threat location.

Hamas is the ones that place that threat location in the civilian domain.

 

[fskimospy]

Israel is not going after the civilians because they are civilians. They are removing the threat location.

Hamas is the ones that place that threat location in the civilian domain.

They destroy the houses of the relatives of people who are SUSPECTED terrorists. The Israelis themselves admit to this and say not that they are doing it to eliminate a threat, but to deter people. This is their own words.

This is also a war crime. Again, now that they are on the record admitting to war crimes, does this alter your view of them in any way?

 

[cabri]

That is another issue. The issue is who is starting the provocation. And you can't be taking people's land, indiscriminately destroying people's homes and killing it's people (including children) and act like you are the innocence.

Israel is behaving like a Bully. They have no moral justification in what they are doing. Their policy is might is right. We have might so just accept the inequality of the situation. No American would stand for that.

Ignoring what the Arab/Palestinian bully tried to do to Israel previously?

They dug themselves into this hole and have decided to keep on digging.
When their shovel breaks; they ask for another shovel, not a rope to haul themselves out.

 

[JEDIYoda]

They destroy the houses of the relatives of people who are SUSPECTED terrorists. The Israelis themselves admit to this and say not that they are doing it to eliminate a threat, but to deter people. This is their own words.

This is also a war crime. Again, now that they are on the record admitting to war crimes, does this alter your view of them in any way?

Your just being goofy......how do you just destroy a tunnel and not whatever is on top of the tunnel???

You can cry war crimes all you want...it`s meaningless.......
Look at the Boondoggle in the Ukraine......people crying war crimes....war crimes means nothing.......so quit with the knee jerk war crimes crap.......according to international Law what is taking place is NOT a war crime --

http://jcpa.org/article/internationa...-self-defense/

International law authorizes Israel to initiate military countermeasures in Gaza. If Gaza is seen as having independent sovereignty, Israel’s use of force is permissible on the grounds of self-defense. If Gaza is seen as lacking any independent sovereignty, Israel’s use of military force is permissible as in other non-international conflicts.

 

[Nebor]

They destroy the houses of the relatives of people who are SUSPECTED terrorists. The Israelis themselves admit to this and say not that they are doing it to eliminate a threat, but to deter people. This is their own words.

This is also a war crime. Again, now that they are on the record admitting to war crimes, does this alter your view of them in any way?

This is how you win an insurgency. See Chechnya & Sri Lanka. You need to make association with or support of insurgents extraordinarily costly.

 

[fskimospy]

This is how you win an insurgency. See Chechnya & Sri Lanka. You need to make association with or support of insurgents extraordinarily costly.

It was working so well that they discontinued it for years, saying that it was ineffective. It also seems to be working especially well right now, given the on again/off again insurgency that's been there for decades.

 

[Nebor]

You can cry war crimes all you want...it`s meaningless.......
Look at the Boondoggle in the Ukraine......people crying war crimes....war crimes means nothing.......so quit with the knee jerk war crimes crap.......according to international Law what is taking place is NOT a war crime --

Bush committed war crimes. Putin committed war crimes. Koni committed war crimes. Israel committed war crimes. Saying it means nothing. Meaningless words.

Except for Saddam Hussein, he got a little choked up over his war crimes.

 

[Nebor]

It was working so well that they discontinued it for years, saying that it was ineffective. It also seems to be working especially well right now, given the on again/off again insurgency that's been there for decades.

Because they're half-assing it for the media's sake. If they went after Hamas like the Russians went after the Chechen insurgents people would be having a fit and calling for international intervention.

Starvation, brutality, and mass punishment are the key to breaking a people's resistance. They need to see that the only hope to escape suffering is to submit and turn in the insurgents.

 

[fskimospy]

Because they're half-assing it for the media's sake. If they went after Hamas like the Russians went after the Chechen insurgents people would be having a fit and calling for international intervention.

Starvation, brutality, and mass punishment are the key to breaking a people's resistance. They need to see that the only hope to escape suffering is to submit and turn in the insurgents.

That worked really well for the Nazis too. They were crippled by insurgencies in most of their conquered territories despite starvation, brutality, and mass punishment.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Bush committed war crimes. Putin committed war crimes. Koni committed war crimes. Hamas has committed war crimes. <--- added for clarity Israel committed war crimes. Saying it means nothing. Meaningless words.

<-- I agree the words --WAR CRIMES -- are meaningless!! Lets move on..nothing to see here...

 

[Nebor]

That worked really well for the Nazis too. They were crippled by insurgencies in most of their conquered territories despite starvation, brutality, and mass punishment.

They expanded too far too quickly. In situations where a vastly superior force needs to break an insurgency in a relatively small, easily controlled area it works. How successful were the insurgencies in the Nazi concentration camps? The only modern insurgencies that have been won have been won with these methods. You'll never win the hearts and minds of those who hate you, you have to kill them and cow their families.

 

[fskimospy]

They expanded too far too quickly. In situations where a vastly superior force needs to break an insurgency in a relatively small, easily controlled area it works. How successful were the insurgencies in the Nazi concentration camps? The only modern insurgencies that have been won have been won with these methods. You'll never win the hearts and minds of those who hate you, you have to kill them and cow their families.

Explain the Dhofar Rebellion?

 

[Atreus21]

No, they've been "demonized" as an apartheid state by systematically oppressing opposing ethnic groups in their country. This is a simple fact. Why defend this?

Because it's not a simple fact. Arabs have more freedom and opportunity in Israel than any Arab nation. There are Arab politicians, judges, and business owners. They have the exact same rights as Israeli citizens.

Yes, and as we've been over their actions in this land that they occupy (no quotes needed) is in violation of international law, specifically the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter. If you would like to get rid of those two treaties that's fine, but until we do there's no escaping the obvious conclusion.

No, but there is no escaping common sense either by willfully ignoring relevant facts. Israel, as everyone should know, didn't acquire these territories by aggressive expansion. They acquired them because of hostility against them, and then in contravention to nearly every nation's practice in wartime, returned the vast majority of it.

If someone stole your wallet and then gave you some of your money back, did they still steal your wallet?

Yes. And Israel didn't steal anyone's wallet. If someone attacks you and you shoot them in self-defense, are you guilty of attempted murder?

Israel engages in collective punishment, which is 1.) an obvious deliberate attack on civilians and 2.) a war crime.

It is not at all obvious that it's deliberate, and that's going to require some sourcing. Meanwhile, Hamas' publicly states that all civilians are legitimate targets.

Hamas is a horrible organization. That being said, I don't view a rogue, war crime committing apartheid state to be morally superior to them. Your mileage may vary.

Hamas is a horrible organization...but not as bad as Israel?

Watch one, just one of the videos that Hamas' Al-Aqsa TV shows to children. And tell me you don't see Israel as morally superior. A freaking five year old girl being encouraged to express her desire to murder Jews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Q8K5TmivM

I defy anyone to point to Israel expressing anything even close to this level of hatred for Palestinians.