there has been talk of facism on this forum

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

I didn't manage to read past "while the Weekly Standard just provides intellectual support for people too dumb to think for themselves."

Comments like that is what makes it hard to take so many people in this forum seriously. Usually you're above that cheap kind of bullshit. Sad to see you fall into that trap of mediocre dismissal like so many of the others in here.

And yet you endorse the same type of comments, but worse, in the Weekly Standard article, which is filled with nothing but irrelevant sneering and selectively applied anecdotes.

From the very first sentence, the cracks about things like Naomi Wolf advising Gore to wear earth tones are worse misplaced snideness substituting for any actual argument - and the arguing method of cheery picking the areas in which the US is not a full-blown police state, which Wolf did not claim, to disprove the ways in which the US *is* on the wrong road, but fails to actually address her arguments, is the same lack of argument you criticize. But no rusprise, TLC, your own posting norm is to post dishonest attacks and run when caught.

Of course, as the article talks about how Sheehan is not a political prisoner, it fails to dicuss the fate of the half dozen homeless, mentally ill people in Florida the government trumpeted as a major terrorist group caught, who were guilty of nothing more than talking a lot of trash, with no means, no equipment, no organization, and who had committed one key crime, adding Al Queda to the many things they praised - when a government agent suggested to them it'd be cool for them to do so. 'Oh, ok'. Bingo! Arrested.

Of course, the lack of any *actual* terrorist attacks in the US, when any one terrorist could cross our uncontrolled border, get ahold of a gun, and shoot up a mall or school shows the absence of actual terrorists, and the need for the government to prop up its justification for ongoing hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayer money with the sort of arrest it did there.

When it tries to sarcastically refer to the corporate media trashing of Plame, it can't even make that case, when it's an article of faith among the right that her husband was nothing but a partisan liar, who was selected for a boondoggle by his wife - things that are lies, spread by massive propaganda by the right-wing media. And that's *their* hand-picked example of the media not being able to trash anyone.

When they are sarcastic about the muzzling of dissent, I think about the violent emotional reactions by the right to Michael Moore, the inability of one of our best investigative reporters, Greg Palast, to get published in the American news media (outside of books and liberal magazijnes), such that he describes himself as virtually in exile, reporting for the BBC.

The article's argument fallacy is like watching Nazi Germany say "ya, we oppress Jews - that's why Einstein was kill, rather than leaving safely and now trying to get a nuclear bomb built to use against us." You don't dispute one thing - the Holocaust or the charges in Wolf's book - with anecdotal evidence contradicting some straw man generalization.

Putin could use the same style today to say that obviously he's a dictator, because the world is unaware of his enemies' message, as they are silenced in anonymity, instead of being major national news stories with movies made about them; he could cite former Chess champion Kasparov, who ran against him in the last election, as a strong critic, who is safe and sound. Like the Weekly Standard article, he could do that instead of addressing the reports of hundreds of journalists killed, as the Standard ignores its enemies' points.

The argument style in the article is fallacious and falls short of proving anything but defeating its own straw men.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I didn't manage to read past "while the Weekly Standard just provides intellectual support for people too dumb to think for themselves."

Translation: The truth hurts, and I was afraid you'd post more of it.

You wouldn't know truth if you had its baby.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I didn't manage to read past "while the Weekly Standard just provides intellectual support for people too dumb to think for themselves."

Translation: The truth hurts, and I was afraid you'd post more of it.

You wouldn't know truth if you had its baby.

Oh, please, send me a year's subscription of the Weekly Standard. Obviously I could use some education.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

I didn't manage to read past "while the Weekly Standard just provides intellectual support for people too dumb to think for themselves."

Comments like that is what makes it hard to take so many people in this forum seriously. Usually you're above that cheap kind of bullshit. Sad to see you fall into that trap of mediocre dismissal like so many of the others in here.

And yet you endorse the same type of comments, but worse, in the Weekly Standard article, which is filled with nothing but irrelevant sneering and selectively applied anecdotes.
Anecdotes?

You mean the Bush admin really has imprisoned Cindy Sheehan? Valerie Plame is not working for Heidi Fleiss due to her pathetic financial condition? There wasn't a Pulitzer given for exposing a government secret publicly?

Yeah, anecdotes. Are you guys for real? Wake the fuck up, morons. You're not real, you're stupid, along with paranoid.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

I didn't manage to read past "while the Weekly Standard just provides intellectual support for people too dumb to think for themselves."

Comments like that is what makes it hard to take so many people in this forum seriously. Usually you're above that cheap kind of bullshit. Sad to see you fall into that trap of mediocre dismissal like so many of the others in here.

And yet you endorse the same type of comments, but worse, in the Weekly Standard article, which is filled with nothing but irrelevant sneering and selectively applied anecdotes.
Anecdotes?

You mean the Bush admin really has imprisoned Cindy Sheehan? Valerie Plame is not working for Heidi Fleiss due to her pathetic financial condition? There wasn't a Pulitzer given for exposing a government secret publicly?

Yeah, anecdotes. Are you guys for real? Wake the fuck up, morons. You're not real, you're stupid, along with paranoid.

Why is she on "the list?"
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

I didn't manage to read past "while the Weekly Standard just provides intellectual support for people too dumb to think for themselves."

Comments like that is what makes it hard to take so many people in this forum seriously. Usually you're above that cheap kind of bullshit. Sad to see you fall into that trap of mediocre dismissal like so many of the others in here.

And yet you endorse the same type of comments, but worse, in the Weekly Standard article, which is filled with nothing but irrelevant sneering and selectively applied anecdotes.
Anecdotes?

You mean the Bush admin really has imprisoned Cindy Sheehan? Valerie Plame is not working for Heidi Fleiss due to her pathetic financial condition? There wasn't a Pulitzer given for exposing a government secret publicly?

Yeah, anecdotes. Are you guys for real? Wake the fuck up, morons. You're not real, you're stupid, along with paranoid.

Before this post, I'd written but had yet to post:

TLC: trolls like crazy. Notice how he posts an absurd piece of propaganda, defends it loudly, demands it be taken seriously, and then 'refuses to read' Rainsford's response because it points out, in part, the lack of credibility in the source even while his own article he demands be read contains far worse vapid sneers; and then he skips Rainsford's next post to post a snarky one-liner to Bamacre.

As I said in my post, this is his trolling style - he'll squawk and make a ton of noise and then run away when confronted off to his next troll, without any shame, but full of vitriol that has no basis - all the while abusing phrases about how he demands substantive replies to his nonsense. IMO, TLC is the biggest troll.

But now, he's crossed the line, IMO, into moderator territory personal attacks, and I've no interest in further discussion with him.

And no one but him here appears to have explained to them that the fallacy of argument by anecdote is not in the anecdotes being false, as I made clear in my previous posts.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

I didn't manage to read past "while the Weekly Standard just provides intellectual support for people too dumb to think for themselves."

Comments like that is what makes it hard to take so many people in this forum seriously. Usually you're above that cheap kind of bullshit. Sad to see you fall into that trap of mediocre dismissal like so many of the others in here.

And yet you endorse the same type of comments, but worse, in the Weekly Standard article, which is filled with nothing but irrelevant sneering and selectively applied anecdotes.
Anecdotes?

You mean the Bush admin really has imprisoned Cindy Sheehan? Valerie Plame is not working for Heidi Fleiss due to her pathetic financial condition? There wasn't a Pulitzer given for exposing a government secret publicly?

Yeah, anecdotes. Are you guys for real? Wake the fuck up, morons. You're not real, you're stupid, along with paranoid.

Before this post, I'd written but had yet to post:

TLC: trolls like crazy. Notice how he posts an absurd piece of propaganda, defends it loudly, demands it be taken seriously, and then 'refuses to read' Rainsford's response because it points out, in part, the lack of credibility in the source even while his own article he demands be read contains far worse vapid sneers; and then he skips Rainsford's next post to post a snarky one-liner to Bamacre.

As I said in my post, this is his trolling style - he'll squawk and make a ton of noise and then run away when confronted off to his next troll, without any shame, but full of vitriol that has no basis - all the while abusing phrases about how he demands substantive replies to his nonsense. IMO, TLC is the biggest troll.

But now, he's crossed the line, IMO, into moderator territory personal attacks, and I've no interest in further discussion with him.

And no one but him here appears to have explained to them that the fallacy of argument by anecdote is not in the anecdotes being false, as I made clear in my previous posts.
iow, you still can't address the actual content of the article. No surpirse. The little socialist and communist wannabes that infest P&N like a plague would never recognize their own fallacies.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
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TLC, all the article displays is the fact that we aren't there yet. So, its obviously nothing we didn't already know.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: bamacre
The Weekly Standard, founded by William Kristol.

I'm sure they said Iraq was a good idea, too. :roll:

Exactly. Two words make that link and its "facts" horseshit, William Kristol. I wouldn't trust that man with anything I own, hell for that matter, anything anyone else owns.

Well tear up those facts then if they're such horseshit. I'm still waiting for someone to do that instead of all this pathetic posing a few of you guys are doing.

not everyone is willing to bother systematically countering endless streams of bs.

edit: both rainsford and craig did it anyways and you did the exact same thing that you accuse others of doing. Again, why should anyone bother replying to you?
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: bamacre
The Weekly Standard, founded by William Kristol.

I'm sure they said Iraq was a good idea, too. :roll:

Exactly. Two words make that link and its "facts" horseshit, William Kristol. I wouldn't trust that man with anything I own, hell for that matter, anything anyone else owns.

Well tear up those facts then if they're such horseshit. I'm still waiting for someone to do that instead of all this pathetic posing a few of you guys are doing.

not everyone is willing to bother systematically countering endless streams of bs.


In actuality, the article TLC posted doesn't refute Wolf. All it says is that it hasn't happened yet, which is rather obvious. He would just like to see it as something different. But like most neo-cons, he probably just wants to see what he wants.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: bamacre
The Weekly Standard, founded by William Kristol.

I'm sure they said Iraq was a good idea, too. :roll:

Exactly. Two words make that link and its "facts" horseshit, William Kristol. I wouldn't trust that man with anything I own, hell for that matter, anything anyone else owns.

Well tear up those facts then if they're such horseshit. I'm still waiting for someone to do that instead of all this pathetic posing a few of you guys are doing.

not everyone is willing to bother systematically countering endless streams of bs.


In actuality, the article TLC posted doesn't refute Wolf. All it says is that it hasn't happened yet, which is rather obvious. He would just like to see it as something different. But like most neo-cons, he probably just wants to see what he wants.

As opposed to anybody else? :confused:

 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: bamacre
TLC, all the article displays is the fact that we aren't there yet. So, its obviously nothing we didn't already know.
The article makes it plain that we aren't even close to becoming fascist, that we aren't traveling down that path, and it cites specific reasons why; reasons the fearmongering ones in this forum want to try to dismiss but are plainly evident to anyone who can still rely on at least a few functioning brain cells and can see past all the BDS-fueled rhetoric and hyperbole.

No doubt if a Dem gets the nod in '08 some tool on the right will try to claim they will be dragging us straight into communism or European socialism too. Then the usual suspects in this forum claiming Bush is leading us into fascism will be there throwing cold water on that claim. And I'll be right there with them tossing that cold water too. At that time it will become plainly evident who the real partisan hacks in P&N are. That's assuming they don't run and hide if a D gets into office out of fear that they actually have to be supportive instead of being pessimistic, derisive, snearing, fece-flinging monkeys.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
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Wow, funny how it takes so many posts to "dispel" the facts that Bush has taken us closer to a fascist state than anyone before him. But hey, that will never happen in the good old US of A so why even point out those steps. History is stupid anyway, who the fcuk cares if we are doomed to repeat it if we just bury our heads up our asses.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,739
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Seems to me that if you are moving toward or away from a fascist state you could make arguments that you are or aren't fascist whereas the real question you would want answered is in which direction are you going.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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What a joke. On one hand people say the President is too secretive, and then on the other hand they say Bush is trying to control the Media.

This is just pure cow dung.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,739
6,760
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Originally posted by: piasabird
What a joke. On one hand people say the President is too secretive, and then on the other hand they say Bush is trying to control the Media.

This is just pure cow dung.

Huh?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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350
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Originally posted by: piasabird
What a joke. On one hand people say the President is too secretive, and then on the other hand they say Bush is trying to control the Media.

This is just pure cow dung.

How are those inconsistent? You are making even less sense than usual.

Why don't you try to argue *specific facts* for a change, and not just throw out 'cow dung'?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
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Heh. The confusion derives from the fact that fascism is more of a state of mind than an agenda. People like to think of it in terms of comic book-like pure evil in order to deny from themselves the fact that they too would carry out a fascist agenda if only given the power and opportunity. When you have a vision of the way you think the world should be but is not, a way of life that you think will make people happier but they're not living it, and you're willing to do whatever it takes to make that vision real, including harming those "selfish and immoral" persons who dare to disagree with your vision, then YOU are a fascist. The only difference then between you and the pure evil you're afraid of is that they have the power and opportunity and you don't. But that's a practical difference only. Morally, you're the same.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
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This was a excellent post.
And should put to rest the naysayers who deny the US has moved and is continuing to move towards a fascist state.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
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Originally posted by: techs
This was a excellent post.
And should put to rest the naysayers who deny the US has moved and is continuing to move towards a fascist state.

:roll:
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: techs
This was a excellent post.
And should put to rest the naysayers who deny the US has moved and is continuing to move towards a fascist state.

If you mean moving to the right, then I think there's little debating that. But I don't think pointing at the ultimate right wing destination as the GOAL is accurate, anymore than claiming advocates of universal healthcare view the Soviet Union as their utopian goal.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Originally posted by: techs
This was a excellent post.
And should put to rest the naysayers who deny the US has moved and is continuing to move towards a fascist state.
There is no difference -- philosophically -- between a would-be murderer and a murderer in fact. Both have already committed the deed in their minds, the former is just waiting for his opportunity, while the latter has already had his.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Originally posted by: sirjonk
Originally posted by: techs
This was a excellent post.
And should put to rest the naysayers who deny the US has moved and is continuing to move towards a fascist state.

If you mean moving to the right, then I think there's little debating that. But I don't think pointing at the ultimate right wing destination as the GOAL is accurate, anymore than claiming advocates of universal healthcare view the Soviet Union as their utopian goal.

If moving towards the right means authoritarian, then there is no debating that. However, authoritarian can be an agenda of both the left and the right, depending on which aspect of it one means. So I have found that people who say that the US is moving to the right or moving to the left usually say that only because their own ideological bias.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
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Originally posted by: sirjonk
Originally posted by: techs
This was a excellent post.
And should put to rest the naysayers who deny the US has moved and is continuing to move towards a fascist state.

If you mean moving to the right, then I think there's little debating that. But I don't think pointing at the ultimate right wing destination as the GOAL is accurate, anymore than claiming advocates of universal healthcare view the Soviet Union as their utopian goal.

You're right that in theory, one doesn't mean the other - but in fact, it might be the case.

You might want to read some on the people behind the right-wing movement that put Bush in office.

Here's one good article.

Excerpt:

When pressed, Norquist admits that he has no idea whether Bush is truly committed or just playing politics--and that, in the end, it doesn't matter. "Is Bush, or Rove for that matter, a true believer?" he asks. "I don't know. I do believe he understands the center-right coalition." For now, at least, Norquist believes that Bush is wedded to the idea that it would be fatal, as his father learned, to alienate the hard-core conservative base. Like the Communists of the late 1930s, who slavishly praised Franklin Roosevelt even though they knew he was a card-carrying member of the New York financial elite, Norquist seems to acknowledge with a wink that Bush is a vehicle to advance the conservative cause one more degree.

"It's like this," he says. "Some of us in the movement want to get to St. Louis, and some of us to Utah, and some to Los Angeles, and some of us want to go all the way to Japan. Bush wants to get to St. Louis. Is there any reason to argue with him about the need to get to LA? Or to get really flaky and say we need to go all the way to Japan? Of course not."

Right now, "getting to St. Louis" means passing the tax cut--shaping up as the make-or-break event for Bush's presidency--intact, and Norquist is playing a critical role in insuring that business groups, antitax activists and a wide range of single-issue conservative organizations stay focused. "I would call him our field marshal," says Horace Cooper, who is counsel and director of coalitions for majority leader Dick Armey...

Easy to forget in the bustle of day-to-day battles is the fact that Norquist prides himself on thinking big. "That," he says, "is one of the reasons Newt and I got along so well." During one conversation, in a crowded hallway at February's Conservative Political Action Conference, Norquist reaches into his jacket pocket and extracts a sketched-out timeline starting in 1980 and going to 2040. On it, neatly arrayed in rows, are a dozen or fifteen projects of Norquist's "center-right coalition," some nearly completed, others not even to begin for a decade or more. Some, like privatization of Social Security, will take twenty years, he believes. Others, such as the elimination of racial preferences, abolition of affirmative action and even the elimination of racial and ethnic categories in future censuses--a package he lumps together as "the creation of a color-blind society"--may take longer than that. And some projects seem almost quaint, such as his quirky effort to name things, almost anything, after Ronald Reagan.

Still others can be won piecemeal, and right away. Asked to name one that might emerge as his next battleground, he pauses. Well, he says, there's the matter of all those state and local pension plans. State by state, he's planning to launch a campaign to dismantle and privatize state pension plans and their trillions of dollars of public funds held as investments for retirees. "Just 115 people control $1 trillion in these funds," he says. "We want to take that power and destroy it."