there has been talk of facism on this forum

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
I find it to be intellectually dishonest to judge history with 20/20 hindsight. There is no debate among historians that, from a PURELY economic perspective, Mussolini and Hitler were both considered to be heroes of the people during the 1930s. That does not excuse what they did, of course, but it does explain how many were upset with FDR's failed policies which kept the US mired in the Depression longer than any other industrialized country.


Originally posted by: manowar821
Hell, the next Einstein could be a 4 year old living in a gutter right now. Without socialized health-care, housing, schooling, or other methods of support, he may not make it to his 12th birthday.
Wow... nice pointless emotional argument. Or the next Einstein could be a wealthy son with enough leisure and privilege to have the time and money to study and experiment topics not essential to survival or subsistence. Hmm... I wonder, which scenario does history and science tell us would be more likely?
Next time, don't use the emotional fear argument. That's the tactic of a bad used car salesman. If you want to argue that the 4 year old deserves these basic methods of support solely to respect the dignity of humanity, then I would agree wholeheartedly.

The problems with communists are (1) they refuse to recognize that there is almost no difference between them and fascists, and (2) they refuse to recognize the obvious unintended consequences of their ideology. For example, when we're all equal, who will buy fine art? Who shall some great new chef prepare his new culinary inventions for? Who will fund the scientific endevours of the next generation of great minds? Answer: corporations. Collectives of people who will come together for power and protection. Individuals will lack the necessary wherewithall and government will be so vast and powerful that it will be faceless, blind, and unaccountable.

I DO think that a child deserves all the basic methods of support based on the fact that he/she is a living being. My "pointless emotional" argument was for those who have no heart.

On a side note, are you afraid of the color red?

I never said I was a communist, I do support socialization of some parts of the system, however. This is no way has anything to do with communism. I think you need to stop scaring yourself into fits of rage over the "evil redcoats". Simple capitalism is INFERIOR and a TERRIBLE way to run ALL of the social services. It just doesn't work. You need a mix of socialization and capitalism to keep people HEALTHY, and HAPPY. Then, on top of that, you need a representative system of government at the least, not a single "decider/dictator". A real democracy would be nice, but we all know that people have issues with making decisions, so they like to elect/hire representatives to do it for them.

The only thing I got out of your reply was that you're terrified of communism. I'm not even arguing for it. Jesus christ, man.
 

Albatross

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2001
2,344
8
81
the syndicate of mediocrity known as the socialists responds to the lowest instincts of humanity and it`s not gonna go away too soon.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: Vic
I find it to be intellectually dishonest to judge history with 20/20 hindsight. There is no debate among historians that, from a PURELY economic perspective, Mussolini and Hitler were both considered to be heroes of the people during the 1930s. That does not excuse what they did, of course, but it does explain how many were upset with FDR's failed policies which kept the US mired in the Depression longer than any other industrialized country.


Originally posted by: manowar821
Hell, the next Einstein could be a 4 year old living in a gutter right now. Without socialized health-care, housing, schooling, or other methods of support, he may not make it to his 12th birthday.
Wow... nice pointless emotional argument. Or the next Einstein could be a wealthy son with enough leisure and privilege to have the time and money to study and experiment topics not essential to survival or subsistence. Hmm... I wonder, which scenario does history and science tell us would be more likely?
Next time, don't use the emotional fear argument. That's the tactic of a bad used car salesman. If you want to argue that the 4 year old deserves these basic methods of support solely to respect the dignity of humanity, then I would agree wholeheartedly.

The problems with communists are (1) they refuse to recognize that there is almost no difference between them and fascists, and (2) they refuse to recognize the obvious unintended consequences of their ideology. For example, when we're all equal, who will buy fine art? Who shall some great new chef prepare his new culinary inventions for? Who will fund the scientific endevours of the next generation of great minds? Answer: corporations. Collectives of people who will come together for power and protection. Individuals will lack the necessary wherewithall and government will be so vast and powerful that it will be faceless, blind, and unaccountable.

I DO think that a child deserves all the basic methods of support based on the fact that he/she is a living being. My "pointless emotional" argument was for those who have no heart.

On a side note, are you afraid of the color red?

I never said I was a communist, I do support socialization of some parts of the system, however. This is no way has anything to do with communism. I think you need to stop scaring yourself into fits of rage over the "evil redcoats". Simple capitalism is INFERIOR and a TERRIBLE way to run ALL of the social services. It just doesn't work. You need a mix of socialization and capitalism to keep people HEALTHY, and HAPPY. Then, on top of that, you need a representative system of government at the least, not a single "decider/dictator". A real democracy would be nice, but we all know that people have issues with making decisions, so they like to elect/hire representatives to do it for them.

The only thing I got out of your reply was that you're terrified of communism. I'm not even arguing for it. Jesus christ, man.

And here you go again, pushing fear and lies.

I did not argue for "simple capitalism," and I'm not afraid of communism, I made rational and logical arguments as to why socialism is NOT safety nets and communism is not beneficial to humankind. If you wish to actually address those, go ahead. If you wish to keep lying and using emotional and fallacious arguments, then expect to be ignored as an idiot.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: Vic
I find it to be intellectually dishonest to judge history with 20/20 hindsight. There is no debate among historians that, from a PURELY economic perspective, Mussolini and Hitler were both considered to be heroes of the people during the 1930s. That does not excuse what they did, of course, but it does explain how many were upset with FDR's failed policies which kept the US mired in the Depression longer than any other industrialized country.


Originally posted by: manowar821
Hell, the next Einstein could be a 4 year old living in a gutter right now. Without socialized health-care, housing, schooling, or other methods of support, he may not make it to his 12th birthday.
Wow... nice pointless emotional argument. Or the next Einstein could be a wealthy son with enough leisure and privilege to have the time and money to study and experiment topics not essential to survival or subsistence. Hmm... I wonder, which scenario does history and science tell us would be more likely?
Next time, don't use the emotional fear argument. That's the tactic of a bad used car salesman. If you want to argue that the 4 year old deserves these basic methods of support solely to respect the dignity of humanity, then I would agree wholeheartedly.

The problems with communists are (1) they refuse to recognize that there is almost no difference between them and fascists, and (2) they refuse to recognize the obvious unintended consequences of their ideology. For example, when we're all equal, who will buy fine art? Who shall some great new chef prepare his new culinary inventions for? Who will fund the scientific endevours of the next generation of great minds? Answer: corporations. Collectives of people who will come together for power and protection. Individuals will lack the necessary wherewithall and government will be so vast and powerful that it will be faceless, blind, and unaccountable.

I DO think that a child deserves all the basic methods of support based on the fact that he/she is a living being. My "pointless emotional" argument was for those who have no heart.

On a side note, are you afraid of the color red?

I never said I was a communist, I do support socialization of some parts of the system, however. This is no way has anything to do with communism. I think you need to stop scaring yourself into fits of rage over the "evil redcoats". Simple capitalism is INFERIOR and a TERRIBLE way to run ALL of the social services. It just doesn't work. You need a mix of socialization and capitalism to keep people HEALTHY, and HAPPY. Then, on top of that, you need a representative system of government at the least, not a single "decider/dictator". A real democracy would be nice, but we all know that people have issues with making decisions, so they like to elect/hire representatives to do it for them.

The only thing I got out of your reply was that you're terrified of communism. I'm not even arguing for it. Jesus christ, man.

And here you go again, pushing fear and lies.

I did not argue for "simple capitalism," and I'm not afraid of communism, I made rational and logical arguments as to why socialism is NOT safety nets and communism is not beneficial to humankind. If you wish to actually address those, go ahead. If you wish to keep lying and using emotional and fallacious arguments, then expect to be ignored as an idiot.

Wow. Nevermind, you're a damn fool.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: manowar821
Wow. Nevermind, you're a damn fool.

:roll:

If want to argue for mixed economy, then call it that. Socialism is no more mixed economy than is capitalism. You don't see anyone argue for mixed economy by calling it capitalism, now would you? Socialism is not democracy either.
And if you want safety nets, don't yank the fear chain.

In the bit about communism, I explained how it and fascism are intertwined, and it's not hard to see how they are, or to observe how these 2 supposedly opposite ideologies always lead to nearly identical results in real life. To claim that I'm afraid of communism and pull the Red Scare nonsense when this whole thread is about being afraid of fascism was bullsh!t. As such, my point was that if you're afraid of fascism, then you should be afraid of communism as well.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: manowar821
Wow. Nevermind, you're a damn fool.

:roll:

If want to argue for mixed economy, then call it that. Socialism is no more mixed economy than is capitalism. You don't see anyone argue for mixed economy by calling it capitalism, now would you? Socialism is not democracy either.
And if you want safety nets, don't yank the fear chain.

In the bit about communism, I explained how it and fascism are intertwined, and it's not hard to see how they are, or to observe how these 2 supposedly opposite ideologies always lead to nearly identical results in real life. To claim that I'm afraid of communism and pull the Red Scare nonsense when this whole thread is about being afraid of fascism was bullsh!t. As such, my point was that if you're afraid of fascism, then you should be afraid of communism as well.

Yeah, don't care anymore. Don't be an ass and then expect a discussion.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: manowar821
Yeah, don't care anymore. Don't be an ass and then expect a discussion.

Are you talking about yourself?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Fern

So, not scary to me at all.

Fern

I imagine you won't be saying this if HRC gets elected.

Now that would scare me.

But it's a different type of "ism".

Nanny-state-ism.

Fern
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
The Horror! The Horror!

At the same time that Conason is looking back to a fictional past in America, Naomi Wolf--last heard from in 2000 advising Al Gore to dress in earth tones--is looking back to a real past in Europe, and seeing troubling parallels. In 4,600 overwrought words, she explained to the readers of the Guardian that there are ten steps to "Fascist America" and Bush is taking them all. He has whipped up a menace (the war on terror); created "a prison system outside the rule of law" (Guantánamo, to which public dissidents, including "clergy and journalists" will be sent "soon enough"); developed "a thug caste .??.??. groups of scary young men out to terrorize citizens" (young Republican staffers who supposedly "menaced poll workers" during the 2000 recount in Florida); set up an "internal surveillance system" (NSA scanning for phone calls to and from terrorists). An airtight case, this, and leading to just one conclusion: "Beneath our very noses, George Bush and his administration are using time-tested tactics to close down an open society. It is time for us to be willing to think the unthinkable .??.??. that it can happen here."

Well, this explains many things. It explains why poor Cindy Sheehan is now sitting in prison; why Bush critics like CIA retiree Valerie Plame have been ostracized by the corporate media and are wasting away in anonymity; why no critic of Bush can get a hearing, why no book complaining about him can ever get published, and why our multiplexes are filled with one pro-Bush propaganda movie after another, glorifying the Iraq war and rallying the nation behind its leader.

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, Cindy Sheehan is running for Congress; Valerie Plame is rich and famous; the young Republican "thugs" made all of one appearance seven years ago--chanting "Let us in!" when Miami-Dade County vote counters planned to move to a small inner room with no observers present; and press censorship is now so far-reaching that you can't even expose a legal, effective, and top-secret plan to trace terrorists without getting a Pulitzer Prize. "What if the publisher of a major U.S. newspaper were charged with treason or espionage?" Wolf asks breathlessly. "What if he or she got 10 years in jail?" Well, journalists have been harassed, pressed for their sources, and threatened with prison, but not by George W. Bush and his people. Back in the real world, only one prominent journalist has been jailed by the federal government in recent memory, and that was Judith Miller, imprisoned for 80-plus days for contempt by prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, the great hero of the anti-Bush forces for having indicted Vice President Cheney's chief of staff.

Looks like reality has a bad habit of putting the kibosh on that whole fascism thing.

But don't forget to quake in your boots because it could happen. :roll:
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The Horror! The Horror!

At the same time that Conason is looking back to a fictional past in America, Naomi Wolf--last heard from in 2000 advising Al Gore to dress in earth tones--is looking back to a real past in Europe, and seeing troubling parallels. In 4,600 overwrought words, she explained to the readers of the Guardian that there are ten steps to "Fascist America" and Bush is taking them all. He has whipped up a menace (the war on terror); created "a prison system outside the rule of law" (Guantánamo, to which public dissidents, including "clergy and journalists" will be sent "soon enough"); developed "a thug caste .??.??. groups of scary young men out to terrorize citizens" (young Republican staffers who supposedly "menaced poll workers" during the 2000 recount in Florida); set up an "internal surveillance system" (NSA scanning for phone calls to and from terrorists). An airtight case, this, and leading to just one conclusion: "Beneath our very noses, George Bush and his administration are using time-tested tactics to close down an open society. It is time for us to be willing to think the unthinkable .??.??. that it can happen here."

Well, this explains many things. It explains why poor Cindy Sheehan is now sitting in prison; why Bush critics like CIA retiree Valerie Plame have been ostracized by the corporate media and are wasting away in anonymity; why no critic of Bush can get a hearing, why no book complaining about him can ever get published, and why our multiplexes are filled with one pro-Bush propaganda movie after another, glorifying the Iraq war and rallying the nation behind its leader.

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, Cindy Sheehan is running for Congress; Valerie Plame is rich and famous; the young Republican "thugs" made all of one appearance seven years ago--chanting "Let us in!" when Miami-Dade County vote counters planned to move to a small inner room with no observers present; and press censorship is now so far-reaching that you can't even expose a legal, effective, and top-secret plan to trace terrorists without getting a Pulitzer Prize. "What if the publisher of a major U.S. newspaper were charged with treason or espionage?" Wolf asks breathlessly. "What if he or she got 10 years in jail?" Well, journalists have been harassed, pressed for their sources, and threatened with prison, but not by George W. Bush and his people. Back in the real world, only one prominent journalist has been jailed by the federal government in recent memory, and that was Judith Miller, imprisoned for 80-plus days for contempt by prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, the great hero of the anti-Bush forces for having indicted Vice President Cheney's chief of staff.

Looks like reality has a bad habit of putting the kibosh on that whole fascism thing.

But don't forget to quake in your boots because it could happen. :roll:

Please tell me thats not a weekly standard link. Do not tell me that Mr.PNAC/neocon central founders news reports are where you derive any sense of truth. DISGUST ICON HERE! (Anandtech fix that sh!t already!)
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
LMAO. So instead of disputing anything just cite Noemie Emery? That is some funny shit.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The Horror! The Horror!

At the same time that Conason is looking back to a fictional past in America, Naomi Wolf--last heard from in 2000 advising Al Gore to dress in earth tones--is looking back to a real past in Europe, and seeing troubling parallels. In 4,600 overwrought words, she explained to the readers of the Guardian that there are ten steps to "Fascist America" and Bush is taking them all. He has whipped up a menace (the war on terror); created "a prison system outside the rule of law" (Guantánamo, to which public dissidents, including "clergy and journalists" will be sent "soon enough"); developed "a thug caste .??.??. groups of scary young men out to terrorize citizens" (young Republican staffers who supposedly "menaced poll workers" during the 2000 recount in Florida); set up an "internal surveillance system" (NSA scanning for phone calls to and from terrorists). An airtight case, this, and leading to just one conclusion: "Beneath our very noses, George Bush and his administration are using time-tested tactics to close down an open society. It is time for us to be willing to think the unthinkable .??.??. that it can happen here."

Well, this explains many things. It explains why poor Cindy Sheehan is now sitting in prison; why Bush critics like CIA retiree Valerie Plame have been ostracized by the corporate media and are wasting away in anonymity; why no critic of Bush can get a hearing, why no book complaining about him can ever get published, and why our multiplexes are filled with one pro-Bush propaganda movie after another, glorifying the Iraq war and rallying the nation behind its leader.

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, Cindy Sheehan is running for Congress; Valerie Plame is rich and famous; the young Republican "thugs" made all of one appearance seven years ago--chanting "Let us in!" when Miami-Dade County vote counters planned to move to a small inner room with no observers present; and press censorship is now so far-reaching that you can't even expose a legal, effective, and top-secret plan to trace terrorists without getting a Pulitzer Prize. "What if the publisher of a major U.S. newspaper were charged with treason or espionage?" Wolf asks breathlessly. "What if he or she got 10 years in jail?" Well, journalists have been harassed, pressed for their sources, and threatened with prison, but not by George W. Bush and his people. Back in the real world, only one prominent journalist has been jailed by the federal government in recent memory, and that was Judith Miller, imprisoned for 80-plus days for contempt by prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, the great hero of the anti-Bush forces for having indicted Vice President Cheney's chief of staff.

Looks like reality has a bad habit of putting the kibosh on that whole fascism thing.

But don't forget to quake in your boots because it could happen. :roll:

Please tell me thats not a weekly standard link. Do not tell me that Mr.PNAC/neocon central founders news reports are where you derive any sense of truth. DISGUST ICON HERE! (Anandtech fix that sh!t already!)
Ahh yes. Don't actually dispute the content. Just bash the link and weakly try to dismiss it. Surely if it's a neocon fantasy you can easily disassemble all the falsehoods it contains?

Have at it.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
The Weekly Standard, founded by William Kristol.

I'm sure they said Iraq was a good idea, too. :roll:

 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: bamacre
The Weekly Standard, founded by William Kristol.

I'm sure they said Iraq was a good idea, too. :roll:
I may have to pull a Harvey and make a macro of this response. It could come in handy.

Ahh yes. Don't actually dispute the content. Just bash the link and weakly try to dismiss it. Surely if it's a neocon fantasy you can easily disassemble all the falsehoods it contains?

Have at it.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: bamacre
The Weekly Standard, founded by William Kristol.

I'm sure they said Iraq was a good idea, too. :roll:

Exactly. Two words make that link and its "facts" horseshit, William Kristol. I wouldn't trust that man with anything I own, hell for that matter, anything anyone else owns.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: bamacre
The Weekly Standard, founded by William Kristol.

I'm sure they said Iraq was a good idea, too. :roll:
I may have to pull a Harvey and make a macro of this response. It could come in handy.

Ahh yes. Don't actually dispute the content. Just bash the link and weakly try to dismiss it. Surely if it's a neocon fantasy you can easily disassemble all the falsehoods it contains?

Have at it.

Why is she on "the list?"
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: bamacre
The Weekly Standard, founded by William Kristol.

I'm sure they said Iraq was a good idea, too. :roll:

Exactly. Two words make that link and its "facts" horseshit, William Kristol. I wouldn't trust that man with anything I own, hell for that matter, anything anyone else owns.

Well tear up those facts then if they're such horseshit. I'm still waiting for someone to do that instead of all this pathetic posing a few of you guys are doing.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: bamacre
The Weekly Standard, founded by William Kristol.

I'm sure they said Iraq was a good idea, too. :roll:
I may have to pull a Harvey and make a macro of this response. It could come in handy.

Ahh yes. Don't actually dispute the content. Just bash the link and weakly try to dismiss it. Surely if it's a neocon fantasy you can easily disassemble all the falsehoods it contains?

Have at it.

Why is she on "the list?"
More handwaving. Typical.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: bamacre
The Weekly Standard, founded by William Kristol.

I'm sure they said Iraq was a good idea, too. :roll:
I may have to pull a Harvey and make a macro of this response. It could come in handy.

Ahh yes. Don't actually dispute the content. Just bash the link and weakly try to dismiss it. Surely if it's a neocon fantasy you can easily disassemble all the falsehoods it contains?

Have at it.

Why is she on "the list?"
More handwaving. Typical.

How about answering the question.

All that your Kristol-approved article states is that it hasn't happened yet. We already know this. It didn't prove anything else.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The Horror! The Horror!

At the same time that Conason is looking back to a fictional past in America, Naomi Wolf--last heard from in 2000 advising Al Gore to dress in earth tones--is looking back to a real past in Europe, and seeing troubling parallels. In 4,600 overwrought words, she explained to the readers of the Guardian that there are ten steps to "Fascist America" and Bush is taking them all. He has whipped up a menace (the war on terror); created "a prison system outside the rule of law" (Guantánamo, to which public dissidents, including "clergy and journalists" will be sent "soon enough"); developed "a thug caste .??.??. groups of scary young men out to terrorize citizens" (young Republican staffers who supposedly "menaced poll workers" during the 2000 recount in Florida); set up an "internal surveillance system" (NSA scanning for phone calls to and from terrorists). An airtight case, this, and leading to just one conclusion: "Beneath our very noses, George Bush and his administration are using time-tested tactics to close down an open society. It is time for us to be willing to think the unthinkable .??.??. that it can happen here."

Well, this explains many things. It explains why poor Cindy Sheehan is now sitting in prison; why Bush critics like CIA retiree Valerie Plame have been ostracized by the corporate media and are wasting away in anonymity; why no critic of Bush can get a hearing, why no book complaining about him can ever get published, and why our multiplexes are filled with one pro-Bush propaganda movie after another, glorifying the Iraq war and rallying the nation behind its leader.

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, Cindy Sheehan is running for Congress; Valerie Plame is rich and famous; the young Republican "thugs" made all of one appearance seven years ago--chanting "Let us in!" when Miami-Dade County vote counters planned to move to a small inner room with no observers present; and press censorship is now so far-reaching that you can't even expose a legal, effective, and top-secret plan to trace terrorists without getting a Pulitzer Prize. "What if the publisher of a major U.S. newspaper were charged with treason or espionage?" Wolf asks breathlessly. "What if he or she got 10 years in jail?" Well, journalists have been harassed, pressed for their sources, and threatened with prison, but not by George W. Bush and his people. Back in the real world, only one prominent journalist has been jailed by the federal government in recent memory, and that was Judith Miller, imprisoned for 80-plus days for contempt by prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, the great hero of the anti-Bush forces for having indicted Vice President Cheney's chief of staff.

Looks like reality has a bad habit of putting the kibosh on that whole fascism thing.

But don't forget to quake in your boots because it could happen. :roll:

Please tell me thats not a weekly standard link. Do not tell me that Mr.PNAC/neocon central founders news reports are where you derive any sense of truth. DISGUST ICON HERE! (Anandtech fix that sh!t already!)
Ahh yes. Don't actually dispute the content. Just bash the link and weakly try to dismiss it. Surely if it's a neocon fantasy you can easily disassemble all the falsehoods it contains?

Have at it.

That seems easy enough. As usual, Naomi Wolf misses the point by a wide margin...but then again, so does the Weekly Standard. And, again as usual, Naomi Wolf manages to hit a kernel of truth in the midst of all the flash trying to sell articles ("journalism" is a business now, after all), while the Weekly Standard just provides intellectual support for people too dumb to think for themselves.

I don't think the abuses of power of the Bush government need to be exaggerated, but neither can they be dismissed. The "war on terror" (as presented by the Bush administration) IS a largely manufactured menace that has been used to, among other things, win a Presidential election, invade a nation that posed no threat, and pass a number of unnecessary new "anti-terror" laws that give more power to the President. We DO have new prison system for terrorists that operates at best skirting the rule of law, and certainly operating outside the principles that founded this country. And we do have a government that seems pretty blatant about violating laws limiting their power. I don't care how many times people say it, warrantless wiretapping of any US person is not legal...and maybe more importantly, it's not effective. Now all these things together don't exactly make us a fascist country in the model of Nazi Germany or anything, but these steps should concern anyone with more than two neurons to rub together.

But the real concern has nothing at all to do with the government, it has, ironically, more to do with the crowd that reads the Weekly Standard. President Bush and the rest of his administration might be doing some questionable things, but they are only doing those things because their supporters want those things done. And those are the really scary people, because while President Bush is pretty tame on the fascism front, a lot of his supporters sure as hell aren't.

The Weekly Standard provides the best example in their article. It's true, revealing the warrantless wiretapping program did not result in journalists getting throw in jail or tried for treason, as would certainly happen in a truly fascist country. Only, I seem to remember a lot of conservatives at the time calling for just that to happen. There were popular voices of the right seemingly around every corner absolutely livid that the press would reveal an illegal wiretapping program...and throwing reporters in jail was among the mildest consequences wished for.

And that's the real problem, it's not that President Bush or any of his administration officials (or Republicans as a whole) are fascist wolves in sheep's clothing. After all, President Bush will be out of office in about a year and the Republicans are out of power in Congress for a while. There isn't enough staying power in our government to set up a fascist government, which the founders clearly intended to be the case. But the folks who want to execute reporters for "treason" when they do their job are NOT going away, they get a vote just like the rest of us, and there are more of them than I'm really comfortable with. That's the weakness of a democracy, it can protect the people from the government, but it's much harder to protect the people from each other. Basically, I'm not concerned that President Bush might be a fascist (and for the record, I don't think he is at all), I'm concerned that the average right-winger is a fascist.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
I think reading William Kristols "weekly standard" is akin to reading Joseph Goebbels "Nazi Times". The only value in reading it is to understand extremists psychosis.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
I think reading William Kristols "weekly standard" is akin to reading Joseph Goebbels "Nazi Times". The only value in reading it is to understand extremists psychosis.

Yeah, I'm sure that's why TLC reads it. ;)
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The Horror! The Horror!

At the same time that Conason is looking back to a fictional past in America, Naomi Wolf--last heard from in 2000 advising Al Gore to dress in earth tones--is looking back to a real past in Europe, and seeing troubling parallels. In 4,600 overwrought words, she explained to the readers of the Guardian that there are ten steps to "Fascist America" and Bush is taking them all. He has whipped up a menace (the war on terror); created "a prison system outside the rule of law" (Guantánamo, to which public dissidents, including "clergy and journalists" will be sent "soon enough"); developed "a thug caste .??.??. groups of scary young men out to terrorize citizens" (young Republican staffers who supposedly "menaced poll workers" during the 2000 recount in Florida); set up an "internal surveillance system" (NSA scanning for phone calls to and from terrorists). An airtight case, this, and leading to just one conclusion: "Beneath our very noses, George Bush and his administration are using time-tested tactics to close down an open society. It is time for us to be willing to think the unthinkable .??.??. that it can happen here."

Well, this explains many things. It explains why poor Cindy Sheehan is now sitting in prison; why Bush critics like CIA retiree Valerie Plame have been ostracized by the corporate media and are wasting away in anonymity; why no critic of Bush can get a hearing, why no book complaining about him can ever get published, and why our multiplexes are filled with one pro-Bush propaganda movie after another, glorifying the Iraq war and rallying the nation behind its leader.

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, Cindy Sheehan is running for Congress; Valerie Plame is rich and famous; the young Republican "thugs" made all of one appearance seven years ago--chanting "Let us in!" when Miami-Dade County vote counters planned to move to a small inner room with no observers present; and press censorship is now so far-reaching that you can't even expose a legal, effective, and top-secret plan to trace terrorists without getting a Pulitzer Prize. "What if the publisher of a major U.S. newspaper were charged with treason or espionage?" Wolf asks breathlessly. "What if he or she got 10 years in jail?" Well, journalists have been harassed, pressed for their sources, and threatened with prison, but not by George W. Bush and his people. Back in the real world, only one prominent journalist has been jailed by the federal government in recent memory, and that was Judith Miller, imprisoned for 80-plus days for contempt by prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, the great hero of the anti-Bush forces for having indicted Vice President Cheney's chief of staff.

Looks like reality has a bad habit of putting the kibosh on that whole fascism thing.

But don't forget to quake in your boots because it could happen. :roll:

Please tell me thats not a weekly standard link. Do not tell me that Mr.PNAC/neocon central founders news reports are where you derive any sense of truth. DISGUST ICON HERE! (Anandtech fix that sh!t already!)
Ahh yes. Don't actually dispute the content. Just bash the link and weakly try to dismiss it. Surely if it's a neocon fantasy you can easily disassemble all the falsehoods it contains?

Have at it.

That seems easy enough. As usual, Naomi Wolf misses the point by a wide margin...but then again, so does the Weekly Standard. And, again as usual, Naomi Wolf manages to hit a kernel of truth in the midst of all the flash trying to sell articles ("journalism" is a business now, after all), while the Weekly Standard just provides intellectual support for people too dumb to think for themselves.

I don't think the abuses of power of the Bush government need to be exaggerated, but neither can they be dismissed. The "war on terror" (as presented by the Bush administration) IS a largely manufactured menace that has been used to, among other things, win a Presidential election, invade a nation that posed no threat, and pass a number of unnecessary new "anti-terror" laws that give more power to the President. We DO have new prison system for terrorists that operates at best skirting the rule of law, and certainly operating outside the principles that founded this country. And we do have a government that seems pretty blatant about violating laws limiting their power. I don't care how many times people say it, warrantless wiretapping of any US person is not legal...and maybe more importantly, it's not effective. Now all these things together don't exactly make us a fascist country in the model of Nazi Germany or anything, but these steps should concern anyone with more than two neurons to rub together.

But the real concern has nothing at all to do with the government, it has, ironically, more to do with the crowd that reads the Weekly Standard. President Bush and the rest of his administration might be doing some questionable things, but they are only doing those things because their supporters want those things done. And those are the really scary people, because while President Bush is pretty tame on the fascism front, a lot of his supporters sure as hell aren't.

The Weekly Standard provides the best example in their article. It's true, revealing the warrantless wiretapping program did not result in journalists getting throw in jail or tried for treason, as would certainly happen in a truly fascist country. Only, I seem to remember a lot of conservatives at the time calling for just that to happen. There were popular voices of the right seemingly around every corner absolutely livid that the press would reveal an illegal wiretapping program...and throwing reporters in jail was among the mildest consequences wished for.

And that's the real problem, it's not that President Bush or any of his administration officials (or Republicans as a whole) are fascist wolves in sheep's clothing. After all, President Bush will be out of office in about a year and the Republicans are out of power in Congress for a while. There isn't enough staying power in our government to set up a fascist government, which the founders clearly intended to be the case. But the folks who want to execute reporters for "treason" when they do their job are NOT going away, they get a vote just like the rest of us, and there are more of them than I'm really comfortable with. That's the weakness of a democracy, it can protect the people from the government, but it's much harder to protect the people from each other. Basically, I'm not concerned that President Bush might be a fascist (and for the record, I don't think he is at all), I'm concerned that the average right-winger is a fascist.
I didn't manage to read past "while the Weekly Standard just provides intellectual support for people too dumb to think for themselves."

Comments like that is what makes it hard to take so many people in this forum seriously. Usually you're above that cheap kind of bullshit. Sad to see you fall into that trap of mediocre dismissal like so many of the others in here.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The Horror! The Horror!

At the same time that Conason is looking back to a fictional past in America, Naomi Wolf--last heard from in 2000 advising Al Gore to dress in earth tones--is looking back to a real past in Europe, and seeing troubling parallels. In 4,600 overwrought words, she explained to the readers of the Guardian that there are ten steps to "Fascist America" and Bush is taking them all. He has whipped up a menace (the war on terror); created "a prison system outside the rule of law" (Guantánamo, to which public dissidents, including "clergy and journalists" will be sent "soon enough"); developed "a thug caste .??.??. groups of scary young men out to terrorize citizens" (young Republican staffers who supposedly "menaced poll workers" during the 2000 recount in Florida); set up an "internal surveillance system" (NSA scanning for phone calls to and from terrorists). An airtight case, this, and leading to just one conclusion: "Beneath our very noses, George Bush and his administration are using time-tested tactics to close down an open society. It is time for us to be willing to think the unthinkable .??.??. that it can happen here."

Well, this explains many things. It explains why poor Cindy Sheehan is now sitting in prison; why Bush critics like CIA retiree Valerie Plame have been ostracized by the corporate media and are wasting away in anonymity; why no critic of Bush can get a hearing, why no book complaining about him can ever get published, and why our multiplexes are filled with one pro-Bush propaganda movie after another, glorifying the Iraq war and rallying the nation behind its leader.

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, Cindy Sheehan is running for Congress; Valerie Plame is rich and famous; the young Republican "thugs" made all of one appearance seven years ago--chanting "Let us in!" when Miami-Dade County vote counters planned to move to a small inner room with no observers present; and press censorship is now so far-reaching that you can't even expose a legal, effective, and top-secret plan to trace terrorists without getting a Pulitzer Prize. "What if the publisher of a major U.S. newspaper were charged with treason or espionage?" Wolf asks breathlessly. "What if he or she got 10 years in jail?" Well, journalists have been harassed, pressed for their sources, and threatened with prison, but not by George W. Bush and his people. Back in the real world, only one prominent journalist has been jailed by the federal government in recent memory, and that was Judith Miller, imprisoned for 80-plus days for contempt by prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, the great hero of the anti-Bush forces for having indicted Vice President Cheney's chief of staff.

Looks like reality has a bad habit of putting the kibosh on that whole fascism thing.

But don't forget to quake in your boots because it could happen. :roll:

Please tell me thats not a weekly standard link. Do not tell me that Mr.PNAC/neocon central founders news reports are where you derive any sense of truth. DISGUST ICON HERE! (Anandtech fix that sh!t already!)
Ahh yes. Don't actually dispute the content. Just bash the link and weakly try to dismiss it. Surely if it's a neocon fantasy you can easily disassemble all the falsehoods it contains?

Have at it.

That seems easy enough. As usual, Naomi Wolf misses the point by a wide margin...but then again, so does the Weekly Standard. And, again as usual, Naomi Wolf manages to hit a kernel of truth in the midst of all the flash trying to sell articles ("journalism" is a business now, after all), while the Weekly Standard just provides intellectual support for people too dumb to think for themselves.

I don't think the abuses of power of the Bush government need to be exaggerated, but neither can they be dismissed. The "war on terror" (as presented by the Bush administration) IS a largely manufactured menace that has been used to, among other things, win a Presidential election, invade a nation that posed no threat, and pass a number of unnecessary new "anti-terror" laws that give more power to the President. We DO have new prison system for terrorists that operates at best skirting the rule of law, and certainly operating outside the principles that founded this country. And we do have a government that seems pretty blatant about violating laws limiting their power. I don't care how many times people say it, warrantless wiretapping of any US person is not legal...and maybe more importantly, it's not effective. Now all these things together don't exactly make us a fascist country in the model of Nazi Germany or anything, but these steps should concern anyone with more than two neurons to rub together.

But the real concern has nothing at all to do with the government, it has, ironically, more to do with the crowd that reads the Weekly Standard. President Bush and the rest of his administration might be doing some questionable things, but they are only doing those things because their supporters want those things done. And those are the really scary people, because while President Bush is pretty tame on the fascism front, a lot of his supporters sure as hell aren't.

The Weekly Standard provides the best example in their article. It's true, revealing the warrantless wiretapping program did not result in journalists getting throw in jail or tried for treason, as would certainly happen in a truly fascist country. Only, I seem to remember a lot of conservatives at the time calling for just that to happen. There were popular voices of the right seemingly around every corner absolutely livid that the press would reveal an illegal wiretapping program...and throwing reporters in jail was among the mildest consequences wished for.

And that's the real problem, it's not that President Bush or any of his administration officials (or Republicans as a whole) are fascist wolves in sheep's clothing. After all, President Bush will be out of office in about a year and the Republicans are out of power in Congress for a while. There isn't enough staying power in our government to set up a fascist government, which the founders clearly intended to be the case. But the folks who want to execute reporters for "treason" when they do their job are NOT going away, they get a vote just like the rest of us, and there are more of them than I'm really comfortable with. That's the weakness of a democracy, it can protect the people from the government, but it's much harder to protect the people from each other. Basically, I'm not concerned that President Bush might be a fascist (and for the record, I don't think he is at all), I'm concerned that the average right-winger is a fascist.
I didn't manage to read past "while the Weekly Standard just provides intellectual support for people too dumb to think for themselves."

Comments like that is what makes it hard to take so many people in this forum seriously. Usually you're above that cheap kind of bullshit. Sad to see you fall into that trap of mediocre dismissal like so many of the others in here.

Maybe you should try reading the rest of my post?

My comment on the Weekly Standard was NOT made as a "mediocre dismissal" of the material, as the fact that I then spent several paragraphs talking about how they are wrong would indicated. But the fact that they are wrong on this particular issue does not also mean they can't be a bad source of information in general. Not because of something especially wrong with them, but because of a problem with the entire partisan press premise. I find partisan alternative media to be pretty entertaining, and I often read liberally biased books like those written by Al Franken because I think they can be pretty funny. But substituting them for real sources of news and information is a bad idea, because you really are just using it the way a drunk uses a light pole...far more for support than illumination.

Really, they are two separate issues, but that doesn't make either point any less true. And while I don't like people who just dismiss everything with some witty one-liner, I don't think that's what I did here...and I don't think you think so either.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I didn't manage to read past "while the Weekly Standard just provides intellectual support for people too dumb to think for themselves."

Translation: The truth hurts, and I was afraid you'd post more of it.