there has been talk of facism on this forum

[event8horizon]

In 1933, Marine Corps Maj.-Gen. Smedley Butler was approached by a wealthy and secretive group of industrialists and bankers, including Prescott Bush the current President's grandfather, who asked him to command a 500,000 strong rogue army of veterans that would help stage a coup to topple then President Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

According to the BBC, the plotters intended to impose a fascist takeover and "Adopt the policies of Hitler and Mussolini to beat the great depression."

The conspirators were operating under the umbrella of a front group called the American Liberty League, which included many families that are still household names today, including Heinz, Colgate, Birds Eye and General Motors.

more on wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot


In 1936, William Dodd, the U.S. Ambassador to Germany, wrote a letter to President Roosevelt in which he stated,

"A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime.... A prominent executive of one of the largest corporations, told me point blank that he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism into America if President Roosevelt continued his progressive policies. Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there. Propagandists for fascist groups try to dismiss the fascist scare. We should be aware of the symptoms. When industrialists ignore laws designed for social and economic progress they will seek recourse to a fascist state when the institutions of our government compel them to comply with the provisions."

judge for yourself if it is based in reality or some conspiracy tin foil hat thing!!

or if u would like to kick back and listen to an audio version on bbc website-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hi...ocument_20070723.shtml

****this goes into who funded hitler.
http://www.reformation.org/wall-st-hitler.html

 

[heyheybooboo]

14 Points of Fascism

 

[miketheidiot]

i don't think its even a conspiracy theory, some people were convicted for this iirc.

 

[brxndxn]

This is scary.. considering a LOT of those involved share the same last names as our lawmakers.

 

[Ozoned]

Isn't there enough Ron Paul threads with out starting another?

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: brxndxn
This is scary.. considering a LOT of those involved share the same last names as our lawmakers.

I don't doubt that there was some talk. Many were unhappy, the Great Depression had been lingering for quite a while, desperation reigned etc. Then the military had not received their bonuses etc.

Then they saw how Germany was growing and become more prosperous etc.

It was also a far different time in terms of comuinaction, in terms of understanding economic theory etc.

But absolutely nothing happened. If the rich & powerful coundn't make it happen back then, good luck doing it these days. Andas for the days, the facist model is way out of favor. I suppose if everybodies income was basically cut in half there would be a lot of agitating. I just don't think it would be for a facist model though.

The measure of the strenght of your governmenatl system is not that never has challenges, but rather that it has survived those that have ocurred.

So, not scary to me at all.

Fern

 

[NaughtyGeek]

WTF does this have to do with Ron Paul?

Fern, I would argue that a great deal of families have had their incomes cut in half over the last 3 years due to the huge increase in energy costs. Do I think Fascism is coming to town tomorrow, no. But, I personally see some pretty powerful fascist influences in our system right now and have a gut feel that Bush Jr. isn't exactly opposed to the notion.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Fern

But absolutely nothing happened. If the rich & powerful coundn't make it happen back then, good luck doing it these days. Andas for the days, the facist model is way out of favor. I suppose if everybodies income was basically cut in half there would be a lot of agitating. I just don't think it would be for a facist model though.


Fern

no way are people going to be clamoring for anything remotely libertarian if shit goes south really hard.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: brxndxn
This is scary.. considering a LOT of those involved share the same last names as our lawmakers.

But absolutely nothing happened.

Because Butler exposed the conspiracy.

If the rich & powerful coundn't make it happen back then, good luck doing it these days.

Back then - as in the height of the anti-conservative public opinion, following the great depression and when FDR was the beloved president?

As opposed to now, the era when the public elects horrible representatives of the super wealthy who get away with murder in serving those super wealthy?

Andas for the days, the facist model is way out of favor.

You know, there's 'old' fascism and 'new' fascism. Similar to how there was 'old' colonialism, with troops and governors occupying and running a third world country, and 'new' colonialism, begun in the 50's/60's, in which the troops and governors weren't so much needed, while the economic controls actually increased if anything, such as the US has with many countries now.

The same power and concentration of wealth that fascism brings, exist now anyway without the ugly methods that stir up the public, so why need the old style fascism?

I suppose if everybodies income was basically cut in half there would be a lot of agitating. I just don't think it would be for a facist model though.

Check the relative incomes and wealth of the top 0.1% versus the bottom 80% before Reagan and now. That's effectively happened.[/quote]

The measure of the strenght of your governmenatl system is not that never has challenges, but rather that it has survived those that have ocurred.

So, not scary to me at all.

Fern[/quote]

I think that's foolish not to pay attention to such real threats to democracy. I guess you disagree with the founding fathers' statements on eternal vigilance being the price of liberty.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: event8horizon
In 1933, Marine Corps Maj.-Gen. Smedley Butler was approached by a wealthy and secretive group of industrialists and bankers, including Prescott Bush the current President's grandfather, who asked him to command a 500,000 strong rogue army of veterans that would help stage a coup to topple then President Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

According to the BBC, the plotters intended to impose a fascist takeover and "Adopt the policies of Hitler and Mussolini to beat the great depression."

The conspirators were operating under the umbrella of a front group called the American Liberty League, which included many families that are still household names today, including Heinz, Colgate, Birds Eye and General Motors.

more on wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot


In 1936, William Dodd, the U.S. Ambassador to Germany, wrote a letter to President Roosevelt in which he stated,

"A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime.... A prominent executive of one of the largest corporations, told me point blank that he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism into America if President Roosevelt continued his progressive policies. Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there. Propagandists for fascist groups try to dismiss the fascist scare. We should be aware of the symptoms. When industrialists ignore laws designed for social and economic progress they will seek recourse to a fascist state when the institutions of our government compel them to comply with the provisions."

judge for yourself if it is based in reality or some conspiracy tin foil hat thing!!

or if u would like to kick back and listen to an audio version on bbc website-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hi...ocument_20070723.shtml

****this goes into who funded hitler.
http://www.reformation.org/wall-st-hitler.html

Read alot about this in old history books. Used to be found in my County Library. Thousand page books which have been removed from library shelves and replaced with two hundred page books which tell you very little.:frown:

Edited to keep you from getting a vacation for Mod Baiting.

Anandtech Senor Moderator
Red Dawn

 

[BoomerD]

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Coup.htm

http://www.thirdworldtraveler....ng_Enemy_excerpts.html

http://www.clubhousewreckards....seizethewhitehouse.htm

 

[Pabster]

It's fascism, not facism.

And the only "talk" of fascism here is from the usual group of left-wing nutjobs, who don't know the first thing about fascism...other than it sounds anti-Bush, so good enough.

 

[Worlocked]

Originally posted by: Pabster
It's fascism, not facism.

And the only "talk" of fascism here is from the usual group of left-wing nutjobs, who don't know the first thing about fascism...other than it sounds anti-Bush, so good enough.

The resident expert on fascism, ladies and gentleman. It's so easy to recognize the real deal when all you have to do is look in the mirror. :laugh:

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Worlocked
The resident expert on fascism, ladies and gentleman. It's so easy to recognize the real deal when all you have to do is look in the mirror. :laugh:

Is that you? :laugh:

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Pabster
It's fascism, not facism.

And the only "talk" of fascism here is from the usual group of left-wing nutjobs, who don't know the first thing about fascism...other than it sounds anti-Bush, so good enough.

And you have here of course Pabster's reliable ignorance, where he misrepresents those he disagrees with, and has nothing to offer himself.

I know I'm not the only one here who has put some effort into the definition of fascism - it's a somewhat fluid definition, but as I've read essays, book discussions, historical discussion, and its founder Mussolini's own writings on the definition, he is of course, in lieu of having anything useful to say much less any legitimate argument, simply resorting to ad hominem straw man to say his opponents are ignorant and only against Bush for no good reason - saying a lot more about him than those he writes about.

Pabster is what I'd call "fascist-friendly"; he's not a direct advocate, but his views are highly consistent with supporting the fascists who would come along.

To the sizable extent that the Bush administration has moved the nation in the direction towards fascism, Pabster generally cheers him on and defends the policies.

So, he can keep on posting - and hurting his own case.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: brxndxn
This is scary.. considering a LOT of those involved share the same last names as our lawmakers.

I don't doubt that there was some talk. Many were unhappy, the Great Depression had been lingering for quite a while, desperation reigned etc. Then the military had not received their bonuses etc.

Then they saw how Germany was growing and become more prosperous etc.

It was also a far different time in terms of comuinaction, in terms of understanding economic theory etc.

But absolutely nothing happened. If the rich & powerful coundn't make it happen back then, good luck doing it these days. Andas for the days, the facist model is way out of favor. I suppose if everybodies income was basically cut in half there would be a lot of agitating. I just don't think it would be for a facist model though.

The measure of the strenght of your governmenatl system is not that never has challenges, but rather that it has survived those that have ocurred.

So, not scary to me at all.

Fern

I imagine you won't be saying this if HRC gets elected.

 

[laFiera]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek
WTF does this have to do with Ron Paul?

Fern, I would argue that a great deal of families have had their incomes cut in half over the last 3 years due to the huge increase in energy costs. Do I think Fascism is coming to town tomorrow, no. But, I personally see some pretty powerful fascist influences in our system right now and have a gut feel that Bush Jr. isn't exactly opposed to the notion.

Huge increase in energy costs? I would argue is the devaluation of the dollar, and at the rate is going, soon, the mexican peso will be trading higher....

 

[laFiera]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Coup.htm

http://www.thirdworldtraveler....ng_Enemy_excerpts.html

http://www.clubhousewreckards....seizethewhitehouse.htm

thanks for the links...now i got something to do over my holidays!

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek
WTF does this have to do with Ron Paul?

Fern, I would argue that a great deal of families have had their incomes cut in half over the last 3 years due to the huge increase in energy costs. Do I think Fascism is coming to town tomorrow, no. But, I personally see some pretty powerful fascist influences in our system right now and have a gut feel that Bush Jr. isn't exactly opposed to the notion.

In half? What are these people working at McDonalds, driving a V12 and running their heat during the winter and air conditioning during the summer at 120%?

Our economy is clearly mixed. You have sprinkles of socialism, fascism, and capitalism.
None of these doom and gloom scenarios play out because quite frankly we as a nation lead the good life. Nobody wants to eff it up by delving into failed ideologies.

The only people who talk up these scenarios are those who typically fall into an extreme one of the ideologies mentioned above.

Socialists will cry the fascists are coming to power, fascists the socialists and pure capitalists about both.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: laFiera

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek
WTF does this have to do with Ron Paul?

Fern, I would argue that a great deal of families have had their incomes cut in half over the last 3 years due to the huge increase in energy costs. Do I think Fascism is coming to town tomorrow, no. But, I personally see some pretty powerful fascist influences in our system right now and have a gut feel that Bush Jr. isn't exactly opposed to the notion.

Huge increase in energy costs? I would argue is the devaluation of the dollar, and at the rate is going, soon, the mexican peso will be trading higher....

Are you kidding me? There are no "huge increases" in energy costs that have cut real income "in half". I would love people to prove that. As far as the dollar trading lower than the Peso, nice try at hyperbole.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: Pabster
It's fascism, not facism.

And the only "talk" of fascism here is from the usual group of left-wing nutjobs, who don't know the first thing about fascism...other than it sounds anti-Bush, so good enough.

Speak of the devil. Oh, did I type that out-loud? Aw, screw being polite, just stop posting pabster.

I think what Genx87 posted is interesting, but I don't exactly agree, simply because I sense quite a bit of bias against the socialization aspect of it. Not only because of the tone, but because I know where you're coming from, kind of.. I don't exactly see what the problem is with socializing certain parts of the system, the parts that should be RIGHTS that people deserve inherently. Health, security, living conditions, etc etc. It doesn't detract from your quality of life, one bit, and I don't see why you'd have a problem with allowing other people the chance at being competitive and relevant in an otherwise capitalized society. The way I see it, the nation is only as successful as it's poorest people, and the way the nation treats the poor is another good indicator of the value it puts on human life and balance, fairness and liberty.

That being said, nothing good comes of fascism, not a damn thing. Capitalism is an economic platform, so I don't see how it fits in exactly (but I understand your point), however good things do come from it - Most obviously, competition and the ability to get ahead if you work your ass off. Lastly, good things do come from socialized systems. As long as the socialized systems are not hindering the individual's ability to get ahead through hard work, sweat, and tears. Socialization allows people who are otherwise born into situations out of their control to rise above and become formidable competitive members of society, like they should.

Hell, the next Einstein could be a 4 year old living in a gutter right now. Without socialized health-care, housing, schooling, or other methods of support, he may not make it to his 12th birthday.

 

[Vic]

I find it to be intellectually dishonest to judge history with 20/20 hindsight. There is no debate among historians that, from a PURELY economic perspective, Mussolini and Hitler were both considered to be heroes of the people during the 1930s. That does not excuse what they did, of course, but it does explain how many were upset with FDR's failed policies which kept the US mired in the Depression longer than any other industrialized country.

Originally posted by: manowar821
Hell, the next Einstein could be a 4 year old living in a gutter right now. Without socialized health-care, housing, schooling, or other methods of support, he may not make it to his 12th birthday.

Wow... nice pointless emotional argument. Or the next Einstein could be a wealthy son with enough leisure and privilege to have the time and money to study and experiment topics not essential to survival or subsistence. Hmm... I wonder, which scenario does history and science tell us would be more likely?
Next time, don't use the emotional fear argument. That's the tactic of a bad used car salesman. If you want to argue that the 4 year old deserves these basic methods of support solely to respect the dignity of humanity, then I would agree wholeheartedly.

The problems with communists are (1) they refuse to recognize that there is almost no difference between them and fascists, and (2) they refuse to recognize the obvious unintended consequences of their ideology. For example, when we're all equal, who will buy fine art? Who shall some great new chef prepare his new culinary inventions for? Who will fund the scientific endevours of the next generation of great minds? Answer: corporations. Collectives of people who will come together for power and protection. Individuals will lack the necessary wherewithall and government will be so vast and powerful that it will be faceless, blind, and unaccountable.

 

[bamacre]

Or, worse, the next Einstein could be a Republican from Texas.

 

[Vic]

Well, I doubt that.

Socialism is not safety nets. Yet more intellectual dishonesty in this thread that I objected to was all. The very point of socialism is to hinder an individual's ability to get ahead. "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." If one has an excess of ability, then the product of that excess will be redistributed to those with greater need.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Or, worse, the next Einstein could be a Republican from Texas.

State of Texas GOP Platform, 2004