The Wii U is dead in its current form, admits Nintendo. But what now?

[Lil Frier]

Umm, I was just playing Mario Kart Wii this afternoon and aside from being in 3D, it feels almost exactly like the SNES version. Its fun as hell, but hardly innovative or original.


Maybe Nintendo needs to stop making consoles, stick to handhelds, and perhaps lease their exclusive characters to Sony and Microsoft one game at a time. I bet they come up with more and better things than Nintendo has over their last 4 consoles.

They don't need to stop making games, it's just that their hardware is iffy, and their networking is nonexistent. They actually had solid ideas with their consoles (motion, remote play), the execution (read: hardware) was rather terrible. They can put out a good game, but the home platforms really aren't anything to write home about.

If they were to just become a third-party developer, they'd probably make more money, as they'd stop wasting R&D on consoles (which they don't seem to have the best future in), while increasing the pool of consumers for their games. I know that I'd probably buy probably 20 games per generation from Nintendo, if they were on my Xbox.

Plus, imagine how much better Nintendo's worlds could get on better hardware...

 

[CZroe]

OK, so you named ON "skill-based" shooter, and 0 "immersive campaign" shooters, so I can't say that there is anything to use for comparison, especially since you mentioned Quake, while others are calling it and Unreal the start of "dudebro."

Can you count? I mentioned two skill-based shooters (QIIIA and UT) and one dudebro shooter with an immersive campaign (Modern Warfare).

I dunno...
Quake III Arena and Unreal Tournament were definitely NOT "dudebro" and their single-player campaigns were just multiplayer with bots.

Dudebro is dumbed-down for the masses and not about individual skill. Any shooter where you hide to recover health and mouse + keyboard is gimped to be more like a gamepad is dudebro in my book. Dudebro includes the likes of Halo, CoD, Resistance, etc. That said, I loved the Modern Warfare campaign because it was so cinematic and hated the online gameplay because it is so dumbed down. It's no wonder Hans Zimmer scored the sequel that I never played.

I gave my definition specifically because my definition contradicts with others, so using someone else's assertion that "UT was the start of dudebro" and trying to respond to all of our notions at once is futile.

 

[CZroe]

Putting a character in a game is NOT the same as innovating a new genre. Just because Mario Kart has Mario in it, it doesn't mean that it's an innovation from Super Mario Bros. It's just the same character in another genre that is getting its 8 release this year.

And, as I've said before, Snowboard Kids and Diddy Kong Racing were better than Mario Kart 64, which is why I never really bothered with Mario Kart after the Nintendo 64 (that, and I enjoyed my Xbox too much to play Nintendo's consoles more than on the rare occasion).

LOL! And putting Halo in an RTS is not the same as innovating a new genre. Get it? And, once again, you've made another poor choice to challenge because Mario Kart DID start the Kart Racing genre. How's that for innovation?!

There is far more keeping Mario fresh even within the platforming genre. Compare Super Mario Bros. to Super Mario Bros. 3. Compare Super Mario World to Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (you don't even play as Mario!). Compare Super Mario 64 to Super Paper Mario or Super Mario Galaxy. The platforming series is as transformed as it could possibly be and yet people still put their blinders on, ignore it, and claim that they haven't innovated. O just don't know how else to respond: open your eyes.

You say Halo hasn't stagnated because they added modes, improved graphics, and made an RTS spin-off all while conveniently ignoring how much more Nintendo's properties have transformed and improved and spun off into other genres. I'm sorry but I simply will not stand by and watch you move the goal posts with this comparison when even a cursory glance will show you that this is a point in Nintendo's favor and not against them.

 

[CZroe]

I'm about to turn 24, am a male, and LOVE Fire Emblem, in addition to liking Animal Crossing on the GameCube (and on the DS, to a lesser extent). Heck, my little brothers called Nintendogs a game for girls, then ended up playing it quite a bit for a while.

This idea that things are catering to girls is dumb. People probably think the same of Viva Pinata, but I thought that game was phenomenal.

*facepalm*

I love the games too.

No one said they were excluding males to be inclusive of and more attractive to females.

Wii Fit has male and female trainers the same as Pokemon, FFS. That's the point: they make it a point to be inclusive which IS "catering" to female gamers, though not necessarily "more" than males.

They clearly do this more than the competition. Saying that they don't pay attention to the market and blaming their failure on it is ignorant of reality. It's like saying that they are failing because they are doing exactly what you say they need to do to succeed.

I had Trace Memories in that post as another game Nintendo published hoping to cater to more females but I guess I lost that edit.

 

[CZroe]

That's kinda my point, though. Wasn't Pikmin their last successful IP? That was about 12.5 years ago now, the launch of the first one. Microsoft's at least bringing Project Spark, while also paying for Titanfall and Quantum Break as well. That's in addition to Ryse (even if it's a Roman God of War copycat of sorts), LocoCycle (even if it's terrible), and the upcoming games like D4, Below, and Sunset Overdrive.

Stuff comes out that's iterative, of course (the next Halo, Gears, Forza, Fable, etc.), but Microsoft Studios actually has a solid chunk of games in-development that are actually new franchises, so it's not like they're JUST throwing out Halo and waiting for Sledgehammer to carry them with the next CoD.

And heck, Sony's the same way.

Pikmin was their last successful IP?! Laughable! Brain Age, Nintendogs, Wii Sports, Wii Fit, etc have all spawned sequels and vastly outsold Pikmin. I spent 10 seconds on that list and am ignoring many others. Many of the ones I really wanted to do well haven't, like Elite Beat Agents and Battalion Wars, but that doesn't mean they didn't successfully introduce a lot of new, SUCCESSFUL, IP.

 

[CZroe]

Umm, I was just playing Mario Kart Wii this afternoon and aside from being in 3D, it feels almost exactly like the SNES version. Its fun as hell, but hardly innovative or original.

I am speechless. Dumfounded by how you could possibly think that. You are trolling, right?!
They aren't even remotely similar.

 

[CZroe]

...their networking is nonexistent.

You keep saying this as if they have no online multiplayer. Is that what you think? You are misinformed. It may not be as robust and well-integrated as Microsoft and Sony, but it undeniably exists.

 

[Lil Frier]

LOL! And putting Halo in an RTS is not the same as innovating a new genre. Get it? And, once again, you've made another poor choice to challenge because Mario Kart DID start the Kart Racing genre. How's that for innovation?!

There is far more keeping Mario fresh even within the platforming genre. Compare Super Mario Bros. to Super Mario Bros. 3. Compare Super Mario World to Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (you don't even play as Mario!). Compare Super Mario 64 to Super Paper Mario or Super Mario Galaxy. The platforming series is as transformed as it could possibly be and yet people still put their blinders on, ignore it, and claim that they haven't innovated. O just don't know how else to respond: open your eyes.

You say Halo hasn't stagnated because they added modes, improved graphics, and made an RTS spin-off all while conveniently ignoring how much more Nintendo's properties have transformed and improved and spun off into other genres. I'm sorry but I simply will not stand by and watch you move the goal posts with this comparison when even a cursory glance will show you that this is a point in Nintendo's favor and not against them.

I never said Halo innovated. I said it didn't stagnate. I didn't call Halo Wars innovation, just giving the franchise something different. Thing is, your Mario defense is basically comparing games from 10-20 years ago, while I'm speaking of their actions in the present, so I can't even comment on it. What Nintendo did in the '80s and '90s isn't relevant to my point, meaning that of the games you mentioned, only Galaxy and Super Paper Mario (which isn't even a new series) apply.

I don't even know what you're talking about though, to be honest. I'm not even attempting to compare Halo and Mario. I'm comparing Nintendo as a whole to the FPS genre as a whole, while simply using Halo as one example of how a SINGLE series has managed to provide something different every time. An apt comparison isn't every freaking Mario to Halo, but rather Halo to the Super Smash Bros. series or the Mario Kart series. I'm moving a total of 0 goalposts, you're just trying to take all of my discussions and treat them as a single one.

On the whole, Nintendo's not releasing successful IPs right now. The stuff that folks are clamoring for is new forms of Donkey Kong and Mario Kart. Meanwhile, Microsoft's at least offering new IPs in the forms of Quantum Break, D4 and Titanfall, even if they're essentially buying the works of others for their platform to make it happen.

What this really boils down to is that I was saying that folks are calling FPS games iterative, but Nintendo's stuff really is the same way. I'm not saying Nintendo's individual franchises are stagnating, but Nintendo as a whole is. I'm sure the new Mario Kart is going to be fun for many, but I don't see why THAT is an acceptable iteration, while the next Call of Duty isn't.

 

[Lil Frier]

You keep saying this as if they have no online multiplayer. Is that what you think? You are misinformed. It may not be as robust and well-integrated as Microsoft and Sony, but it undeniably exists.

Do you know WHY I say that? Because I've tried for a long while now to get someone with first-hand experience with Nintendo's stuff to inform me of how their online play is, and no one ever gives me any information. I've tried to find it, but no one's exactly answering my questions on it. When I say it's nonexistent, no Nintendo console user corrects me. So, while I might be wrong, it's not for lack of trying to find counterarguments, it's that no one will give a straight answer on the matter.

 

[Lil Frier]

Pikmin was their last successful IP?! Laughable! Brain Age, Nintendogs, Wii Sports, Wii Fit, etc have all spawned sequels and vastly outsold Pikmin. I spent 10 seconds on that list and am ignoring many others. Many of the ones I really wanted to do well haven't, like Elite Beat Agents and Battalion Wars, but that doesn't mean they didn't successfully introduce a lot of new, SUCCESSFUL, IP.

The first two are handheld IPs, which I'm not really addressing because Nintendo's doing handhelds just fine. Wii Sports and Wii Fit, I didn't realize did as well as they did. Well, I didn't realize Resort did well, but I ignored the "success" of the first because it was given away for free, thus not generating much revenue (if any) for the company. That, and I HATED Wii Sports.

They've introduced some IPs, but my idea of success here is a monetary one. I suppose it IS rather silly of me to take that stance, since I'm the last one to like something based on its popularity, but for the sake of Nintendo's future, seeing something like Wonderful 101 become a long-lasting IP would be a nice thing, and the fact that so many attempts at IP have fallen flat keeps them from my idea of a "successful" IP, in this case.

That's the thing, they aren't exactly releasing low-quality IPs, but they're just not selling. I'm not sure if people just ignore non-Mario stuff from Nintendo or what. As I've said before, they do software well, and even the hardware CONCEPTS are good, it's just the execution of that hardware that is killing them. If they were willing to take short-term losses on hardware, it'd probably do them a lot of long-term good, particularly from the third-party point of view.

 

[Ichinisan]

Do you know WHY I say that? Because I've tried for a long while now to get someone with first-hand experience with Nintendo's stuff to inform me of how their online play is, and no one ever gives me any information. I've tried to find it, but no one's exactly answering my questions on it. When I say it's nonexistent, no Nintendo console user corrects me. So, while I might be wrong, it's not for lack of trying to find counterarguments, it's that no one will give a straight answer on the matter.

GameCube, Wii, and DS had online multiplayer. For the GameCube, there was no unified system at all...so the game developer would have to implement everything (as Sega did with Phantasy Star Online). In that regard, GameCube network support was like PS2 network support. The First DS and DS Lite didn't support WPA security for WiFi...and the firmware was not updateable. The Wii and DS were both hampered by the "friend code" system...requiring you to exchange codes with people outside of Nintendo's system before you could connect with them (meant to ensure that Nintendo would never be blamed for connecting a child with a predator). It was a good idea, but poorly-implemented. Even though you could exchange friend codes for the Wii system menu, the friend associations didn't carry-over between game titles. For each game, you had to exchange friend codes again. Nintendo just kept the software too isolated and modularized (presumably for security). Even the home menu in games wasn't part of the system. It was statically compiled into each game. Some home screens supported Wii accessories that others did not (depends on which version of the devkit was used to compile that game). Lots of games support online play, but it's not quite as social since you can't communicate with strangers in Mario Kart Wii.

On Wii U, there's a much greater emphasis on Internet play and social features. I assume Nintendo has done something else with friend codes. I'll have to ask my brother since he just got a Wii U. My Nephew plays Monster Hunter on his.

 

[Aikouka]

Nintendo uses Nintendo Network IDs now for the Wii U and for the 3DS (3DS was added later via an update). You now tie any downloads to your network ID versus the console. As for playing with people, I'm really not sure. I don't have any friends with a Wii U, and the only time I've played with someone via 3DS was when we were on the same WiFi network (actually was my phone's hotspot ). I think Nintendo is trying to get there, but I definitely wouldn't put "robust online environment" into their pro column.

 

[purbeast0]

if i ever get a wii-u it definitely won't be to be playing games online. it will be solely to play first party nintendo games for the most part. when it hits like $150 or $200 with a game i want to play i'll probably snag one. i definitely would like to play a couple games out for it right now but i'm not dying to play them (donkey kong country, the mario games). i'm going to retire my wii this weekend and put my 360 in it's place since i've been using hbo go a lot recently. i literally havent used my wii since i moved into this house in september 2012, but i've had it hooked up since i have my theater finished.

 

[Lil Frier]

if i ever get a wii-u it definitely won't be to be playing games online. it will be solely to play first party nintendo games for the most part. when it hits like $150 or $200 with a game i want to play i'll probably snag one. i definitely would like to play a couple games out for it right now but i'm not dying to play them (donkey kong country, the mario games). i'm going to retire my wii this weekend and put my 360 in it's place since i've been using hbo go a lot recently. i literally havent used my wii since i moved into this house in september 2012, but i've had it hooked up since i have my theater finished.

See, I think that's how everyone is with Nintendo, but what would actually sell me on the Wii U, in addition to Nintendo's games, would be the chance to ply those Nintendo games online with family. I like Nintendo's games more for multiplayer, and the folks I'd be doing the multiplayer with don't live with me.

 

[purbeast0]

See, I think that's how everyone is with Nintendo, but what would actually sell me on the Wii U, in addition to Nintendo's games, would be the chance to ply those Nintendo games online with family. I like Nintendo's games more for multiplayer, and the folks I'd be doing the multiplayer with don't live with me.

i really don't have any interest in playing mario or dkc with anyone else. hell, i don't even know anyone who owns a wii-u anyways lol.

 

[poofyhairguy]

That's kinda my point, though. Wasn't Pikmin their last successful IP? That was about 12.5 years ago now, the launch of the first one. Microsoft's at least bringing Project Spark, while also paying for Titanfall and Quantum Break as well. That's in addition to Ryse (even if it's a Roman God of War copycat of sorts), LocoCycle (even if it's terrible), and the upcoming games like D4, Below, and Sunset Overdrive.

Project Spark is just an advanced level designer- TimeSplitters had a much more basic version of that in 2000. Titanfall is just the next generation of dude bro. Quantum Break might be really innovative I haven't seen it. Ryse is a copy you admit of a game series that itself copied Prince of Persia, and we haven't seen anything else.

I do think MS has innovated in the 360 era, but it wasn't any of those titles you listed. It was the Kinect and the amazing Viva Pinata. Or Ninety-Nine Nights, its innovation blew me away when I first saw it. Or just the fact that XBL was the first really well done online multiplayer experience for a console. Or how newer dashboards have motion controls for menus and Kinect avatars.

What does Sony have? To me since they have treated motion like a secondhand citizen there has been little new ideas on their ecosystem from their first-party teams. They put out Little Big Planet, which was fairly innovative but what else is there?

Uncharted is modern Tomb Raider. White Knight Chronicles is computer western rpg dumbed down. Killzone is dude bro, SOCOM is dude bro. Ratchet & Clank is modern-day Banjo-Kazooie.

Who cares if it is new IP if it is same old game? I would rather Nintendo's route- same old Mario shoved into completely new game categories - rather than a ton of GOW or Tomb Raider copies.

Where is Sony's innovation? They stuck the most x86 computer in a case for the cheapest price? Companies like Dell innovated in the same way back in the 1990s!

Seems to me Sony gets too much of a pass just BECAUSE of console power. MS has actually really innovated in this field last generation and their willingness to force the Kinect2 down the throats of dude bro early adopters insures they have room for innovation in this next generation.

 

[poofyhairguy]

What this really boils down to is that I was saying that folks are calling FPS games iterative, but Nintendo's stuff really is the same way. I'm not saying Nintendo's individual franchises are stagnating, but Nintendo as a whole is. I'm sure the new Mario Kart is going to be fun for many, but I don't see why THAT is an acceptable iteration, while the next Call of Duty isn't.

I don't really think it is acceptable. Nintendo showed really innovative games last generation with Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit, Wii Music, Mario Galaxy, etc. This generation they have not innovated, in fact apparently the new Mario Kart will use the controller poorly, and they are suffering as a result.

If Nintendo would truly innovate then the Wii U becomes worth the asking price. As it is with derivative and remade titles it is closer to Gamecube territory, which I loved but didn't pounce on till it hit the sub $150 mark.

But the issue is that Nintendo has not delivered the innovation like the did with the Wii, DS and arguably 3DS- not that their home console can't deliver the dude bro market. That was never meant to be...

 

[Aikouka]

Where is Sony's innovation? They stuck the most x86 computer in a case for the cheapest price? Companies like Dell innovated in the same way back in the 1990s!

Why do people care if it's x86 or RISC? ...or are you telling me that if they would have used a PowerPC-based processor instead of the Jaguar-based processor that it would be far more innovative? Is that just because everyone else in the PC industry gave up on RISC? Apple was the last company that included PowerPC in their machines until they switched years ago.

In regard to the GPU, since the release of the XBOX, all game consoles have used PC graphics manufacturers to make their console's GPUs. PS3's RSX was made by NVIDIA; 360s Xenos was made by ATi; Wii's GPU was made by ATi; Wii U, PS4 and X1 were all made by AMD (ATi).

 

[Lil Frier]

i really don't have any interest in playing mario or dkc with anyone else. hell, i don't even know anyone who owns a wii-u anyways lol.

The only enjoyment I had with the Wii was playing New Super Mario Bros. and Mario Party 8 at my sister's. I like those games in a social setting more than by myself. Mario Party and Mario Kart have 0 appeal to me from a solo standpoint. That, and I LOVED the time I spent playing PokeMMO (ended up quitting because the updates were too slow), and something like that on the Wii U would be amazing.

 

[purbeast0]

mario kart has 0 appeal to me from any standpoint heh that franchise is pure garbage now.

 

[HeXen]

Innovation is not a requirement to have games that are fun to play. Gameplay that is stagnant is really just an individual opinion. Many people like to keep the same gameplay elements while having an up to date game that utilizes what is known to work well before. If it works and is not broken then why keep changing it for the sake of change? I really don't want to see Mario Kart turn into Ridge Racer but no one is forced to buy every Mario Kart if you're tired of Kart racing, rather a sequel is sometimes just a way to make for new environments and graphics. Same with other games like COD, it's just more of what you love ...if you still enjoy it that is. change too much and everyone may hate it worse.

Why do people care if it's x86 or RISC? ...or are you telling me that if they would have used a PowerPC-based processor instead of the Jaguar-based processor that it would be far more innovative? Is that just because everyone else in the PC industry gave up on RISC? Apple was the last company that included PowerPC in their machines until they switched years ago.

In regard to the GPU, since the release of the XBOX, all game consoles have used PC graphics manufacturers to make their console's GPUs. PS3's RSX was made by NVIDIA; 360s Xenos was made by ATi; Wii's GPU was made by ATi; Wii U, PS4 and X1 were all made by AMD (ATi).

Just to point out, PowerVR (dreamcast,saturn) used to make PC GPU's to compete as well.

 

[exdeath]

I can't stop watching the ending of Xenoblade Chronicles that starts after the last boss fight over and over and over again and it just makes the wait for X all that more unbearable.

 

[exdeath]

Why do people care if it's x86 or RISC? ...or are you telling me that if they would have used a PowerPC-based processor instead of the Jaguar-based processor that it would be far more innovative? Is that just because everyone else in the PC industry gave up on RISC? Apple was the last company that included PowerPC in their machines until they switched years ago.

Sounds like the same type of person who complains about solid axles and pushrods in Garage. It doesn't matter if it's the best, most powerful, lightest, cheapest, easiest to use/program/build/maintain and generally THE MOST effective solution, if it's not perceived as complex and exotic and buried in exciting acronyms.

Same type of person who scoffs at "plastic" but who will proudly buy it if it's called "super advanced molecular space age elastopolymer composites".

 

[poofyhairguy]

Why do people care if it's x86 or RISC? ...or are you telling me that if they would have used a PowerPC-based processor instead of the Jaguar-based processor that it would be far more innovative?

No. It is just that when I ask my gaming friends why to buy a PS4 they say "its the most powerful console." Why does that matter? I don't care about power I care about games. Now that it is easy to compare power doesn't make that the most important aspect.

The kinect2 on the Xbone is more appealing to me than more power under the hood personally.

 

[Lil Frier]

The kinect2 on the Xbone is more appealing to me than more power under the hood personally.

Ehh, the Kinect has fallen flat with me. You still need too much room to actually play games. I've got Kinect Sports Rivals, and every time I try to play it, this is the sequence:

1. Start the story mode event.
2. Restart the story mode event in frustration because the game won't track correctly in my room.
3. Attempt the event one or two more times, cursing at the game for not picking up things consistently.
4. "Xbox, go to Titanfall, f**k."

The game is actually really cool to play, it's just they made it for a decently-sized living room. I can't play it in my bedroom, but I really want to. On top of that, I find myself having to yell at my Xbox 3-5 times to get it to turn on (though I've mostly given that up in favor of using my controller). I'd give the Kinect a 5/10 for having a lot of potential, but needing a LOT of polish. If they get its voice recognition improved and more consistent, it's a good accessory, but there is absolutely nothing about it that says "you need this with your Xbox One."