The unofficial Dota 2 thread + complete instructions for new players! [FREE INVITES]

[TheVrolok]

Haven't really been watching this thread, but just wanted to throw my 2 cents in on the first item RoH.. No. Just don't do it. No.

 

[z1ggy]

It is strange you're good on Sniper. He has one of the best last hits (probably the best ranged), but he has no real escape mechanic and requires a good bit of build up to be a dominating carry.

If you're really interested, at low level pubs, Riki is really good. At 6, you get perma invis (which pubs are awful at countering) and once you get Diffusal Blade, you pretty much dominate. The good thing about him, is you don't need a ton of farm early game, just levels. So, even if you are getting outlaned, as long as you can stay in XP range, you should be able to recover.

I think the reason I did well was because I was with a good carry who had stun, and I had some decent items. I was basically just sniping people who I saw had low health, and I think I had some items that let me increae my attack speed as well. I just basically made sure I stayed out of their attack ranges.

And yes I noticed this. Often times in pubs people who are good with Riki are generally very dominating. I still have trouble using characters that have invis. because it's sort of an advanced tactic.

I kind of like Nyx's invis because when he attacks he does a ton of damage.. So I'd do that, then stun them, etc.

What is the XP range btw?

 

[Zeze]

What is the XP range btw?

1200. Just double the distance of a typical range hero (600).

 

[Chiropteran]

Where are you getting your tango? You spent your money on your RoH.

If you are someone who uses an un-upgraded courier to bring you just a set of tangos, then ZeZe might be right about you.

Usually from my support, in the first minutes of the game. Later from the courier if needed.

You have brain damage. I gave you the actual REAL math. How the hell is this made-up fake math?

You said, and I quote, "It's 40-60% difference in stats (HP, dmg, armor)".

What hero gains 40% more hp and stats from a wraith band and a couple branches? Exactly zero of them. Either your math is wrong, or you are outright lying.

What about the double the stats I have?

You just can't help yourself, can you? Gotta keep on lying to make your point? Please show me ANY situation in which your starting gold is enough to double the stats of a hero. The only way that is happening is if you take morphling and morph away almost all of his str, you can "double" the remaining strength with starting items.

Otherwise you have utterly failed at the math, AGAIN.

Only fools and total trash tier like you get RoH on Axe. Axe now gets Tranquil which gives him infinite heal + fast ms + decent armor.

You keep on suggesting the impossible. First you say I should try RoH first in a captain's mode game, with my 600 starting gold, now you claim Axe can begin the game with tranquil boots. I know you are having trouble with math, but even in all-random you can't start with tranquil boots, sorry.

Why not just say "Start with a bkb, boots of travel, and heart"? If you going to suggest items you can't actually buy, at least go big!

Finally. It's obvious you know it yourself that you're wrong or starting to get the feel that you're bad. This is probably the best validation you will give to us here in a typical internet fashion. I'm glad we taught you something.

I'm not really sure what your problem is. I never even claimed RoH was the best item ever or anything along those lines. This entire discussion has revolved around you make false ridiculous LIES while I dispute them. I'll happily admit that the item might still be a poor choice, but *not* for the reasons you are giving. Just because you might have the correct final answer doesn't mean the work you are showing is accurate.

 

[Zeze]

Here it is for the 8th time.

I just realized you didn't even read my math post because of your blind pride.

It's obvious you didn't even read the entirely accurate math I wrote out. I'm wasting my time.

I'll repeat for the third time, you didn't read. You are absolute garbage and hopelessly thick headed.

5. I came out with 36 more damage on top (132 - 96) AND your naked SF already have 303 HP left out of 435. I have 434 HP left out of 530 HP. Just at level 1 and 3 hits, I have 134 more HP than you out of your 303.

That's your 303 HP SF vs my 434 HP SF at level 1. That's a half a hero more than yours.

How can you be this bad?

7. You realize it's not just having +96 hp. I deal more damage than you, take less damage than you, heal faster than you, have more max HP than you. You are outmatched in 5 different ways from top to bottom, left and right... with SAME GOLD

 

[Zeze]

Why don't I propose this?

You and I play 1v1. BUT there will be zero skill involved, why?- You and I will trade EXACT last hits and denies, and EXACT harassment. It's not even a 1v1, but a true test. Now you can't be scared anymore.

You bring your RoH and I buy items with same gold. See how it plays out. You will be utterly, mechanically, zoned out and utterly screwed. You know how bad you are? You don't even know there's 1v1 mode exists in Dota 2. It gives you free courier, and only mid lane is enabled. You show up with RoH and I'll do nothing (stay outside of EXP) until you buy it and come to the lane.

There's zero reason to say no to this, otherwise it confirms: 1) you're trolling or 2) you know deep inside you're wrong and don't want to be proven wrong in your face.

My steamID is acf3passion.


Until then, please, please, shut your awful mouth.

Care to respond to these two below:

Uh the majority IS the RoH noobs like you. The bottom 60-70% of low level skills think RoH naked is ever good. You are the majority noob. The people posted here are the minority. What a fool.

Just look at the god damn facts. No one agrees with you here or reddit or even bad pub forums like playdota.com. Millions of noobs did this and got crushed in Dota 1 before you and past you.

From now on, everytime you spew further garbage, I'll just repost this very post to you.

 

[CWRMadcat]

See, this is a more reasonable explanation, but you are still exaggerating the difference.

Where do you get 11-12 damage? Wraith band, if you are an agi hero, is +6 damage. If you somehow had 5 branches + wraith band, that is 11 damage, but then you have no slots for tango or salve. If you are bringing tango AND salve, which all of these hypothetical scenarios include, you can only carry 3 branches and at best you are looking at +9 damage.

I feel like you are really exaggerating the effect of a little extra damage. Okay, so you take your optimal build, and instead of doing 45 damage per autoattack you are doing 54. It's easier to last hit and deny, I get that. But I do not see it translating into you winning the lane for free every time.

Level 1 drow aura gives every ranged ally a free 5 or so damage, does having a drow on your team guarantee that every lane with a ranged wins their lane? Not at all, I hardly even notice the difference when I have a drow on my team. 9 damage might be more than 5, but it's still not that huge.

I'm fully aware of how a solo lane deny and last hitting work together, I got destroyed one game by someone who denied nearly every last hit I was trying to make, while taking all of his. But guess what? I had a wrath band + branches start. In my experience the hero with the faster attack animation and superior lane presence can always win the last hit/deny war, a small difference in damage is almost never enough to matter.

In the scheme of things, it rarely makes a difference as well. I'm doing 46 damage, you are doing 54. Minion at 1 hp, we both kill it in one hit, 2 hp same, 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 etc all the way up to 46 and we are still both killing it in one hit. Then looking at the minions at 55 hp 56 hp 57 hp etc all the way up to 92 hp and neither of us can kill it in one hit, but it will die after two combined hits from either of us. Now, the damage bonus does make a difference with the minions that have more than 46 hp but less than 55 hp, but nobody will ever convince me that every single minion is going to sit at those exact hp levels long enough to be last hit or denied.

The extra damage is a bonus, it helps, but I don't see it making or breaking the game. If it did, then drow would be a crucial 1st pick or ban every single professional game, because that extra 5-6 damage for every ranged ally would guarantee your entire team wins their lanes. No, a little damage doesn't guarantee that you win the game, other stats, included hp regeneration, do actually matter.


As far as tranquil boots, I like them but you can't start lane with them no matter what you do, and they aren't late game viable like linkin's is so I'd eventually be selling back the parts in most games. The extra 22 gold for a RoH is gained before the first minion waves even meet, so you can easily have it in lane from the very start of the game.

It's not a matter of making or breaking the game. The point is to spend your initial gold in a manner that will give you the best chance of success. Obviously the item choice alone isn't going to guarantee a dominant laning phase.

And no, its +11-12 damage. Remember that bracer/band/talisman, in addition to giving you +6 of the primary attribute type, will give you an additional +3 damage. So one bracer + 2-3 branches will give you +11-12 damage (Str hero), since primary attribute gives you an additional +1 damage.

Tranquils are also very viable. As phantom lancer, you can just hang onto those tranquils and change them into travels once you're done farming. I can only think of two heroes that could actually use linkens well (medusa, weaver). Other heroes can use it, but it's so expensive other items will take priority.

 

[Aikouka]

I like melee characters that have good abilities at closing the gap. In that case, who would be my best option? :awe:

 

[Chiropteran]

It's not a matter of making or breaking the game. The point is to spend your initial gold in a manner that will give you the best chance of success. Obviously the item choice alone isn't going to guarantee a dominant laning phase.

And no, its +11-12 damage. Remember that bracer/band/talisman, in addition to giving you +6 of the primary attribute type, will give you an additional +3 damage. So one bracer + 2-3 branches will give you +11-12 damage (Str hero), since primary attribute gives you an additional +1 damage.

Good point, I forgot about the flat +3 damage on those items, I think that is something new that they never had in original Dota.

That's your 303 HP SF vs my 434 HP SF at level 1. That's a half a hero more than yours.

SF doesn't start at 303 hp, even with a RoH.

So you argument is that with the extra hp and stats from items, AND after hitting my hero 4 times, you have 40-60% more hp? Because you don't actually have 40-60% more hp or stats or damage or anything at the start of the game.

Is that laughable or what? Might as well say you have 10000% more hp, because if you can hit me just enough times to get my hp down to 2 it's true!

What about the double the stats I have?

What about them? Please weasel your way out of this one. Even if you count my heroes hp *after* some hypothetical harass hits you may or may not be able to do in a real game, nothing is going to reduce my base stats and no build is going to give you double the stats.

 

[Chiropteran]

I like melee characters that have good abilities at closing the gap. In that case, who would be my best option? :awe:

Me too. I like spirit breaker, phantom assassin, and chaos knight for that reason.

Spirit breaker IMO is strongest, at least at the lower elo levels. Not just in raw ganking ability, but simply by existing on in a given game spirit breaker severely limits the ability of the enemy team to farm, because he is so good at catching and ganking players who wander out alone.

 

[Zeze]

Good point, I forgot about the flat +3 damage on those items, I think that is something new that they never had in original Dota.







SF doesn't start at 303 hp, even with a RoH.

So you argument is that with the extra hp and stats from items, AND after hitting my hero 4 times, you have 40-60% more hp? Because you don't actually have 40-60% more hp or stats or damage or anything at the start of the game.

Is that laughable or what? Might as well say you have 10000% more hp, because if you can hit me just enough times to get my hp down to 2 it's true!



What about them? Please weasel your way out of this one. Even if you count my heroes hp *after* some hypothetical harass hits you may or may not be able to do in a real game, nothing is going to reduce my base stats and no build is going to give you double the stats.

Stop talking, time to man up. Noob troll.

 

[smackababy]

I like melee characters that have good abilities at closing the gap. In that case, who would be my best option? :awe:

Realistically, you can get blink dagger on most melee carries and be okay. So, pick a good one and go with it. Sven is probably the easier, because you can semi carry / support with little problems. And if you get treads > blink, you won't have a problem. Same with Tiny, but he requires a bit more skill due to his 'combo'.

 

[Chiropteran]

Stop talking, time to man up. Noob troll.

I beat dozens of people every day with a ring of health. But those games don't count because my opponents are "terrible bad noobs".

Hypothetically, lets say you beat me. You beat, using your own words, a "terrible bad noob". Does that prove my item choices are bad? Not really. Even the noobs I play against in my elo level can follow a build plan. It doesn't take skill to build the correct items, but they still lose despite that.

I don't even understand what you were talking about:

You and I will trade EXACT last hits and denies, and EXACT harassment. It's not even a 1v1, but a true test.
...You will be utterly, mechanically, zoned out and utterly screwed.

If you "zone me out" I'm not going to be able to last hit or deny. How exactly are you going to test with exact matched last hits and deny and harassment if I am zoned? What you are saying doesn't even make sense.

 

[Zeze]

If you "zone me out" I'm not going to be able to last hit or deny. How exactly are you going to test with exact matched last hits and deny and harassment if I am zoned? What you are saying doesn't even make sense.

That's the WHOLE point. Holy god, how can you be this dense? You get zoned out, then you find yourself unable to last hit/deny/gain exp. THAT'S THE TEST.

Then your thick skull will realize that in real games, you find yourself worthless with RoH while enemy runs away with farm, exp, gold = more items, ganking, pushing... while you wait for your dumbass courier for 1 tango (if you managed to get 2 last hits). Or if you're smart at all, you'd know you need SALVE for burst heal, not struggle from red to orange HP with tango + RoH, wasting precious seconds. I already have 1 tango, 1 salve and all items AND whatever courier can bring me too.

If you're so eager to prove me wrong, why don't take me up on the test? I just realized you won't and never will. Because you know you will be proven wrong and get CRUSHED.

Just shut up. or... Man up.

 

[ImpulsE69]

LMAO. So...I downloaded this to take for a spin and reading just the last few pages is perfect examples what is wrong with these type of games and why the communities sucks so bad. ONLY ONE WAY TO DO THINGS OR YOU ARE NOOB! ;p God forbid something works for one person but doesn't work for another

When one of you wins a tourney, then we can talk who's right or wrong, until then, just play and quit arguing. What works for "pros" doesn't always (rarely) works for non-pros.

 

[Zeze]

LMAO. So...I downloaded this to take for a spin and reading just the last few pages is perfect examples what is wrong with these type of games and why the communities sucks so bad. ONLY ONE WAY TO DO THINGS OR YOU ARE NOOB! ;p God forbid something works for one person but doesn't work for another

When one of you wins a tourney, then we can talk who's right or wrong, until then, just play and quit arguing. What works for "pros" doesn't always (rarely) works for non-pros.

I have zero problem with anything working in pubs.

He just fails to realize that what he's doing doesn't work at all in higher level pubs (not even pro games, far, FAR from it.) I've repeated time and time again, being new and bad is fine (otherwise I'm an asshole).

He's ignorant and actually arguing that better builds are superior to the proven garbage RoH opening. And he doesn't listen. It's like a little kid learning to ski and doing pizza stance to break. And he's arguing that pizza breaking is superior to actual side braking. He fails to see the objective truth.

That's the problem- ignorance. But I know he knows he's wrong. He's just saving face.

 

[CWRMadcat]

LMAO. So...I downloaded this to take for a spin and reading just the last few pages is perfect examples what is wrong with these type of games and why the communities sucks so bad. ONLY ONE WAY TO DO THINGS OR YOU ARE NOOB! ;p God forbid something works for one person but doesn't work for another

When one of you wins a tourney, then we can talk who's right or wrong, until then, just play and quit arguing. What works for "pros" doesn't always (rarely) works for non-pros.

Look, when you play by yourself, do whatever you want. When you roll up into a lane with garbage items, you're wasting 4 other people's time.

The topic being discussed has no gray area, you don't sit around and build a naked RoH under any circumstances. It's dumb.

 

[smackababy]

LMAO. So...I downloaded this to take for a spin and reading just the last few pages is perfect examples what is wrong with these type of games and why the communities sucks so bad. ONLY ONE WAY TO DO THINGS OR YOU ARE NOOB! ;p God forbid something works for one person but doesn't work for another

When one of you wins a tourney, then we can talk who's right or wrong, until then, just play and quit arguing. What works for "pros" doesn't always (rarely) works for non-pros.

His original "argument" was Linkin's Sphere is better than BKB. I don't care what bracket you are in, this is wrong. BKB is a core item on pretty much EVERY CARRY. The only exception is when you're completely dominating, to the point the other team can't kill you anyway. And even then, BKB will probably still be picked up because you can afford it.

You can build any item you want. Go Dagon on every hero. That does not mean it is good or that it will work against anything other mongoloid Brazilians.

EDIT: And if you think this is bad, you need to play a few more games. I have asked someone not to auto attack the creeps in lane (because it hurts both of us) and he responded with: "f*ck you, don't tell me what to do." I literally asked him "Hey, please don't auto attack the creeps, we are losing lane control and farm" and that is what I get.

 

[CWRMadcat]

His original "argument" was Linkin's Sphere is better than BKB. I don't care what bracket you are in, this is wrong. BKB is a core item on pretty much EVERY CARRY. The only exception is when you're completely dominating, to the point the other team can't kill you anyway. And even then, BKB will probably still be picked up because you can afford it.

You can build any item you want. Go Dagon on every hero. That does not mean it is good or that it will work against anything other mongoloid Brazilians.

EDIT: And if you think this is bad, you need to play a few more games. I have asked someone not to auto attack the creeps in lane (because it hurts both of us) and he responded with: "f*ck you, don't tell me what to do." I literally asked him "Hey, please don't auto attack the creeps, we are losing lane control and farm" and that is what I get.

Hue hue hue...

 

[Zeze]

Again, if you're bad and doing bad things in pubs and kill equally bad players with it, that's completely fine.

Don't just argue in here thinking that bad 'strategy' is good.

 

[Chiropteran]

Again, if you're bad and doing bad things in pubs and kill equally bad players with it, that's completely fine.

Don't just argue in here thinking that bad 'strategy' is good.

Game start, I buy some initial items, which normally need to include regen/sustain items. Obviously this depends on hero, lane, and role.

Anyway, it's fairly often some combination of circlet, gauntlets of strength (if I am planning on making an urn or drums later), slippers of agi, ring of protection, ring of regeneration, a basic courier, tango, salve, clarity potion, and/or stout shield.

However, in an all random game or a game in which I choose to random, I'll also consider a Ring of Health is a viable start. Since I prefer to play all random, this occurs a lot more often than not. Now maybe this right here is where I'll get called a noob, maybe RoH first item is considered bad and terrible, but it works for me. Against a balanced lane, it gives me a huge edge because I can harrass and trade blows but I will regenerate through the damage much faster than my lane enemy, and eventually I can push them out or kill them.


That was my original comment about RoH that set zeze off so much. Where did I say it was good? I even expressed doubt towards myself, in that I said "maybe RoH first item is considered bad and terrible, but it works for me".

At no point did I walk into this thread and proclaim RoH first is the absolute best play in every game, and no point did I call anyone else bad or a noob for not buying one.

I was never defending RoH as the best possible item choice because even I never was sure it was. I simply expressed my view that it works for me and i'll often build it in an all random game. After that, the thread has degenerated because zeze's idiotic comments about how a +9 stat bonus from a bracer and couple branchs somehow translates to doubling all his stats.

If you're so eager to prove me wrong, why don't take me up on the test? I just realized you won't and never will. Because you know you will be proven wrong and get CRUSHED.

Alright, here is the deal. We play an all-random. You play your champion with a RoH, I'll play mine with the absolute best items according to what you tell me to buy. At the end of the game we see which strategy is more effective.

 

[Zeze]

What?

Stop cherry picking. First of all, you start with the argument that BKB is 'bad value' and Linken is superior. And you cited how it works in your bad games. Then we cited that it works in your bad games because Linkens is godly against uncoordinated bad games.

Then you went on further about RoH which is a component of Linkins. And how you get this as the first big item. These two things reveal how embarrassingly bad you are.

Being bad is fine, but you don't listen and argue against better players who know better. I've laid out the completely accurate 1v1 situation with you and you are too blind to read up on it.

The fact that you refer heroes as champions and propose an all-random to settle the RoH vs real items 'argument' show how utterly terrible and ignorant you are.

ALL RANDOM? Do you know how heroes work? There are inherent counters in Dota. I can get Windrunner and have ZERO items and I will outlane your garbage Riki with RoH.

Wow, just wow. I proposed the perfect 1v1 handicap scenario for your garbage RoH, and you dodge. Because you already know how bad it is.

 

[KaOTiK]

I just want Lina to talk dirty to me while I play, is that too much to ask?!

 

[smackababy]

I'm sure someone will make a community mod for it, sell it for $9.99, and make a million dollars in the first week.


And that is something that really irks me as well. Why is everything so expensive in Dota? Yeah, I get that it is F2P, but $15 for a courier? The stuff is extremely overpriced.

 

[Chiropteran]

ALL RANDOM? Do you know how heroes work? There are inherent counters in Dota. I can get Windrunner and have ZERO items and I will outlane your garbage Riki with RoH.

Ok, we will do it your way in a 1v1 game, and you will buy the roh and I'll buy the items you tell me to buy.