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[CWRMadcat]

How do you know it's so bad or "not optimal" if you have never seen it actually used in a game, not even once? It sounds like you are just repeating dogma, rather than speaking from any real experience.

Yeah I'm done. At the end of the day I'm never going to get placed with you in MM so it's irrelevant. Do as you will.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

It's like a little kid learning to ski and doing pizza stance to break. And he's arguing that pizza breaking is superior to actual side braking. He fails to see the objective truth.

That's actually a really really good analogy for what's going on here. RoH is so good at low levels because those pubs rarely put enough pressure on you to expose it's weakness. Even your trading hits test won't really show him what's wrong with RoH. How will you decide how many exchanged hits is a fair test? If you barely trade any, then the RoH will look amazing. I would use Shadowfiend if you do this test though--he would probably show it's weakness greater than anything. Then after RoH gets trashed in just straight up hit trading, consider how bad it is once you throw in Shadowfiend's nukes. Now, put a RoH on a side lane against against Drow and Shadowdemon and it's like doing Pizza down a double black diamond.

 

[Chiropteran]

If you survive a gank attempt and are left with say 100HP, you are out of the lane. You can either go back to base and heal or stay as far away from the other player as possible while waiting to regen ever so slowly. You generate 300 HP per minute from RoH. That is a lifetime of losing XP during the laning phase. If you survived the first gank, you won't survive the next, because their skills will be leveled up and you won't be at full health.

Ok. So you survive the gank, and are down 300 hp. You take 50 seconds to heal up the 300 hp with your RoH. it sucks, and you miss out on farm.

So, pop quiz. Exact same thing happens and you don't have a RoH. Wtf do you do?

1- Use 3 tango charges. All in all, it takes you more than 50 seconds to fully heal. Why? Do the math. Tango doesn't start working until you activate it and click on a tree. You get hit in the middle of lane, you get stunned, the gank attempt proceeds, you run out, you can't stop at the first tree because you still need to run, so you run behind your tower and then you activate tango. Time elapsed: maybe 10 seconds. But during that 10 seconds, if you had a RoH, you would have already regenerated 50 hp. It's a huge head start. Ultimately, to regen all your hp, you need to activate 3 whole tango, spend 90g to replace them if necessary, and still didn't save any significant real time.

2- Walk back and heal. This is obviously even worse than 1.

3- Teleport out and heal. More expensive than 1, and will take more time to walk back.

4- Realize you didn't do the math, and while it sucks to sit back for 50 seconds and heal using a RoH, it isn't really any worse than the alternatives.

 

[CWRMadcat]

Exaggerate much? Nearly all the announcers are $10, outfits are $6-$14, and couriers are $8-$15.

I bought the Pyrion Flax announcer pack. I enjoy it quite a bit.

 

[Zeze]

Ok. So you survive the gank, and are down 300 hp. You take 50 seconds to heal up the 300 hp with your RoH. it sucks, and you miss out on farm.

So, pop quiz. Exact same thing happens and you don't have a RoH. Wtf do you do?

1- Use 3 tango charges. All in all, it takes you more than 50 seconds to fully heal. Why? Do the math. Tango doesn't start working until you activate it and click on a tree. You get hit in the middle of lane, you get stunned, the gank attempt proceeds, you run out, you can't stop at the first tree because you still need to run, so you run behind your tower and then you activate tango. Time elapsed: maybe 10 seconds. But during that 10 seconds, if you had a RoH, you would have already regenerated 50 hp. It's a huge head start. Ultimately, to regen all your hp, you need to activate 3 whole tango, spend 90g to replace them if necessary, and still didn't save any significant real time.

2- Walk back and heal. This is obviously even worse than 1.

3- Teleport out and heal. More expensive than 1, and will take more time to walk back.

4- Realize you didn't do the math, and while it sucks to sit back for 50 seconds and heal using a RoH, it isn't really any worse than the alternatives.

Awful, just awful.

You bring salve if you don't have it already.

 

[CWRMadcat]

Awful, just awful.

He forgot about the salve.

Ok I'm done for real.

If you're trolling btw, you're doing an excellent job. 10/10.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

How do you know it's so bad or "not optimal" if you have never seen it actually used in a game, not even once? It sounds like you are just repeating dogma, rather than speaking from any real experience.

I know it's not optimal because I've played for so long I remember when Ring of Regen and Headdress starts were extremely common.

 

[Chiropteran]

He forgot about the salve.

Ok I'm done for real.

If you're trolling btw, you're doing an excellent job. 10/10.

I didn't forget. Salve is inherently harder to use than RoH, while tango is more directly comparable. It also costs a lot more, and if you are only down 300 hp it is somewhat wasted.

If you use salve, you need to be a lot further back, or you get hit and lose it.

Is it better to lose xp & gold for 15 seconds or lose some gold and denies for 30 seconds?

I mean the effects of salve are great, but the cost is high and if you are using them to top off every time you take a couple hits you will seriously stunt your item purchases. How many salve do you buy per game typically? If the answer is 1, do you just die if someone attempts to gank you more than once your whole lane phase, or what?

You bring salve if you don't have it already.

And lose 30 seconds waiting for the courier? What?

 

[Zeze]

I didn't forget. Salve is inherently harder to use than RoH, while tango is more directly comparable. It also costs a lot more, and if you are only down 300 hp it is somewhat wasted.

If you use salve, you need to be a lot further back, or you get hit and lose it.

Is it better to lose xp & gold for 15 seconds or lose some gold and denies for 30 seconds?

I mean the effects of salve are great, but the cost is high and if you are using them to top off every time you take a couple hits you will seriously stunt your item purchases. How many salve do you buy per game typically? If the answer is 1, do you just die if someone attempts to gank you more than once your whole lane phase, or what?

Shut up you ignorant troll. We wrote 100+ replies of paragraphs and paragraphs for you. You are a hopeless trash or a troll.

Have fun at the garbage tier where you continue to play with equally garbage players. Not ONE person is with you on RoH or Linkens (LOL) in here or reddit or even low-skill Playdota forums. But you will find millions of bad players are at your lowest bottom tier & Garena.

He forgot about the salve.

Ok I'm done for real.

If you're trolling btw, you're doing an excellent job. 10/10.

Yeah I'm done. At the end of the day I'm never going to get placed with you in MM so it's irrelevant. Do as you will.

I'm truly done. This guy is hopeless.

I'm the idiot from now on to level with this person.

 

[smackababy]

Ok. So you survive the gank, and are down 300 hp. You take 50 seconds to heal up the 300 hp with your RoH. it sucks, and you miss out on farm.

So, pop quiz. Exact same thing happens and you don't have a RoH. Wtf do you do?

1- Use 3 tango charges. All in all, it takes you more than 50 seconds to fully heal. Why? Do the math. Tango doesn't start working until you activate it and click on a tree. You get hit in the middle of lane, you get stunned, the gank attempt proceeds, you run out, you can't stop at the first tree because you still need to run, so you run behind your tower and then you activate tango. Time elapsed: maybe 10 seconds. But during that 10 seconds, if you had a RoH, you would have already regenerated 50 hp. It's a huge head start. Ultimately, to regen all your hp, you need to activate 3 whole tango, spend 90g to replace them if necessary, and still didn't save any significant real time.

2- Walk back and heal. This is obviously even worse than 1.

3- Teleport out and heal. More expensive than 1, and will take more time to walk back.

4- Realize you didn't do the math, and while it sucks to sit back for 50 seconds and heal using a RoH, it isn't really any worse than the alternatives.

Except, you didn't read my scenario. Any hero you would buy RoH on, chance are I would buy 3 branches, tangos and a salve. Thus, I wouldn't be as low as you, and even if I was, I have a burst heal PLUS some regen if I need it. And if you wait until you are at very low health before using a tango, you are doing it wrong. At maybe 75% HP I will pop one.

 

[Chiropteran]

Except, you didn't read my scenario. Any hero you would buy RoH on, chance are I would buy 3 branches, tangos and a salve. Thus, I wouldn't be as low as you, and even if I was, I have a burst heal PLUS some regen if I need it. And if you wait until you are at very low health before using a tango, you are doing it wrong. At maybe 75% HP I will pop one.

You said:

If you survive a gank attempt and are left with say 100HP

If you can pop a tango off in the middle of the gank attempt, before you get "very low", then it's not a very good gank attempt. Trying to imagine this in my mind, I was thinking someone sitting in the middle of the river mid lane, stunned and taking hits. How exactly is tango going to do anything for you, until after you completely get away?

If not a burst damage gank, then the RoH has MORE time to work. If, instead of a stun/burst damaging gank in the middle of the lane, instead you are talking about taking a nuke, and then 20 seconds later taking a separate nuke, totaling damage that puts you down to 100 hp, then you could use a tango in-between, sure. But at the same time, the RoH is going to heal up 100 hp in-between the two separate attacks as well.

Either it's a burst damage gank, in which case your tangos aren't helping you until it's done, or it's slow and gradual damage of attrition, in which case the RoH has more time to work and less time to be wasted "sitting back".

 

[Chiropteran]

Okay, Zeze.

Why don't I propose this?

You and I play 1v1.

You know you have reached maximum rage when they want to 1v1 you.

I always type this in the game too. It makes them explode beyond belief.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

Why would you be sitting in the middle of the river mid lane long enough to be ganked?

 

[BergeLSU]

I think I won my first ever Dota 2 game getting a Midas on Lich. I should use that strategy more often.

 

[Chiropteran]

Why would you be sitting in the middle of the river mid lane long enough to be ganked?

The example was, what if you survive a gank attempt. There needs to be a situation in which that gank attempt can actually occur if you want to have a rational discussion about what you do afterwards.

 

[smackababy]

You said:


If you can pop a tango off in the middle of the gank attempt, before you get "very low", then it's not a very good gank attempt. Trying to imagine this in my mind, I was thinking someone sitting in the middle of the river mid lane, stunned and taking hits. How exactly is tango going to do anything for you, until after you completely get away?

If not a burst damage gank, then the RoH has MORE time to work. If, instead of a stun/burst damaging gank in the middle of the lane, instead you are talking about taking a nuke, and then 20 seconds later taking a separate nuke, totaling damage that puts you down to 100 hp, then you could use a tango in-between, sure. But at the same time, the RoH is going to heal up 100 hp in-between the two separate attacks as well.

Either it's a burst damage gank, in which case your tangos aren't helping you until it's done, or it's slow and gradual damage of attrition, in which case the RoH has more time to work and less time to be wasted "sitting back".

And in the even you get hit with a gank that brings you down to 100HP, you are screwed and lose the lane with RoH. If you leave the lane for more than the time it takes to grab the run before the 8 minute mark, you've lost mid. The only exception is if you killed the other play and are forced to go heal because of it.

A player with 3 brances, tango, and a salve would be out of the lane (and not down to 100HP anyway) for maybe 10 seconds. He wouldn't even need to leave XP range depending on where the lane was. A player with RoH, would need to leave the lane for at least 60 seconds to even get enough health to not be ganked again and even then, the abilities used to gank would be ready to be used again and probably leveled up. So, you're dead this time.

In the event of a dual lane, I am harassing you every time you go to a last hit if I am the babysitter. 100% of the time you are getting at best a traded last hit from me. And once my partner is ready, you're getting hit with what we got. And then you're either out of the lane completely (because I am not worried, as a babysitter, with getting farm or even XP as long as my carry can get it), I am moving up to continue to harass you. You are going back to base, and the best possible scenario for you is walking back, because I will be trying make sure you're walking back to lane after a res.

 

[smackababy]

The example was, what if you survive a gank attempt. There needs to be a situation in which that gank attempt can actually occur if you want to have a rational discussion about what you do afterwards.

And being mid river without vision is bad. But I'm sure you, and your ilk, don't ward close enough to see a gank.

I have ganked at their tower plenty of times. It all depends how you can react to the situation.

 

[nijikon5]

Holy shit.

I had to create an acct just to put in my 2cents. It was just painful watching this f'n trainwreck unfold.

Zeze, I understand 100% where youre coming from. You basically tried to explain to Chiropean why his fundamental understanding of the game/item build is completely flawed. It's not about "sprouting some dogma" or being a elitist or trolling, Zeze is explaining to you why random gold is being wasted on a RoH / why BKB is universally a top tier item in terms of value / function.

I have seen a few AMs get random gold RoH and it is just absolutely awful/garbage. They get completely zoned out by anyone semi-competent and are setback a ton.

I have a friend who's played HoN and now plays DotA2, between the two games he has about 1000-1200 games of experience with a 51-52% win rate. He gets the same dipshit item builds each game and due to the opponent's he gets matched up against, it works. Example? 1st item headdress as necrolyte and into naked boots/dagon. Or the classical 3 gaunts of str on pudge or kunkka go mid get stats over torrent build. Everytime we queue together, he justs absolutely smashed in my bracket because of his item choices or lack of consumables / bad ability to read situations.

It's what I call the fap school of gameplay. You play as you fap, just to satisfy yourself. No concept of a multiplayer game or working with teammates. Winning is secondary, pleasing and feeling yourself is your primary concern. When people suggest tips, you immediately get defensive and try to validate your choices instead of trying to comprehend their advice.

The main problem with dota2 is that with so many inherently oblivious and low tier players, people get away with awful item builds, skill builds, and dives. It's just reinforcing the badness over and over.

One of the most cringeworthy moments in this thread was citing the Linken's vs. BKB winrates. What does that prove? #1 BKB is built probably 8 out of 10 games or more, Linken? maybe 1 out of 10. Forget about the sample size, the simple fact is what is the win rate of naked boots vs. eye of skadi? In fact, Eye of Skadi has something stupid like a 80%+ win rate, go ahead and rush that every game. Tell me if you win 80% of your games.

I've been playing since Septemeber 2011 ( only about 300-400 people in the dota beta ). I've tried all kinds of herp derp builds and have played against people from dignitas, EG ect ect. I don't think I'm some super elite player who needs to force my opinion on people, but when horribads feel themselves too much, yeah, I can't stand it.

 

[Chiropteran]

And in the even you get hit with a gank that brings you down to 100HP, you are screwed and lose the lane with RoH. If you leave the lane for more than the time it takes to grab the run before the 8 minute mark, you've lost mid. The only exception is if you killed the other play and are forced to go heal because of it.

A player with 3 brances, tango, and a salve would be out of the lane (and not down to 100HP anyway) for maybe 10 seconds. He wouldn't even need to leave XP range depending on where the lane was. A player with RoH, would need to leave the lane for at least 60 seconds to even get enough health to not be ganked again and even then, the abilities used to gank would be ready to be used again and probably leveled up. So, you're dead this time.

In the event of a dual lane, I am harassing you every time you go to a last hit if I am the babysitter. 100% of the time you are getting at best a traded last hit from me. And once my partner is ready, you're getting hit with what we got. And then you're either out of the lane completely (because I am not worried, as a babysitter, with getting farm or even XP as long as my carry can get it), I am moving up to continue to harass you. You are going back to base, and the best possible scenario for you is walking back, because I will be trying make sure you're walking back.

I agree that salve is a strong item and you could easily return to lane after 10 seconds, but a lot of the other stuff you wrote is exaggerated.

The RoH is always working. You can't ignore this fact. If the process of the "gank" takes 5 seconds, the RoH healed 25 hp before it's even over. Not much, but it's there. You also can't pop the salve after the 5 second mark, because you pop it immediately the enemy just has to use one ability and interrupt it. If you are facing a windrunner or kunkka or anyone else with annoyingly long range you might not even be able to safely use the salve behind your tower. I'd say on average, you need 5 seconds to get in position before you can use the salve, and then it will top you off in 7 seconds. Total time from first damage, 17 seconds.

Meanwhile, my RoH has healed 85 hp. Not enough, you say. Well, I am also 100G up compared to you, because that salve is expensive as hell. Maybe I use the courier and get a tango, and using 1 tango charge I fully heal over the next 15 seconds.

Now you said "If you leave the lane for more than the time it takes to grab the run before the 8 minute mark, you've lost mid."

Thing is, it's not so simple. If I can see the other 4 enemies in other lanes, I don't need to wait until I have full hp to venture back out. Maybe you think the idea of being in lane 100 hp down from max is insane and dangerous, but it isn't always. There are degrees of safety. I can go for some last hits while staying very close to my tower, and if no enemies are missing and I am aware of what my lane opponent can do there isn't necessarily any great risk. In fact, at low levels (which this is all about), most heroes are effectively done for a couple minutes after a gank attempt, as spells cost a lot of mana and after a serious try for a kill there isn't anything left. If my opponent is low on mana and unable to cast anything I can be even more confident about last hitting and deny him even without being topped off on hp, because I know the real risk of getting killed is zero.

 

[Zeze]

Oh my god, the troll lured a lurker! LOL.

 

[Peter Nixeus]

I think I won my first ever Dota 2 game getting a Midas on Lich. I should use that strategy more often.

Lich is very dangerous now due to the 3 extra Ultimate Bounces = Total 10 Bounces.

Also at Chiropteran: I'm trying to help make your game better, not trying to argue with you.

Regarding RoH... I would never get it unless it is part of my essential hero item build (i.e. Vanguard)... One of the first things I do with my lane partner is check to see if you have Tango or Savles and what other items (iron branches, etc)- if you don't have either and you step into my lane with just a RoH or trying to get a RoH we will imediately harass or gank you specifically to keep you out of XP range or prevent you from getting gold to prolong you from getting RoH - if you go tower hugging with your RoH (if you do end up getting it) to heal up one of us will come at your flank while another one of us will come straight at you to get First Blood (we ward behind your tower to see your flank)... If you go tower hugging your lane partner may get upset because he will have to go tower hugging with you too and lose exp/gold - because if he doesn't tower hug with you he will get ganked... And more experienced players know how to control the creep wave to know when to tower dive you when you are healing with your RoH, so tower hugging will not even work most of the time.

You will get mad at your lane partner because he didn't harass us enough to allow you to get gold/exp and your lane partner will get mad at you for not getting the proper items to stay in lane... If you get or going for a RoH = prolong getting your boots = slow as a snail = easy gank = easy to keep at a distance or gank in the laning phase...

The reason why my above statements will work? Because I've done it many times already and when I was a new Dota 2 player I was doing the same thing you were doing and it did not work with my higher tier friends - I had to change/adapt to the advice my friends were giving me. Essential beginning items add stats/damage - which already gives an advantage over a RoH beginning game build.

I only get a RoH if I want to turn a Non-jungle hero into a jungle hero early in the game, not for staying in lane... for the same price of RoH, I rather get stat build items during the early game.

 

[nijikon5]

Oh my god, the troll lured a lurker! LOL.

Not really lurking.

Friend linked me to this and head was ready to explode about 4 pages in.

 

[Zeze]

Not really lurking.

Friend linked me to this and head was ready to explode about 4 pages in.

Welcome. 🙂

And I apologize about Chiro or whatever his name is.

 

[Zeze]

.

...

He forgot about the salve.

Ok I'm done for real.

If you're trolling btw, you're doing an excellent job. 10/10.

Yeah I'm done. At the end of the day I'm never going to get placed with you in MM so it's irrelevant. Do as you will.

I'm truly done. This guy is hopeless.

It's not even about being bad, but his fundamental way of thinking is... unique. He abandons basic logic and reading comprehension.

I'm the idiot from now on to level with this person.

 

[Chiropteran]

Yeah I'm done. At the end of the day I'm never going to get placed with you in MM so it's irrelevant. Do as you will.

Curious, would you share your Dota 2 account name? Are you in high or v high elo?