The Ultimate Wal Mart Thread; Is Wal Mart good for America

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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Trade deficits ultimately affect the value of the currency in international money markets. Those $3T American dollars floating around overseas are fundamentally a debt. The holders of american dollars accepted them as an act of faith, in the belief that such can be traded for other currencies or used to purchase dollar based assets, the exchange rates being set by market forces. Market stability depends on a nation's ability to defend the value of their currency against others, mostly achieved through buy-backs with other currencies held in reserve by themselves or their economic allies.

Whenever the imbalance becomes too great to maintain faith in the perceived value and the ability to carry out such buy-backs isn't available, the value of a given currency will fall, often precipitously. For the population on the losing end of this scenario, the price of imports rises sharply, interest rates increase dramatically, and inflation becomes a serious issue. Relative value for exports increases, but that won't help much if the industrial capacity to produce export goods is non-existant....

There are a variety of ways to exploit currency exchange rates available to governments and investors. The Chinese, for example, peg the value of the Yuan unrealistically low against the dollar to encourage the flow of investment capital into their economy and provide growth. This also maintains a market advantage for chinese goods- their low price is due, in part, to the exchange rate. When that investment torrent slows to a trickle or when it suits other political purposes, they'll make their move...

Investors can reap huge profits in currency exchange markets whenever such shifts occur. There's even a futures market, and margin buying for those with the right credit references. Billions can be made or lost virtually overnight, as George Soros would attest. Nations with truly rational fiscal policies and positive trade positions come out on top, those who don't ultimately suffer.

In the short term, international borrowing and deficit spending helps absorb some of the excess currency, so long as faith in the given currency is strong. Realistically, however, the practice merely masks long term imbalance, making the ultimate denouement even more difficult for the population of that nation... when the day comes that their government can't borrow in their own currency, they're buried....

That's the general population, of course. The financial elite, those of unassailable wealth, can and will exploit the situation no matter what. As we've seen in other economies, like Argentina, they'll deliberately create such scenarios for their own benefit, knowing the ultimate result beforehand. Yeh, the Argentines did just fine, for awhile, enjoying the low price of imported goods and the largesse of govt deficits- until the plug got pulled, the middle class annihilated, their collective assets largely sold off and debt maintenance skyrocketed to consume ~37% of their federal budget...

So, is Walmart good for America? Depends on how you define it. Yeh, sure, it feels good now, like a toke off a crack pipe- nothing like it, better than orgasm, absolutely terrific. So good, in fact, that it completely distorts your judgement, and you'll do things you know aren't good at all to maintain that feeling...

 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Sandorski what you're describing is Trade *DEBT*, not a Trade Deficit scenario. Perhaps you are making the same error that many do in assuming the National Debt is the same as the National Deficit; it ISN'T.

And Ldir...kiss my @ss you ignorant turd.

Jason
 

Ultima

Platinum Member
Oct 16, 1999
2,893
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn

In the short term, international borrowing and deficit spending helps absorb some of the excess currency, so long as faith in the given currency is strong. Realistically, however, the practice merely masks long term imbalance, making the ultimate denouement even more difficult for the population of that nation... when the day comes that their government can't borrow in their own currency, they're buried....

That's the general population, of course. The financial elite, those of unassailable wealth, can and will exploit the situation no matter what. As we've seen in other economies, like Argentina, they'll deliberately create such scenarios for their own benefit, knowing the ultimate result beforehand. Yeh, the Argentines did just fine, for awhile, enjoying the low price of imported goods and the largesse of govt deficits- until the plug got pulled, the middle class annihilated, their collective assets largely sold off and debt maintenance skyrocketed to consume ~37% of their federal budget...

So, is Walmart good for America? Depends on how you define it. Yeh, sure, it feels good now, like a toke off a crack pipe- nothing like it, better than orgasm, absolutely terrific. So good, in fact, that it completely distorts your judgement, and you'll do things you know aren't good at all to maintain that feeling...

If the middle class ever got wiped out in the USA, can you imagine the riots and the mayhem? The USA is going to have to take away people's guns and implement a police state if they want hope of controlling that..

Although, thinking about it, if the currency got devalued and the middle class wiped out, wouldn't that result in a massive deflation of material goods? I mean, it's all about supply and demand, right? If it ends up that 80% can't afford a house because of low wages, wouldn't the prices of houses go down? The house has to be sold to SOMEONE.. and the same with cars and whatnot. Or would they just bulldoze suburbia because nobody can afford it
rolleye.gif
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Well here's a novel idea: Why don't we institute *real* economic Freedom and see what happens!

I'm really sick to death of all this gloom-and-doom fearmongering about "the destruction of the middle class" crap that ends up serving no other function than to justify why some people should have the right to steal the property of other people "for the greater good."

Jason
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Well here's a novel idea: Why don't we institute *real* economic Freedom and see what happens!

I'm really sick to death of all this gloom-and-doom fearmongering about "the destruction of the middle class" crap that ends up serving no other function than to justify why some people should have the right to steal the property of other people "for the greater good."

Jason

I don't see anyone advocating stealing anyone's property. Pure hyperbole.

I say we force Wal-Mart to allow their employees to unionize. Wal-Mart, the corporation, has all this incredible market clout, yet their employees have absolutely none. At least if the employees could collectively bargain, they could negotiate a living wage and some decent benefits. Let's pass on some of those "Wal-Mart savings" to the employees of Wal-Mart instead of giving it all away to the customer.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,915
6,792
126
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Well here's a novel idea: Why don't we institute *real* economic Freedom and see what happens!

I'm really sick to death of all this gloom-and-doom fearmongering about "the destruction of the middle class" crap that ends up serving no other function than to justify why some people should have the right to steal the property of other people "for the greater good."

Jason
What do you make of a people who don't provide for the greater good. For millions of years we have lived as a communal animals sharing instinctively and naturally everything we own. Now all of a sudden people are choosing extinction in the form of temporary personal gain by eating the communal pie. Funny though, how they object when you call them pigs.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Well here's a novel idea: Why don't we institute *real* economic Freedom and see what happens!

I'm really sick to death of all this gloom-and-doom fearmongering about "the destruction of the middle class" crap that ends up serving no other function than to justify why some people should have the right to steal the property of other people "for the greater good."

Jason

I don't see anyone advocating stealing anyone's property. Pure hyperbole.

I say we force Wal-Mart to allow their employees to unionize. Wal-Mart, the corporation, has all this incredible market clout, yet their employees have absolutely none. At least if the employees could collectively bargain, they could negotiate a living wage and some decent benefits. Let's pass on some of those "Wal-Mart savings" to the employees of Wal-Mart instead of giving it all away to the customer.

Pure BS. The "Wal-Mart worker" has just as much "clout" as I do in my non-union job and more individual clout than unions workers do. They negotiate their own wage - just like I do. They can leave or not take the job - just like I can/do. This idea that Unions some how save employees from the big bad corporation is BS. These people CHOOSE to work there - they aren't forced. The worker isn't FORCED to do anything they don't want to do - they have all the right in the world to walk out the door if they think it's so bad. Unions take away individual freedoms...for the "collective". I work for my employer in exchange for his money - there is NO need for a middle man to "protect" me or tell me what I am allowed to earn for my labor.

CkG
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,858
6,394
126
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Sandorski what you're describing is Trade *DEBT*, not a Trade Deficit scenario. Perhaps you are making the same error that many do in assuming the National Debt is the same as the National Deficit; it ISN'T.

And Ldir...kiss my @ss you ignorant turd.

Jason

No. You described a Trade Debt, I described a Trade Deficit. I also know the difference between a Debt and a Deficit. Don't confuse the Trade Debt/Deficit issue and the National Debt/Deficit issue, they are significantly different issues, though both are serious.

Simply put, the Trade Deficit is when a Nation Imports more Goods and Services then it Exports. This causes an Outflow of Wealth. As Jhhnn astutely put it, the current US Trade Deficit(some $500 Billion/year) has been maintained because foreign Nations have invested in the $US, essentially giving the US Credit in order for the US to maintain its' current Trade Deficit.

The National Debt/Deficit is a different situation. With it the Deficit is the shortfall of Money Earned(by Governments from Tax Payers) to Money Spent. The addition of Annual Deficits accumulates into the National Debt.

The difference between the 2 is how they are calculated:

1) The Trade Balance is calculated Annually and is the sum of all Trade between Trade Partners. If the Sum is a Positive, then it is called a Trade Surplus. If the Sum is a Negative, then it is called a Trade Deficit.

2) The National Balance is also calculated Annually and is the Balance between Taxes received and Monies paid out. If more Taxes are recieved then Paid, then there is a Surplus, the opposite is a Deficit. If there is a number of Annual Deficits, it gets added to the National Debt, which is simply all the Deficits combined.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Well here's a novel idea: Why don't we institute *real* economic Freedom and see what happens!

I'm really sick to death of all this gloom-and-doom fearmongering about "the destruction of the middle class" crap that ends up serving no other function than to justify why some people should have the right to steal the property of other people "for the greater good."

Jason

I don't see anyone advocating stealing anyone's property. Pure hyperbole.

I say we force Wal-Mart to allow their employees to unionize. Wal-Mart, the corporation, has all this incredible market clout, yet their employees have absolutely none. At least if the employees could collectively bargain, they could negotiate a living wage and some decent benefits. Let's pass on some of those "Wal-Mart savings" to the employees of Wal-Mart instead of giving it all away to the customer.

Pure BS. The "Wal-Mart worker" has just as much "clout" as I do in my non-union job and more individual clout than unions workers do. They negotiate their own wage - just like I do. They can leave or not take the job - just like I can/do. This idea that Unions some how save employees from the big bad corporation is BS. These people CHOOSE to work there - they aren't forced. The worker isn't FORCED to do anything they don't want to do - they have all the right in the world to walk out the door if they think it's so bad. Unions take away individual freedoms...for the "collective". I work for my employer in exchange for his money - there is NO need for a middle man to "protect" me or tell me what I am allowed to earn for my labor.

CkG

Just because YOU are not PERSONALLY FORCED to work at Walmart doesn't mean the rest of the population that has no where else to go for work because Walmart has decimated everything else across many Markets. Guess there is absolutely no reason the Company is the world's largest Corporation
rolleye.gif
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,858
6,394
126
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Well here's a novel idea: Why don't we institute *real* economic Freedom and see what happens!

I'm really sick to death of all this gloom-and-doom fearmongering about "the destruction of the middle class" crap that ends up serving no other function than to justify why some people should have the right to steal the property of other people "for the greater good."

Jason

I don't see anyone advocating stealing anyone's property. Pure hyperbole.

I say we force Wal-Mart to allow their employees to unionize. Wal-Mart, the corporation, has all this incredible market clout, yet their employees have absolutely none. At least if the employees could collectively bargain, they could negotiate a living wage and some decent benefits. Let's pass on some of those "Wal-Mart savings" to the employees of Wal-Mart instead of giving it all away to the customer.

Pure BS. The "Wal-Mart worker" has just as much "clout" as I do in my non-union job and more individual clout than unions workers do. They negotiate their own wage - just like I do. They can leave or not take the job - just like I can/do. This idea that Unions some how save employees from the big bad corporation is BS. These people CHOOSE to work there - they aren't forced. The worker isn't FORCED to do anything they don't want to do - they have all the right in the world to walk out the door if they think it's so bad. Unions take away individual freedoms...for the "collective". I work for my employer in exchange for his money - there is NO need for a middle man to "protect" me or tell me what I am allowed to earn for my labor.

CkG

What of one's Freedom to join a Union?
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Pure BS. The "Wal-Mart worker" has just as much "clout" as I do in my non-union job and more individual clout than unions workers do. They negotiate their own wage - just like I do. They can leave or not take the job - just like I can/do. This idea that Unions some how save employees from the big bad corporation is BS. These people CHOOSE to work there - they aren't forced. The worker isn't FORCED to do anything they don't want to do - they have all the right in the world to walk out the door if they think it's so bad. Unions take away individual freedoms...for the "collective". I work for my employer in exchange for his money - there is NO need for a middle man to "protect" me or tell me what I am allowed to earn for my labor.

CkG
Yes, Cad, we're all quite clear on YOUR stance on unions. It's been well-established around here. However, we're not talking about what you think, we're talking about whether Wal-Mart employees should be able to join or form unions without bullying or repercussions from Wal-Mart corporate. If you compare the salaries and benefits of Wal-Mart employees vs. their Supermarket counterparts you'll easily see there's a tremendous benefit to collective bargaining.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Pure BS. The "Wal-Mart worker" has just as much "clout" as I do in my non-union job and more individual clout than unions workers do. They negotiate their own wage - just like I do. They can leave or not take the job - just like I can/do. This idea that Unions some how save employees from the big bad corporation is BS. These people CHOOSE to work there - they aren't forced. The worker isn't FORCED to do anything they don't want to do - they have all the right in the world to walk out the door if they think it's so bad. Unions take away individual freedoms...for the "collective". I work for my employer in exchange for his money - there is NO need for a middle man to "protect" me or tell me what I am allowed to earn for my labor.

CkG
Yes, Cad, we're all quite clear on YOUR stance on unions. It's been well-established around here. However, we're not talking about what you think, we're talking about whether Wal-Mart employees should be able to join or form unions without bullying or repercussions from Wal-Mart corporate. If you compare the salaries and benefits of Wal-Mart employees vs. their Supermarket counterparts you'll easily see there's a tremendous benefit to collective bargaining.

Wal-Mart employees are free to form unions, just as Wal-Mart is free to fire them if they attempt to form one. I bet if enough employees tried to form a union, they'd succeed. Forming a union is establishing a negotiating force to "bully" the company into demands. No different than the legal tactics a company can take to stop a union.

Reminds me of the IBEW union headquarters in Vegas, with this on the building "Through solidarity, we will Win!". Win? This is a contest? There is a winner and a loser? Yah, those are the kind of people I want to work for my company...

Of course, you are saying let's "FORCE" Wal-Mart to form a union. Well well...workers of the world unite eh?

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Pure BS. The "Wal-Mart worker" has just as much "clout" as I do in my non-union job and more individual clout than unions workers do. They negotiate their own wage - just like I do. They can leave or not take the job - just like I can/do. This idea that Unions some how save employees from the big bad corporation is BS. These people CHOOSE to work there - they aren't forced. The worker isn't FORCED to do anything they don't want to do - they have all the right in the world to walk out the door if they think it's so bad. Unions take away individual freedoms...for the "collective". I work for my employer in exchange for his money - there is NO need for a middle man to "protect" me or tell me what I am allowed to earn for my labor.

CkG
Yes, Cad, we're all quite clear on YOUR stance on unions. It's been well-established around here. However, we're not talking about what you think, we're talking about whether Wal-Mart employees should be able to join or form unions without bullying or repercussions from Wal-Mart corporate. If you compare the salaries and benefits of Wal-Mart employees vs. their Supermarket counterparts you'll easily see there's a tremendous benefit to collective bargaining.

"I say we force Wal-Mart to allow their employees to unionize." - DealMonkey

"should be able to join or form unions" is quite different from "force". You said it - I responded.

CkG
 

Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
2
71
"I say we force Wal-Mart to allow their employees to unionize." - DealMonkey

Actually the employees should be allowed to freely choose without fear of repurcussions.

Many years ago I actually went through a union organizing attempt at a workplace. You have to meet secretly and are constantly fearing repurcussions. The company puts you through many small group "meetings" which of course are anti-union in nature.

We lost by two votes 157-155 or something like that. About six months later or so....14 employees were fired on the same day for dubious reasons. 13 were union supporters and only one was not.

I quit the following week.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,858
6,394
126
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Pure BS. The "Wal-Mart worker" has just as much "clout" as I do in my non-union job and more individual clout than unions workers do. They negotiate their own wage - just like I do. They can leave or not take the job - just like I can/do. This idea that Unions some how save employees from the big bad corporation is BS. These people CHOOSE to work there - they aren't forced. The worker isn't FORCED to do anything they don't want to do - they have all the right in the world to walk out the door if they think it's so bad. Unions take away individual freedoms...for the "collective". I work for my employer in exchange for his money - there is NO need for a middle man to "protect" me or tell me what I am allowed to earn for my labor.

CkG
Yes, Cad, we're all quite clear on YOUR stance on unions. It's been well-established around here. However, we're not talking about what you think, we're talking about whether Wal-Mart employees should be able to join or form unions without bullying or repercussions from Wal-Mart corporate. If you compare the salaries and benefits of Wal-Mart employees vs. their Supermarket counterparts you'll easily see there's a tremendous benefit to collective bargaining.

"I say we force Wal-Mart to allow their employees to unionize." - DealMonkey

"should be able to join or form unions" is quite different from "force". You said it - I responded.

CkG

The difference is in allowing Employees the Freedom to organize. It is not Forcing a Union on Walmart.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
One of the things that I notice about this kind of discussion are the "anybody" vs "everybody" schools of thought. The "anybody can get ahead if they work at it" school of thought definitely has some merit, and some fatal flaws, too, as applied macro-economically. What if everybody did it, or enough people to flood the market with qualified individuals? That's obviously what's happened in the IT field, and it isn't getting any better RSN-

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/34626.html

That's in the UK, but I doubt it's any different in the US. So, uhh, beware, DMA, when the boss sends you an assistant you really don't need. As soon as that fresh faced kid learns the ropes around your place of business, you'll be out the door- downsizing, rightsizing and all that, I'm sure you'll understand.... just market forces, too bad... see ya.

And, of course, there's CkG, with his usual anti-union diatribe. Of course people don't have to work for Walmart- or do they? They have to work somewhere to eat and keep a roof over their heads, that's for sure... When there aren't enough good paying jobs for "everybody" then somebody will get stuck at Walmart, otherwise they'd raise wages or go out of business. And there's always some CAD-jockey in India, just dying to do your job for a fifth of the money... or maybe your bosses will bring him over on a temporary work visa, which will effectively remove any remnant of his backbone...

So, while "anybody" can get ahead, not "everybody" can do so. And, quite frankly, anybody who has done so without realizing there's some element of fortune involved hasn't really examined their own life very well, substituting arrogance for enlightenment. As a society, we're too often hung up on ourselves and fail to see that we're a product of that society in many ways. None of us is the Lone Ranger, and Ayn Rand's ravings won't be coming true. We all depend on a lot of other people in our daily lives, failure to give them their due speaks rather poorly of any compassionate values we might espouse.

Do the guys who haul off the trash deserve a decent living? What happens if nobody does? Same with the people who stock the shelves and clean the floors at Walmart- it's real work, with a purpose, so folks who do it deserve a tiny bit of the pie, some dignity, and at least a modicum of respect....

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
We must always keep in mind that labor is a commodity just like apples, peaches and punkin pie. You don't have to buy my labor or my apples if my price is not to your liking. And, I don't have to sell my labor or my peaches if you offer too little.. You know this and I know you know this, so I'm not trying to preach to the choir. But, what I am trying to say is that in an economy with alternatives a plenty we either sell our peaches at the price offered or stand the risk of not selling them at all. This situation always causes the price of peaches to go down because the purchaser knows the dynamics inherent with alternatives too. It don't matter if it is labor or punkin pie.
Unionization is the means to combat the greed always present in the mind and heart of the purchaser. His objective is to increase his own wealth on the back of the labor seller.
Walmart is almost a monopoly in the market it addresses. It has so much clout with all its suppliers that it can and will use what ever competition factors are available to it and in this nation that is exactly what it should do. They key is 'available to it' Walmart cannot keep a union vote from occurring it is a legal right. But, it can keep you from doing it again. It can lock out the union members and hire others to replace them. This is border line illegal but, probably still legal. The job market is such (at the moment) that there are alternatives available to Walmart. Take this away by a concerted effort by the Administration toward job creation and Walmart will pay what they have to to get labor. They will either pay or lose share to those who offer product at reasonable prices.
The psychology of the purchaser is not totally divorced from the psychology of the seller of labor.. and there are far more of these than there are owners of Walmart. All it take to put Walmart amongst the better paying employers in this nation is for Bush to get his people off their penguin butts and apply some simple myopic American first logic to the problem.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
"I say we force Wal-Mart to allow their employees to unionize." - DealMonkey

"should be able to join or form unions" is quite different from "force". You said it - I responded.

CkG
So what? Force to allow. I didn't say we'd force them to like it. :D Seriously, beyond your hatred for unions, why should Wal-Mart be able to fire workers for attempting to unionize? Isn't it their right to associate freely and to collectively bargain if they so desire?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
"I say we force Wal-Mart to allow their employees to unionize." - DealMonkey

"should be able to join or form unions" is quite different from "force". You said it - I responded.

CkG
So what? Force to allow. I didn't say we'd force them to like it. :D Seriously, beyond your hatred for unions, why should Wal-Mart be able to fire workers for attempting to unionize? Isn't it their right to associate freely and to collectively bargain if they so desire?

And it is also the right of the company to do what is neccessary to keep unions out under the law. They can both CHOOSE their own paths within the law.

CkG
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
I thought that the NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS ACT protects workers who want to unionize. How can Wal-Mart legally interfere with the employees who wish to organize? Here, I'll quote Sections 7 and 8 (the relevant sections):

RIGHTS OF EMPLOYEES

Sec. 7. [§ 157.] Employees shall have the right to self-organization, to form, join, or assist labor organizations, to bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing, and to engage in other concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection, and shall also have the right to refrain from any or all such activities except to the extent that such right may be affected by an agreement requiring membership in a labor organization as a condition of employment as authorized in section 8(a)(3) [section 158(a)(3) of this title].

UNFAIR LABOR PRACTICES

Sec. 8. [§ 158.] (a) [Unfair labor practices by employer] It shall be an unfair labor practice for an employer--

(1) to interfere with, restrain, or coerce employees in the exercise of the rights guaranteed in section 7 [section 157 of this title];

(2) to dominate or interfere with the formation or administration of any labor organization or contribute financial or other support to it: Provided, That subject to rules and regulations made and published by the Board pursuant to section 6 [section 156 of this title], an employer shall not be prohibited from permitting employees to confer with him during working hours without loss of time or pay;

(3) by discrimination in regard to hire or tenure of employment or any term or condition of employment to encourage or discourage membership in any labor organization: Provided, That nothing in this Act [subchapter], or in any other statute of the United States, shall preclude an employer from making an agreement with a labor organization (not established, maintained, or assisted by any action defined in section 8(a) of this Act [in this subsection] as an unfair labor practice) to require as a condition of employment membership therein on or after the thirtieth day following the beginning of such employment or the effective date of such agreement, whichever is the later, (i) if such labor organization is the representative of the employees as provided in section 9(a) [section 159(a) of this title], in the appropriate collective-bargaining unit covered by such agreement when made, and (ii) unless following an election held as provided in section 9(e) [section 159(e) of this title] within one year preceding the effective date of such agreement, the Board shall have certified that at least a majority of the employees eligible to vote in such election have voted to rescind the authority of such labor organization to make such an agreement: Provided further, That no employer shall justify any discrimination against an employee for nonmembership in a labor organization (A) if he has reasonable grounds for believing that such membership was not available to the employee on the same terms and conditions generally applicable to other members, or (B) if he has reasonable grounds for believing that membership was denied or terminated for reasons other than the failure of the employee to tender the periodic dues and the initiation fees uniformly required as a condition of acquiring or retaining membership;

(4) to discharge or otherwise discriminate against an employee because he has filed charges or given testimony under this Act [subchapter];

(5) to refuse to bargain collectively with the representatives of his employees, subject to the provisions of section 9(a) [section 159(a) of this title].
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Forget it, Dealmonkey, CkG just hates Unions and serves as an apologist for repressive employers, without any true understanding of the law or the issues. It's one of those put your hands over your ears and chant "Nah-nah-nah-nah" kind of deals, or a variant of hysterical blindness- trust me, OK?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,858
6,394
126
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
One of the things that I notice about this kind of discussion are the "anybody" vs "everybody" schools of thought. The "anybody can get ahead if they work at it" school of thought definitely has some merit, and some fatal flaws, too, as applied macro-economically. What if everybody did it, or enough people to flood the market with qualified individuals? That's obviously what's happened in the IT field, and it isn't getting any better RSN-

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/34626.html

That's in the UK, but I doubt it's any different in the US. So, uhh, beware, DMA, when the boss sends you an assistant you really don't need. As soon as that fresh faced kid learns the ropes around your place of business, you'll be out the door- downsizing, rightsizing and all that, I'm sure you'll understand.... just market forces, too bad... see ya.

And, of course, there's CkG, with his usual anti-union diatribe. Of course people don't have to work for Walmart- or do they? They have to work somewhere to eat and keep a roof over their heads, that's for sure... When there aren't enough good paying jobs for "everybody" then somebody will get stuck at Walmart, otherwise they'd raise wages or go out of business. And there's always some CAD-jockey in India, just dying to do your job for a fifth of the money... or maybe your bosses will bring him over on a temporary work visa, which will effectively remove any remnant of his backbone...

So, while "anybody" can get ahead, not "everybody" can do so. And, quite frankly, anybody who has done so without realizing there's some element of fortune involved hasn't really examined their own life very well, substituting arrogance for enlightenment. As a society, we're too often hung up on ourselves and fail to see that we're a product of that society in many ways. None of us is the Lone Ranger, and Ayn Rand's ravings won't be coming true. We all depend on a lot of other people in our daily lives, failure to give them their due speaks rather poorly of any compassionate values we might espouse.

Do the guys who haul off the trash deserve a decent living? What happens if nobody does? Same with the people who stock the shelves and clean the floors at Walmart- it's real work, with a purpose, so folks who do it deserve a tiny bit of the pie, some dignity, and at least a modicum of respect....

Well put. :beer:
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Well here's a novel idea: Why don't we institute *real* economic Freedom and see what happens!

I'm really sick to death of all this gloom-and-doom fearmongering about "the destruction of the middle class" crap that ends up serving no other function than to justify why some people should have the right to steal the property of other people "for the greater good."

Jason
Great idea. Here's a better one. You take your HappyLand idea and try it yourself first, somewhere else, where the rest of us don't have to suffer the consequences. Then get back to us in a few years, let us know how it went.

Most people don't want "*real* economic Freedom." Unrestrained economic freedom mostly means the people with the most wealth get to set the rules to give themselves even greater wealth ... at the expense of everyone else. Unrestrained economic freedom inexorably leads to "the destruction of the middle class" and a return to the bad old days of lords and serfs. That's because for every wealthy person like Sam Walton who recognized and respected the source of his success, you have a hundred leeches like the Walton heirs who only know how to take more, more, more.

This is completely contrary to the ideals that formed this country. Here in the civilized world, we have an agreement, a social pact. We enjoy the services and support and infrastructure provided for the common benefit of all Americans. In turn, we collectively give the dollars to fund these services.

That's right, we give the dollars. They are NOT taken. You get to choose. It is an optional system. If you decide you receive less value than you pay, you are quite welcome to haul your whiny butt to another country providing an environment better suited to your whims.

The problem is you don't want to leave. You are selfish. You are greedy. You are comfortable here. You want to have your cake and eat it to. You don't want to change. You want all the opportunities and conveniences and quality of life offered in the US -- indeed you demand it -- but you don't want to pay your fair share. You want someone else to foot the bill. You refuse to recognize what you take from the system, how the system is the only reason you had the opportunity to get where you are. In short, you're a wanna-be leech and you have my sincere contempt.



I know you didn't read the thread. Here's something else you've apparently never read:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. ...
We the People - the People, not the coporations.

promote the general welfare - not the welfare of the elite few, the general welfare.

Nothing there about unlimited wealth. Nothing about the right to take as much as you can get away with. Nothing about an individual's right to lie and cheat and steal his way to riches. Nothing suggesting it's OK to turn the U.S. into a third world country so corporations can gain an extra half-point of margin.

I am sick to death of selfish SOBs worshipping at the alter of greed, continually whining about how this country is all about unfettered capitalism. It wasn't and still isn't, but it may someday be if the ultra-wealthy can continue duping the greedy sheep into believing they can have mansions and personal jets and 20 year old supermodels on their arms too, someday, if only they work a little harder to put more money in the shareholders' pockets today. It is a delusion.

Like all good things, too much capitalism is bad for us.