The U.S. Middle Class Is Being Wiped Out

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SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
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Whatever. I don't have a duty to ensure someone can make a living in an obsolete unskilled manufacturing job at above market rates. You're not owned anything just because you're an American, and it's not my fault if you can't bother yourself to create a personal skill set to command a job position better than something that can be done by someone with a 1st grade education in Bangaladesh.

Why bother having a country then? Why don't we just have one large, glorious free market and practice dog eat dog capitalism at its finest?

And I have to ask, what's your magic secret for maintaining employment? Who are you to say that you aren't being paid above market rates? Why couldn't your job be done less expensively elsewhere? And if you run a small business, how does wishing away all your customers' jobs fit into your plan to make money?
 
Oct 30, 2004
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And guess what? The bottom 40% are often the young, uneducated and lack practical experience. Fortunately people do not stay young and inexperienced, they get skills and move up. Of course we have made it more difficult for these young workers by cranking up minimum wage( to make things fair) during a bad recession and all it has down is to help keep the young and unskilled unemployed(probably a topic for another thread).

Actually, we are starting to see college-educated people near the bottom, working low-wage jobs at Starbucks and elsewhere. Since just about everyone with an IQ of 95 or above goes to college these days, we have a huge oversupply of college-educated people while the number of jobs that make actual use of a college education has not increased. (In recent years they are decreasing.) For example, our nation has a large oversupply of scientists. See: http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16191/

The reality is manufacturing is going the same way farming did in the last century. 2% of our population can now feed the other 98%. The same is going to happen with manufacturing. And right now on average, the service industry pays more than manufacturing. Remember services are not just burger flippers, but many well paid professions that are required to sustain our standards of living.

An economy can only support so many paper-pushing white collar "service industry" jobs that produce no actual wealth. An economy can support only so many financial analysts, bankers, lobbyists, and lawyers. It's highly doubtful that automation will result in an abundance of such paper-pushing jobs. It may become true that all manufacturing can be automated, but the automation will create jobs in fields related to the servicing of the automation to replace the lost manufacturing jobs. The loss of manufacturing jobs and the flow of dollars overseas has hurt the U.S. tremendously. If the savings from increased manufacturing efficiency were internalized it would allow for job creation in other fields where human labor is utilized, but that doesn't happen when the manufacturing work goes overseas.
 
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alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
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I respectfully disagree (that the middle class is being wiped out). The middle class may be shrinking, but "wiped out" is an exaggeration.

A more fair question is: what is the middle class? The middle class in the US still enjoys a very comfortable standard of living. If by wiping out the middle class you mean that a lot of people have to start making choices on spending (iphones, cable tv, going out to eat, etc), that's not a bad thing. I bought an Old Navy T-shirt 8 years ago for 5 bucks and I still wear it today.
 
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HendrixFan

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Oct 18, 2001
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1/15? Unlikely. Wealth in US is concentrated, not spread out. Since China's is as well, I'm betting on average, it's more like 1/8.

I would be surprised if wealth was any more concentrated in China versus the US. I would think they are both equally uneven.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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This has been obvious for some time. If the imbeciles who are spoon fed and greedily chomp down on the crap thrown at them about trickle down and all that would grow a brain perhaps something could be done about it. Instead they will parrot on about the free market and evil big gov while their wages are eroded and their quality of life suffers.

I have been very curious about this mindset. What causes it? What happened to us? How did Americans lose any sense of collective identity or at least concern for the well-being of other Americans?

Somehow, although the free market dogmatists grew up in the United States, they end up having no empathy for other Americans. It's the, "I don't care if other Americans end up impoverished because no one has a right to be middle class when impoverished masses in other countries are willing to work for pennies an hour," mentality.

Part of it may be racial/cultural. Our society is just so diverse today that it's hard for some people to feel any kinship with other Americans or to identify one's self as being an American. The free market dogmatists just end up being unable to identify or feel any sense of collective identity with other Americans. In their minds all of the poor people become drug users and welfare queens who are out to steal their wealth and leach off of them. In their minds the working class is composed of lazy union members. It's a one man against other Americans type of mentality.

They have been very fortunate so far that the lower classes don't share the same modus operandi. If the lower classes started to see the upper classes as being alien and as leaching off of them or more accurately as enslaving them, and if they began to organize and agitate with the furor of the Tea Partiers, all hell could break lose in this country.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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The thing I don't get about Japan is that they are a world power with many multinational/global companies with lots of manufacturing and exporting.
That appears to be a very healthy economy. I guess their 0 population growth is hurting them in some way?

Japan may not be hurting as much as people think. Keep in mind that they have a very different culture and they don't "brag" as much as we do. Whereas we would tend to overstate how good our economy is, the Japanese would tend to downplay it and say that it is worse than it is. (Part of this might be to keep other nations from demanding that they reduce trade barriers.)

Here is some interesting reading on this subject:

Japan's Phoney Slump

America's Post Industrial Nightmare? A Conversation with Eamonn Fingleton
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Yes, they account for inflation, and they show increasing median personal income and median household income on a trend over the past 4 decades. You'll also notice that it dips down in every recession. The current one being, of course, no exception.

What if what we are experiencing is not merely a cyclical recession and not eve a depression, but rather a semi-permanent structural change to the nation's economy?
 
Oct 30, 2004
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People are getting poorer due to inflation and globalization. I think it best described as a poor-middle class.

Eventually everyone will have to have masters degrees for 40k per year jobs.

"Credential Inflation" and the "Education Arms Race" too is a sign of and a form of increasing impoverishment. Decades ago it was possible to climb up to a middle class white collar job without having any college education. People could work their way up and learn on the job. (I'm referring to general business-type jobs, not being a scientist or engineer.)

Then suddenly lots of people started going to college, and having a college degree became a prerequisite of getting one of those jobs. Having a college education became a proxy for measuring a job applicant's IQ and minimum sense of responsibility. Those jobs were still the same jobs as they were years ago. The only thing that changed is that now people need to spend 4 years of time and lots of money to qualify for them. They are more impoverished today than years ago in terms of opportunity cost and student loan debt.

This ("credential inflation") means that our society is wasting money and impoverishing itself needlessly. Now we have an "Education Arms Race" where people are caught in a cycle of trying to obtain more and more credentials so that they can trump other job applicants' credentials and worthiness.

The end result is that our nation is spending a huge amount of money on higher education that might not have any economic value. For example, we are producing a large oversupply of PhD scientists, lawyers, and MBAs.

Does having a huge oversupply of highly educated people benefit us? No. It all constitutes a massive amount of economic waste. Instead of sending everyone to college, our nation might be better off if instead much of that money was used for infrastructure construction projects and the purchase of goods and services that have real economic value.

Credential Inflation and the Education Arms Race is just one more example of how Americans are becoming poorer. Part of it is being driven by Global Labor Arbitrage--a lack of middle class manufacturing jobs and other jobs drives people into college. The resultant oversupply of people with bachelors degrees drives people into graduate and professional school, etc.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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It's true. I saw an infomercial the other day for a new kind of face lift surgery. Obvious clientèle being middle-aged+ women. Says it can give payment plans. Do you realize what that means? Middle-aged women actually exist in the US who are getting face lifts but cannot afford them; they have no savings whatsoever and yet think that taking out a loan to lift their still-haggard face is a good decision.

Oh, believe it, a good half of America are financially retarded in every sense of the word.

Do you really think so? How many people do you think actually respond to those stupid infomercials? If only 1 of 1000 people (0.1%) do they make money.

I don't buy it. I don't believe that the vast majority of Americans are retarded and irrational like the people who have the, "I don't care what happens to other Americans" mentality do.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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You are not entitled to a livable wage, you have to earn it. It used to be that a UAW worker in the 60s could earn a livable wage for the entire family, but that is not the case anymore.

Isn't it amazing how Americans were able to have a higher standard of living for themselves in those regards decades ago when our economy had less globalization and we had less immigration?

The white collar workers are not immune either, software development jobs are going overseas just the same. If you don't adapt your skills quickly in the fast-changing world economy, you become obsolete. It sounds cruel, but it is the way it works. The rest of the world is catching up fast, and we can't compete in the global stage unless we adapt.

The first step is to stop whining about job losses and actually improve our labor force skills so that we are competitive in the world labor market. Companies are not going to pay an American worker $30/hr when they can pay $5/hr elsewhere. We definitely can't compete on price because our standards of living expectation is much higher, but we can try to compete on labor skills. Thus, we need to further educate ourselves first. China and India already sees this, there is a reason they turn out so many engineers and scientists for the next generation. Your economy can only depend on low-cost manufacturing for so long.

The problem is not one of competition. Americans are competent and hard-working. We have our own engineers and even an oversupply of scientists and can produce more if we need them. The problem is that people in other countries are willing to work for lower wages or a lower percentage of their contribution to the act of wealth production. It's wage arbitrage. It's just that simple.

The solution? Reduce our exposure to global labor arbitrage. Enact tariffs. Enact a zero-dollar trade deficit policy with an import credits-based system like what Warren Buffet suggested. Reduce immigration. Engage in trade protectionism and nationalism like many other nations.

However, doing that would mean acknowledging that free market ideology is flawed and that Ricardo's notion of comparative advantage is conditional on the immobility of capital.

America will not be on top forever (we are already seeing signs of decline). It the coming years, the slow decline will reach equilibrium when we have declined enough and developing countries' economy have grown enough. The wage deflation we are seeing is a mere reflection of America integrating its economy into the world economy.

The problem is that we're merging our nation's economy and standard of living with that of billions of impoverished people. It isn't hard to do the math--global labor arbitrage will transform America into an impoverished third world country. Standards of living in the third world may increase slightly while the American standard of living will decrease precipitously as the 1% of the population that is rich becomes even wealthier.

The only solution is to reduce our exposure to global labor arbitrage by repudiating free trade ideology and engaging in outright trade protectionism.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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That is why they are emphasizing so much on hard science and math, so their next generation can compete on the technological front as opposed to just relying on manufacturing-based economy. That gravy train will run dry on manufacturing real soon for them.

We already have a large oversupply of Americans who are trained in math and science. How will further emphasizing it and producing more Americans in those fields change anything?

By the way, the Indians and Chinese have the exact same idea. Contrary to popular belief, innovation is not going to save the U.S. economy. Any new manufacturing jobs created in new fields will be done overseas and even the innovation work itself can be done less expensively. Innovation also tends to follow manufacturing since much innovation comes from engineers and other people who work directly with the manufacturing process ("necessity is the mother of invention"). If anything, this is the one thing trade protectionism cannot protect--the production of ideas and intellectual property.

Protectionism will not work. People are accustomed to a certain lifestyle where cheap prices of goods has contributed to a significant part of that. Would you want to pay $5k for a TV? Or $300 for a pair of Nike's?
What you are failing to realize is the invisible back-end costs of the cheap manufacturing goods. It's true that overseas manufacturing results in lower prices, but at what invisible back-end cost? If your wages decrease by 40% and the price of a manufactured good decreases by 30%, are you really better off? In addition to a 40% decrease in people's wages, what if taxes need to increase as a result of increased unemployment and underemployment? Was that 30% decrease in the price really worth it?

It isn't as easy as just pointing to low prices and then (in a "no-think" economist fashion) saying that Americans purchasing power has increased and that Americans are now better off. Instead you need to look at the big picture and consider other issues such as wages, increased poverty, and increased unemployment and underemployment.

You have to consider the invisible and conveniently-ignored back-end costs as well as the front-end prices.

The point is to adapt our economy so that we can shift our labor force from manufacturing to design as the primary economic engine.
Do you really think we can support a nation of 310+ million people with "design" and "innovation" as our economic engine? Do you think that Americans have some sort of a racial advantage or monopoly in those regards?

Manufacturing holds a less important significance in the economy after a country has been industrialized. We will never be able to compete on manufacturing and artificially forcing companies to hire here on these jobs will only drive them away.
If they want to sell goods and services in the U.S. they would have to produce them in the United States. How will that drive jobs away? If they move their manufacturing facilities and service centers to other nations they simply won't be able to use those facilities for servicing the U.S. market. Businesses might choose not to do business in the United States, but that would create a void for other businesses to fill. (If none of the existing TV manufacturers want to make TVs in the U.S. and if TVs could not be imported, then the market would be wide open for a new company to begin manufacturing them in the U.S.)

We need to improve our labor force's skills so that we can design CPUs, and let someone else manufacture it, which is what exactly Intel is doing. That way we keep our competitive advantage in technology design, and utilize other countries' competitive advantage in manufacturing so we can have these goods produced cheaply. This is the only win-win solution, provided that we can adapt our labor force to keep pace with this rapid changing world economy.
Why do you think that the Indians and Chinese won't want to design CPUs themselves? Do you think Americans have some sort of racial superiority over the Indians and Chinese in regards to electrical engineering knowledge and innovative ability?

What you are spouting off is just conventional bromides. It's what the "no think" free market dogmatists might say. Have you really thought deeply about these issues and asked hard questions?

What you say sounds good--it's touchy-feely and politically correct--but it doesn't have much substance to it. They aren't bad ideas, but they will do nothing to address the real fundamental problem of Global Labor Arbitrage.

Addressing the problem of Global Labor Arbitrage means implementing policies that are not touchy-feely, such as imposing an immigration moratorium, telling foreigners on H-1B and L-1 visas that they can no longer work in the United States and must go back home, and telling other nations that from now on they have to purchase our goods and services in equal amount in exchange for us purchasing their goods and services. (We don't want to sell them capital assets such as business ownership and land anymore to fund our purchase of short-term ephemeral goods.)
 
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Oct 30, 2004
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The elephant in the room is every increase in production efficiency is going to directly result in increases in unemployment over the long term, be it from outsourcing or not. More efficiency = less necessary resources by definition. Armchair economists love to say this just frees up resources for other production, but we can already outproduce our consumer demand, so what are these resources going to produce exactly?

I disagree that increased productive efficiency and advanced technology will result in mass unemployment and poverty. The reason it might look that way is because while we're enjoying technological advance, we're also suffering from global labor arbitrage. The benefits of technological advance aren't cycling back into our economy--they're going overseas and into the wallets of the wealthy.

The armchair economists are right in these regards. As it becomes less expensive to produce manufactured goods, human effort will be freed for work on other things. Perhaps people could afford more grandiose homes with better landscaping. Or perhaps the work week could be reduced to 20 hours per week (working less time for the same amount of goods and services = wealthier).
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Actually if you watch the (admittedly long) video that was posted in this thread you would find that most families spend less on just about everything then they did 30 years ago. The major exceptions are Housing, Healthcare, and Childcare. These 3 saw HUGE gains that over shadow all the reductions PLUS the increase of having a second income.

You should also add college education costs to that list. More and more people are going to college today and it is becoming increasingly expensive, leaving many people burdened with student loans.

Note that part of the increase in health care cost could be due to job loss as a result of jobs going overseas. Increased poverty means that those people who are employed end up footing the bill for the poor.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Polarization not found. We have the Republicans, who used to be center-right, now pushing far right. And we have the Democrats, who used to be center, now occupying the Republicans former spot on the center right.

You hear a lot of left wing talk with relation to the Democrats, but look at the Democrats in action. They're just as happy to give corporate welfare as the Republicans, promote the free trade religion just like the Republicans, and continue Republican wars. Unfortunately, the left wing really has no party to call their own so they take the lesser of two evils.

For all intents and purposes, when it comes to fundamental economic issues the Republicans and Democrats are the same. They might as well just be one single party. They both support unrestricted free trade and mass immigration.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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My friend just got back from china, he said 40 cents an hour is common. Do the math.

They also usually work 12+ hours a day, and 7 days a week.

...with little or no environmental and labor regulations.

Arguably the cleanliness of your air and water and your job security, job safety, and working conditions are also part of the compensation you receive for working.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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I respectfully disagree (that the middle class is being wiped out). The middle class may be shrinking, but "wiped out" is an exaggeration.

A more fair question is: what is the middle class? The middle class in the US still enjoys a very comfortable standard of living. If by wiping out the middle class you mean that a lot of people have to start making choices on spending (iphones, cable tv, going out to eat, etc), that's not a bad thing. I bought an Old Navy T-shirt 8 years ago for 5 bucks and I still wear it today.

We need a definition for what is "middle class". It might be something like this:

Being Middle Class means having the ability to:


  • own an at least 1800 ft house (eventually own, not perpetual home "loanership")
  • have 1 car for each grown adult (parent)
  • able to comfortably raise 2 children
  • have no significant concerns about health care costs
  • not be preoccupied with a fear of job loss
  • be comfortable in retirement after age 70.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
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Quick question here.

Why is everyone going off the assumption that services are not the way to grow and distribute wealth? Why is so many people I've seen so focused on manufacturing primarily?

Step back and think about the concept abstractly for a moment. Start simple. What is economics? Very simply glossed into to economics 101. The reason I am putting this bit here is because I think too many posters here have their heads wrapped around talking points, ideology, personal stakes, and maybe whatever agenda they are trying to push. As such, I beg forgiveness for the length of this post I am about to make, but I think it's warranted considering some of what I've read.



Definition - Economics is the social science that is concerned with the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.

Goods and services are listed in the definition. However, does it have to be primarily focused on one or the other or even both? Economics is societies way of making as many individuals that make up the society productive, able to contribute, and happy. Whether it was the old barter system of haggling how many chickens a cow was worth, or using money as basically IOU, the purpose of the system is that no one person can completely provide everything in life they possibly need and do it efficiently. Some people are inherently good or better at doing one thing that may be used or desired by someone else who has something they can do back. It may be a simple exchange, but in today's economy it usually is not.




The problem with any economy is determining value. What is anything really worth? An obvious answer is something that is needed or wanted by more people is worth more. Hence part of the foundation for our current economy. The laws of supply and demand. I won't go into text book details, but suffice it say, when it comes to the interaction of human beings in society, there is always a supply and a demand. Not every interaction is monetarily based or has assigned values, but every interaction between two humans is a subset of supply and demand. Just talking with someone else is taking away someone's supply of time.


The biggest problem with supply and demand is that it works best based on trust. That means there is a weakness to the supply and demand model in that it can be manipulated. If I have a supply of something I want to sell, but there is no demand, it is technically worthless. But if I can figure out how to drum up demand, then I increase it's value. If I then pretend the supply is less than what it is and can successfully do so while increasing demand, I can increase the value even more. This is what causes imbalances in the economy and economic system. Especially when others try to do the same thing with the same product. More and more creative ways are conjured to keep demand high and supply "low" to give the illusion of more value than something is really worth. This is were laws and regulation come into effect to prevent imbalances to a certain.

Anyhow, back to my original question. Why must the economy of a society be based on tangible products only? The point of a healthy economy isn't what the supply is, but that there is a supply of something and that it has a demand so things get exchanged. A perfectly healthy economy can subsist on services only.

I will state that people need and want "things" that are tangible goods. Demand for goods doesn't go down. It just changes over time of what goods are in demand. One day everyone wants a blue shirt. The next day green. This comes to the second hard point of dealing with tangible goods as a basis for an economy. Change. When people want blue shirts and someone makes them for the demand, all is gravy. If the demand changes to green and the supplier can switch easily enough from producing blue to green, all is still gravy. But if demand for shirts goes away and everyone wants spoons the next day... well the shirt maker is looking forward to a tough time if he can't convert. I know I'm being overly simplistic here, but the point I'm trying to make is manufacturing is not as adaptable or flexible as services. Not only that, the person that makes the worlds first Thingamabob to sell to the world needs to figure out how to sell it in the first place. Where is demand for a brand new product? How does it enter the economy? Basically, goods, while important to an economy can causes many ups and downs as demand and supplies fluctuate much more rapidly for them. Not only that, there is always someone out there looking to provide the same goods cheaper, better, and faster. Great in some ways and bad in others.

Intangibles are harder to give a more objective designation on value than goods at least. That is their failing. There are methods in place to help narrow down the value to related services though. Does it take more education? What is the time factor? How many others are willing to provide the same service? There are other problems with services in a supply and demand based economy, just as there are problems with tangible goods.

The point I was trying to make out of all of this is there is nothing inherently good or bad with having an economy centric on services, goods, or both. Demand drives all in the end. If Americans want to stay competitive with Chinese in a goods based economy, they will have to find a way to drive up demand for what they offer. Arbitrary regulation forcing American only goods or services does no one any good in the long run. Sure other countries are getting some money sent their way from goods and services we are buying from them. But if the problem is too much is going out and not enough is coming back from them, then we just need to find something they want to buy. Again, the economy in action. Oh by the way, many foreign countries pay America tons of cash for various things from authentic "American" clothing, to our music, to our movies, to using our military to help protect them.



Also, America does have a fairly healthy manufacturing side to it still. We make tons of desktop computer chips as an example. If you want America to be a manufacturing center of the world again, it is not going to be from making cheap lead painted action figures or spoons. It is going to be making very complex goods that other countries lack the skilled labor to produce.



Now back to the regular discussion about the shrinking middle class.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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The problem for the US isn't that it's in a Race to the Bottom, it's that so much of the rest of the world has had such a huge headstart...
 
Oct 16, 1999
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It's not practical. You have to actually produce things to have a healthy economy. There's no real production in a service-based economy, and thus no production demand. Education and training are the only two factors of production. That leaves a lot of extra, now useless resources sitting around. Plus it would rely entirely on consumer demand, exacerbating the problem we already have. We are going to turn into an economy with a very small, very wealthy investment class, a slightly larger educated service class working for the investment class, and a whole slew of poor people with nothing to do if we become a service-based economy. Hell, that's happening now.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
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  • own an at least 1800 ft house (eventually own, not perpetual home "loanership")
  • have 1 car for each grown adult (parent)
  • able to comfortably raise 2 children
  • have no significant concerns about health care costs
  • not be preoccupied with a fear of job loss
  • be comfortable in retirement after age 70.

1) 1800 sqft is HUGE. Most people don't need that much living space.
2) Having a car isn't a huge expense unless one swaps car every few years
3) Agreed, but to what kind of "standard of living"?
4) Agreed
5) Agreed
6) Agreed

I have known middle class people who are frugal and don't waste their money, and also middle class people who piss their money away on stupid crap like buying a new car every few years. Even without the things you mentioned, the standard of living in the US is still very, very high compared to many other places...
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
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1) 1800 sqft is HUGE. Most people don't need that much living space.
2) Having a car isn't a huge expense unless one swaps car every few years
3) Agreed, but to what kind of "standard of living"?
4) Agreed
5) Agreed
6) Agreed

I have known middle class people who are frugal and don't waste their money, and also middle class people who piss their money away on stupid crap like buying a new car every few years. Even without the things you mentioned, the standard of living in the US is still very, very high compared to many other places...

1800 square feet is quite modest for an American home in the suburbs for an established American couple. Its not a starter home, but its hardly extravagent or a McMansion.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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Maybe I should get back into machining, with the lack of skilled labor out there I could make a killing.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
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ostif.org
Quick question here.

*snip*



Definition - Economics is the social science that is concerned with the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.

*huge snip*

You missed on the very definition of economics, the rest doesn't even need to be read.

Economics is the science of studying how POPULATIONS interact with LIMITED RESOURCES.

You are talking about the statistical crap where someone looks at a chart and goes "hrmm i think it works this way". Which is complete bullshit and where a lot of the garbage that pours out of faux-economists mouths comes from.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
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You missed on the very definition of economics, the rest doesn't even need to be read.

Economics is the science of studying how POPULATIONS interact with LIMITED RESOURCES.

You are talking about the statistical crap where someone looks at a chart and goes "hrmm i think it works this way". Which is complete bullshit and where a lot of the garbage that pours out of faux-economists mouths comes from.

Uhh no. First off, there is no such thing as limited resource(s). A resource may be limited, but the sum of all resources is not. As such, economy is about supply and demand. Take anything you think is a limited resource. Oil for example. Sure it has a limit, but once reached what happens? Does the human race just stop. We all give up and die because we ran out of oil? No money changes hands, the world stops turning, time itself just stops? No.

We find another resource, then another, and then another. We change and adapt our "demands" for the environment we find ourselves in.


Anyway, your definition "Economics is the science of studying how POPULATIONS interact with LIMITED RESOURCES" doesn't make much sense if you are describing flies in a bag with food. Flies are the population. Food is the limited resource. How exactly is watching them eventually die economics? Sorry to be trite there, but just pointing out that your definition isn't right.

And I didn't bring any statistics up. I stated what is basic economics. Supply and demand. I have a surplus something someone else wants, and they have a surplus something I want. We work out how we both obtain the surplus from the other. That's basic economics.


I was pointing that out because it seemed like everyone was going off some faux-economics BS as you put it. I was also making the post because I see posts like this made by Gonad.

Gonad said:
It's not practical. You have to actually produce things to have a healthy economy. There's no real production in a service-based economy, and thus no production demand. Education and training are the only two factors of production. That leaves a lot of extra, now useless resources sitting around. Plus it would rely entirely on consumer demand, exacerbating the problem we already have. We are going to turn into an economy with a very small, very wealthy investment class, a slightly larger educated service class working for the investment class, and a whole slew of poor people with nothing to do if we become a service-based economy. Hell, that's happening now.

He is emphatically stating that an economy as a whole can not prosper on services. He makes his statement based on anecdotes and assumptions. I am merely asking why people keep presenting this assumption. Then goes into strawman tactics of stating that such an economy only creates classes in society with no evidence to support this claim. Germany is primarily a service based economy and they are doing quite well last time I checked, if you don't count the world cup finish.

Yes, there is no way to get totally away from producing tangible goods. I am not saying that or that we should. I am saying that just because our economy shifts from say (random percentage here for theoretical impact) of 60% good productions with 40% services to 60% service and 40% goods, how exactly would that cause the collapse of the economy? I'm saying it wouldn't and there are other underlying factors that cause problems that have more to due with people artificially messing with the balance of supply versus demand. Saying otherwise is a knee-jerk reaction to a correlation and not the causation. Just because we are growing more primarily service economy and now are in a recession does not mean the recession was caused by our economy being more service related.