The U.S. Middle Class Is Being Wiped Out

[Craig234]

Trickle Down Economic Policies FTL

Yes, the phrase 'trickle-down' is unfortunately one of the great bits of propaganda this generation, misleading people to support the loss of their own money.

 

[PeshakJang]

Yes, the phrase 'trickle-down' is unfortunately one of the great bits of propaganda this generation, misleading people to support the loss of their own money.

Almost as much as "stimulus spending"

 

[Corn]

LOL... that's because DFEVX lost like 75% in 2008. If you held DFEVX from 1/1/08 to today, you still massively massively in the red.

Lefty logic to the rescue! Pick an arbitrary point in time and claim, "SEE, you're massively in the red." Of course, I didn't invest in DFEVX on 1/08, I've had money in there over 7 years. I'm nowhere near red, much less "massively" in the red.

http://quote.morningstar.com/fund/f.aspx?t=DFEVXhttp://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=MUTF:DFEVX

 

[MJinZ]

Lefty logic to the rescue! Pick an arbitrary point in time and claim, "SEE, you're massively in the red." Of course, I didn't invest in DFEVX on 1/08, I've had money in there over 7 years. I'm nowhere near red, much less "massively" in the red.

http://quote.morningstar.com/fund/f.aspx?t=DFEVX

You're a retard if you think anything has recovered... PERIOD.

 

[MJinZ]

Yes, the phrase 'trickle-down' is unfortunately one of the great bits of propaganda this generation, misleading people to support the loss of their own money.

The problem is that it trickles down into Indian tech support and other outsourced labor.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yes, the phrase 'trickle-down' is unfortunately one of the great bits of propaganda this generation, misleading people to support the loss of their own money.

The only "trickledown" that's occurred is the part where they pissed down our leg, told us it was raining. The effectiveness of the propaganda is staggering, denial on the Right utterly profound, despite the obvious and overwhelming evidence.

In 2009, AGI of the top 1% was roughly twice that of the bottom 50% combined, a complete reversal of the situation in 1980, the year Saint Ronnie was elected, the year America first started to see tubesteak as a delicacy...

 

[PrinceofWands]

I just find that hard to believe. I'm 29, don't make much money, and yet still have $14k in my 401k already. My wife has more than that.

Only 3 members of my family have ANY retirement whatsoever, and only 3 of my friends. It's not hard to believe at all.

 

[MJinZ]

Only 3 members of my family have ANY retirement whatsoever, and only 3 of my friends. It's not hard to believe at all.

I have a couple grand in my 401K and I haven't contributed a dime to it (all employer)

 

[Corn]

You're a retard if you think anything has recovered... PERIOD.

LOL. Considering the fact that the balance in my 401k is significantly higher today (minus my payroll deposits) than it was before the bust in October 2008, mine's recovered quite nicely. The fact that you've got at most a couple thousand in your 401k and you don't contribute further to it makes you the retard while I'll be comfortable in my retirement. Good luck!

 

[SammyJr]

i agree but how can you compete in the global market when their standard of living is so much lower?

1. Get rid of the free trade religion. Jesus isn't going to come down and kill you because you don't worship at the altar of free trade.
2. Start tarriffing imported goods to make them production competitive with American goods so that foreign countries aren't simply competing on how much industrial waste they can dump into rivers and how many workers they can work to death.
3. Mandate that the Government has to buy 100% Made in USA. If the product isn't made here, then the Government needs to issue loans and startup capital so that the product can be made here.
4. Increase the tax on high compensations so there is less incentive to send jobs overseas so the CEO can get a bonus.
5. Universal health care, independent of employers. Foreign countries either have national health care or no health care. Our employer based private gouging system is harmful to American companies and workers.

That would be a good start.

 

[SammyJr]

You're not average - most Americans are WAY stupider, and think that by ignoring it, the problem will go away! I've got a relative in his mid-40's with essentially NOTHING saved for retirement, but enough money for non-essentials like football tickets and what not. Who knows what he'll do in 20 years, but I'm sure he'll get a gov't bailout.

With the way the wealthy are raping this country, he's probably smart to enjoy it now. Given our track record, a 401K probably won't be worth anything when he retires anyway. And with Americans so desperate to please their wealthy masters, it won't be long before SS is gone and a 401K is the only option. Either way, he'll have shit so he might as well enjoy the game.

 

[BoberFett]

Trickle-Down: The failed theory that if we send enough money to Washington D.C., some of it will make its way back to those that they took it from to begin with.

 

[SammyJr]

Trickle-Down: The failed theory that if we send enough money to Washington D.C., some of it will make its way back to those that they took it from to begin with.

I think you're confused.

 

[Zebo]

I have a couple grand in my 401K and I haven't contributed a dime to it (all employer)

What are you doing with your share? ...Hopefully buying gold, land or local income producing property. Nothing wrong with not believing in stock market scheme (don't you love how they even 'give' 'you' a tax deferment to invest in Wall Street but you can't save for a Subway franchise on tax defered dollars) Anyway - unfortunatly many just piss it away on vacations or liabilities like cars boats instead.

 

[Zebo]

1. Get rid of the free trade religion. Jesus isn't going to come down and kill you because you don't worship at the altar of free trade.
2. Start tarriffing imported goods to make them production competitive with American goods so that foreign countries aren't simply competing on how much industrial waste they can dump into rivers and how many workers they can work to death.
3. Mandate that the Government has to buy 100% Made in USA. If the product isn't made here, then the Government needs to issue loans and startup capital so that the product can be made here.
4. Increase the tax on high compensations so there is less incentive to send jobs overseas so the CEO can get a bonus.
5. Universal health care, independent of employers. Foreign countries either have national health care or no health care. Our employer based private gouging system is harmful to American companies and workers.

That would be a good start.

Sensible stuff like this will never fly. If HC debate, among others, should have taught you one thing that's The Golden Rule..that those with Gold make rules in this country.

 

[sandorski]

Almost as much as "stimulus spending"

incorrect

 

[Moonbeam]

We have slowly raised the temperature in the pot and our live frogs are almost done.

 

[SammyJr]

Sensible stuff like this will never fly. If HC debate, among others, should have taught you one thing that's The Golden Rule..that those with Gold make rules in this country.

I completely agree. Our Democracy has been taken over by the Wealthy so no one else has any power.

 

[MJinZ]

What are you doing with your share? ...Hopefully buying gold, land or local income producing property. Nothing wrong with not believing in stock market scheme (don't you love how they even 'give' 'you' a tax deferment to invest in Wall Street but you can't save for a Subway franchise on tax defered dollars) Anyway - unfortunatly many just piss it away on vacations or liabilities like cars boats instead.

Pretty sure I can't touch it for another 40 something years anyway.

Considering that's a lifetime away, I don't really care about it. My actual savings/asset should be far more significant than anything in a retirement account by then.

 

[PeshakJang]

you are absolutely correct

I'm glad you finally agree with something

 

[Imdmn04]

We just need to accept the fact that America no longer provides the standard of living it once did (not counting technological advances) in today's world economy.

Having a 2000sq ft house, 2 cars might seem like your typical American middle class family, but it is considered luxury in almost everywhere else in the world, including other first world countries in Europe.

You are not entitled to a livable wage, you have to earn it. It used to be that a UAW worker in the 60s could earn a livable wage for the entire family, but that is not the case anymore. The white collar workers are not immune either, software development jobs are going overseas just the same. If you don't adapt your skills quickly in the fast-changing world economy, you become obsolete. It sounds cruel, but it is the way it works. The rest of the world is catching up fast, and we can't compete in the global stage unless we adapt.

The first step is to stop whining about job losses and actually improve our labor force skills so that we are competitive in the world labor market. Companies are not going to pay an American worker $30/hr when they can pay $5/hr elsewhere. We definitely can't compete on price because our standards of living expectation is much higher, but we can try to compete on labor skills. Thus, we need to further educate ourselves first. China and India already sees this, there is a reason they turn out so many engineers and scientists for the next generation. Your economy can only depend on low-cost manufacturing for so long.

America will not be on top forever (we are already seeing signs of decline). It the coming years, the slow decline will reach equilibrium when we have declined enough and developing countries' economy have grown enough. The wage deflation we are seeing is a mere reflection of America integrating its economy into the world economy.

 

[Acanthus]

We just need to accept the fact that America no longer provides the standard of living it once did (not counting technological advances) in today's world economy.

Having a 2000sq ft house, 2 cars might seem like your typical American middle class family, but it is considered luxury in almost everywhere else in the world, including other first world countries in Europe.

You are not entitled to a livable wage, you have to earn it. It used to be that a UAW worker in the 60s could earn a livable wage for the entire family, but that is not the case anymore. The white collar workers are not immune either, software development jobs are going overseas just the same. If you don't adapt your skills quickly in the fast-changing world economy, you become obsolete. It sounds cruel, but it is the way it works. The rest of the world is catching up fast, and we can't compete in the global stage unless we adapt.

The first step is to stop whining about job losses and actually improve our labor force skills so that we are competitive in the world labor market. Companies are not going to pay an American worker $30/hr when they can pay $5/hr elsewhere. We definitely can't compete on price because our standards of living expectation is much higher, but we can try to compete on labor skills. Thus, we need to further educate ourselves first. China and India already sees this, there is a reason they turn out so many engineers and scientists for the next generation. Your economy can only depend on low-cost manufacturing for so long.

America will not be on top forever (we are already seeing signs of decline). It the coming years, the slow decline will reach equilibrium when we have declined enough and developing countries' economy have grown enough. The wage deflation we are seeing is a mere reflection of America integrating its economy into the world economy.

It is a race to the bottom. Globalization is the worst thing that could happen to the United States.

China has a near unlimited labor supply willing to work for 1/20th our national minimum wage. Vietnam and Sub-Saharan African countries are even less.

Working people for slave wages will not improve things there, nor will it ever increase the exports of the U.S. because slaves can't afford our high-tech goods and we can't give them financing.

The only real solution is to end "free trade" and enforce an international minimum wage standard. The penalty for not meeting that standard is a tariff that drives the price of whatever good it is up to the prevailing price of the US made product.

Protectionism works when you are dealing with slave wages.

 

[dmcowen674]

It is a race to the bottom.

Globalization is the worst thing that could happen to the United States.

I disagree

Being at the bottom is the best thing because then your hard earned money won't go to subsidizing other countries anymore.

 

[Imdmn04]

It is a race to the bottom. Globalization is the worst thing that could happen to the United States.

China has a near unlimited labor supply willing to work for 1/20th our national minimum wage. Vietnam and Sub-Saharan African countries are even less.

Working people for slave wages will not improve things there, nor will it ever increase the exports of the U.S. because slaves can't afford our high-tech goods and we can't give them financing.

The only real solution is to end "free trade" and enforce an international minimum wage standard. The penalty for not meeting that standard is a tariff that drives the price of whatever good it is up to the prevailing price of the US made product.

Protectionism works when you are dealing with slave wages.

As far as China goes, their labor is gradually getting more expensive as people are buying middle class items such as cars (GM is doing real good in China). Eventually their labor force will not be able to compete as well, we will ship iPhone manufacturing to Africa. That is why they are emphasizing so much on hard science and math, so their next generation can compete on the technological front as opposed to just relying on manufacturing-based economy. That gravy train will run dry on manufacturing real soon for them.

Protectionism will not work. People are accustomed to a certain lifestyle where cheap prices of goods has contributed to a significant part of that. Would you want to pay $5k for a TV? Or $300 for a pair of Nike's?

The point is to adapt our economy so that we can shift our labor force from manufacturing to design as the primary economic engine. Manufacturing holds a less important significance in the economy after a country has been industrialized. We will never be able to compete on manufacturing and artificially forcing companies to hire here on these jobs will only drive them away. We need to improve our labor force's skills so that we can design CPUs, and let someone else manufacture it, which is what exactly Intel is doing. That way we keep our competitive advantage in technology design, and utilize other countries' competitive advantage in manufacturing so we can have these goods produced cheaply. This is the only win-win solution, provided that we can adapt our labor force to keep pace with this rapid changing world economy.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Design is great and all, but you can't base an entire economy on it, or any services, because it's simply not resource intensive enough. We have to shift back from a consumption driven economy and use the resources (material and labor) we have here. The elephant in the room is every increase in production efficiency is going to directly result in increases in unemployment over the long term, be it from outsourcing or not. More efficiency = less necessary resources by definition. Armchair economists love to say this just frees up resources for other production, but we can already outproduce our consumer demand, so what are these resources going to produce exactly? We ran into this problem before with the industrial revolution, and we put off the inevitable by moving from a needs based economy to a wants based one. But that card is played, consumers have maxed their credit and filled their houses full of junk. We have to take steps (ie: protectionism, socialism, or whatever you want to call it) to ensure we continue to both innovate and produce domestically or this country will continue to sink.