The Truth about the McDonald's Hot Coffee Lawsuit

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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,509
20,136
146
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: Amused


No but it will be your fault if I bust my ass on a wet floor in you're restaurant and you dont have a sign up, you're honor, I rest my case. :)

Um, again. Coffee is, and always has been an obvious risk. To add to that, there have been warning on hot cups for as long as I have been alive.

You have nothing to rest. You never had a case.

So, prove your point and mop your floor without a sign. You crack me up, you say the old lady is at fault but you protect your customers with a sign.

Wet floor/ obvious risk.....you sold out out beliefs to protect your customers.

A wet floor is not an obvious risk.

*Are all floors ALWAYS wet? No.

*Is good hot coffee ALWAYS served hot enough to burn? Yes

*Is the water on the floor readily apparent? Not always, it depends on the lighting.

*Is the heat of the coffee readily apparent? Of course.

The only thing cracking you up is your failed logic.

Its all about the degree

Do the floors have wax, are they slippery when wet, how slippery

Is the coffee hot, how hot, do they cause burns, do they cause more burns than other coffee?

You are black and white, the world is gray, thats why you cant comprehend any difference here.

No, I'm being reasonable and now you're splitting absurd, ridiculous hairs in a failing attempt to hold up your silly comparison.

Good hot coffee is ALWAYS held at temps hot enough to burn.

Floors are not always wet.

One is an obvious risk, the other is not.

And this is moot since coffee cups now, and even when Stella burned herself had warnings on them.

No it mute because stella cashed her check and their is a record that she won this case.

[/quote]

LOL. "Mute?" Wow... :roll:

As I said before, her case is an aberration cased by inept defense lawyers. Dozens and dozens of similar cases were filed after her case and all lost.
 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
4,868
1
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: Amused


No but it will be your fault if I bust my ass on a wet floor in you're restaurant and you dont have a sign up, you're honor, I rest my case. :)

Um, again. Coffee is, and always has been an obvious risk. To add to that, there have been warning on hot cups for as long as I have been alive.

You have nothing to rest. You never had a case.

So, prove your point and mop your floor without a sign. You crack me up, you say the old lady is at fault but you protect your customers with a sign.

Wet floor/ obvious risk.....you sold out out beliefs to protect your customers.

A wet floor is not an obvious risk.

*Are all floors ALWAYS wet? No.

*Is good hot coffee ALWAYS served hot enough to burn? Yes

*Is the water on the floor readily apparent? Not always, it depends on the lighting.

*Is the heat of the coffee readily apparent? Of course.

The only thing cracking you up is your failed logic.

Its all about the degree

Do the floors have wax, are they slippery when wet, how slippery

Is the coffee hot, how hot, do they cause burns, do they cause more burns than other coffee?

You are black and white, the world is gray, thats why you cant comprehend any difference here.

No, I'm being reasonable and now you're splitting absurd, ridiculous hairs in a failing attempt to hold up your silly comparison.

Good hot coffee is ALWAYS held at temps hot enough to burn.

Floors are not always wet.

One is an obvious risk, the other is not.

And this is moot since coffee cups now, and even when Stella burned herself had warnings on them.

No it mute because stella cashed her check and their is a record that she won this case.

LOL. "Mute?" Wow... :roll:

As I said before, her case is an aberration cased by inept defense lawyers. Dozens and dozens of similar cases were filed after her case and all lost.[/quote]


Maybe the cases since have had ****** attorneys and that is why they lost, well using your logic I guess I can use this arguement to advance my case, whether its valid or
not
.

I notice you cherry pick what arguements you respond to, maybe if you address them all you would see that blaming this on improper defense is BS.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,509
20,136
146
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: Amused


No but it will be your fault if I bust my ass on a wet floor in you're restaurant and you dont have a sign up, you're honor, I rest my case. :)

Um, again. Coffee is, and always has been an obvious risk. To add to that, there have been warning on hot cups for as long as I have been alive.

You have nothing to rest. You never had a case.

So, prove your point and mop your floor without a sign. You crack me up, you say the old lady is at fault but you protect your customers with a sign.

Wet floor/ obvious risk.....you sold out out beliefs to protect your customers.

A wet floor is not an obvious risk.

*Are all floors ALWAYS wet? No.

*Is good hot coffee ALWAYS served hot enough to burn? Yes

*Is the water on the floor readily apparent? Not always, it depends on the lighting.

*Is the heat of the coffee readily apparent? Of course.

The only thing cracking you up is your failed logic.

Its all about the degree

Do the floors have wax, are they slippery when wet, how slippery

Is the coffee hot, how hot, do they cause burns, do they cause more burns than other coffee?

You are black and white, the world is gray, thats why you cant comprehend any difference here.

No, I'm being reasonable and now you're splitting absurd, ridiculous hairs in a failing attempt to hold up your silly comparison.

Good hot coffee is ALWAYS held at temps hot enough to burn.

Floors are not always wet.

One is an obvious risk, the other is not.

And this is moot since coffee cups now, and even when Stella burned herself had warnings on them.

No it mute because stella cashed her check and their is a record that she won this case.

LOL. "Mute?" Wow... :roll:

As I said before, her case is an aberration cased by inept defense lawyers. Dozens and dozens of similar cases were filed after her case and all lost.


Maybe the cases since have had ****** attorneys and that is why they lost, well using your logic I guess I can use this arguement to advance my case, whether its valid or
not
.

I notice you cherry pick what arguements you respond to, maybe if you address them all you would see that blaming this on improper defense is BS.
[/quote]

I've responded to every argument. The reason her case won, and ALL others like it have lost is because the defense was inept. Again, her case is the aberration here.

And yet again, you're wrong. The law firm that represented Stella pressed MANY similar self inflicted coffee burn cases after hers, and lost all of them.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,953
576
126
The "truth"...from a personal injury law firm.

Here are the "real" facts:

McDonald's coffee was actually well within brewing, holding, and serving temperatures as set-forth and recommended by the prestigious American National Standards Institute (ANSI), the Coffee Specialty Association of America, and the National Coffee Association. It was merely 'higher' than the average temperatures found among other establishments in the area (according to the plaintiff's attorney, which the defense never challenged).

This is why McDonald's coffee is liked so well by so many and McDonald's sells more coffee than any other fast food chain, precisely because McDonald's serves it hotter than everyone else (though still well within industry standard and recommended temps).

The vast overwhelming majority of burn reports that McDonald's recieved were minor injuries that did not require medical attention. Of the cases that McDonald's settled or offered a settlement, either one of its employees was implicated in causing or contributing to the spill or the container failed. i.e. these were legitimate product liability or employee negligence lawsuits, the customer didn't negligently dump the coffee straight into their own lap

The case would NEVER have survived an appeal. see: McMahon v. Bunn-O-Matic Corp., 150 F.3d 651 1998 (virtually identical circumstances)

This case epitomizes the frivolous lawsuit.
American National Standards Institute/Association of Household Appliance Manufacturers Joint Standard CM-1-1986, Section 5.2.1 provides:

On completion of the brewing cycle and within a 2 minute interval, the beverage temperature in the dispensing vessel of the coffee maker while stirring should be between the limits of 170 degrees F and 205 degrees F (77 degrees C and 96 degrees C).

The upper finished brew temperature limit assures that the coffee does not reach the boiling point which can affect the taste and aroma. The lower temperature limit assures generally acceptable drinking temperature when pouring into a cold cup, adding cream, sugar and spoon.

Standard 5.2.3.2 adds, for any coffee maker that "incorporates means to maintain beverage temperature on completion of a brewing cycle": With the appliance containing maximum rated cup capacity of liquid, basket and pump removed (if present), allow to stand while still energized...for a period of 1 hour at which time the beverage temperature in the appliance should not be lower than 170 degrees F (76.7 degrees C).
McDonald's Callousness Was Real Issue, Jurors Say, In Case of Burned Woman

How Hot Do You Like It?

by Andrea Gerlin
Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal
September 1, 1994
The Wall Street Journal

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. - When a law firm here found itself defending McDonald's Corp. in a suit last year that claimed the company served dangerously hot coffee, it hired a law student to take temperatures at other local restaurants for comparison.

After dutifully slipping a thermometer into steaming cups and mugs all over the city, Danny Jarrett found that none came closer than about 20 degrees to the temperature at which McDonald's coffee is poured, about 180 degrees.

It should have been a warning.

But McDonald's lawyers went on to dismiss several opportunities to settle out of court, apparently convinced that no jury would punish a company for serving coffee the way customers like it. After all, its coffee's temperature helps explain why McDonald's sells a billion cups a year.

But now - days after a jury here awarded $2.9 million to an 81-year-old woman scalded by McDonald's coffee - some observers say the defense was naïve. "I drink McDonald's coffee because it's hot, the hottest coffee around," says Robert Gregg, a Dallas defense attorney who consumes it during morning drives to the office. "But I've predicted for years that someone's going to win a suit, because I've spilled it on myself. And unlike the coffee I make at home, it's really hot. I mean, man, it hurts."

McDonald's, known for its fastidious control over franchisees, requires that its coffee be prepared at very high temperatures, based on recommendations of coffee consultants and industry groups that say hot temperatures are necessary to fully extract the flavor during brewing.

Before trial, McDonald's gave the opposing lawyer its operations and training manual, which says its coffee must be brewed at 195 to 205 degrees and held at 180 to 190 degrees for optimal taste. Sine the verdict, McDonald's has declined to offer any comment, as have their attorneys. It is unclear if the company, whose coffee cups warn drinkers that the contents are hot, plans to change its preparation procedures.

Coffee temperature is suddenly a hot topic in the industry. The Specialty Coffee Association of America has put coffee safety on the agenda of its quarterly board meeting this month. And a spokesman for Dunkin' Donuts Inc., which sells about 500 million cups of coffee a year, says the company is looking at the verdict to see if it needs to make any changes to the way it makes coffee.

Others call it a tempest in a coffeepot. A spokesman for the National Coffee Association says McDonald's coffee conforms to industry temperature standards. And a spokesman for Mr. Coffee Inc., the coffee-machine maker, says that if customer complaints are any indication, industry settings may be too low - some customers like it hotter. A spokeswoman for Starbucks Coffee Co. adds, "Coffee is traditionally a hot beverage and is served hot and I would hope that this is an isolated incident."

Coffee connoisseur William McAlpin, an importer and wholesaler in Bar Harbor, Maine, who owns a coffee plantation in Costa Rica, says 175 degrees is "probably the optimum temperature, because that's when aromatics are being released. Once the aromas get in your palate, that is a large part of what makes the coffee a pleasure to drink."

Public opinion is squarely on the side of McDonald's. Polls have shown a large majority of Americans - including many who typically support the little guy - to be outraged at the verdict. And radio talk-show hosts around the country have lambasted the plaintiff, her attorneys and the jurors on air. Declining to be interviewed for this story, one juror explained that he already had received angry calls from citizens around the country.

It's a reaction that many of the jurors could have understood - before they heard the evidence. At the beginning of the trial, jury foreman Jerry Goens says he "wasn't convinced as to why I needed to be there to settle a coffee spill."

At that point, Mr. Goens and the other jurors knew only the basic facts: that two years earlier, Stella Liebeck had bought a 49-cent cup of coffee at the drive-in window of an Albuquerque McDonald's, and while removing the lid to add cream and sugar had spilled it, causing third-degree burns of the groin, inner thighs and buttocks. Her suit, filed in state court in Albuquerque, claimed the coffee was "defective" because it was so hot.

What the jury didn't realize initially was the severity of her burns. Told during the trial of Mrs. Liebeck's seven days in the hospital and her skin grafts, and shown gruesome photographs, jurors began taking the matter more seriously. "It made me come home and tell my wife and daughters don't drink coffee in the car, at least not hot," says juror Jack Elliott.

Even more eye-opening was the revelation that McDonald's had seen such injuries many times before. Company documents showed that in the past decade McDonald's had received at least 700 reports of coffee burns ranging from mild to third degree, and had settled claims arising from scalding injuries for more than $500,000.

Some observers wonder why McDonald's, after years of settling coffee-burn cases, chose to take this one to trial. After all, the plaintiff was a sympathetic figure - an articulate, 81-year-old former department store clerk who said under oath that she had never filed suit before. In fact, she said, she never would have filed this one if McDonald's hadn't dismissed her requests for compensation for pain and medical bills with an offer of $800.

Then there was the matter of Mrs. Liebeck's attorney. While recuperating from her injuries in the Santa Fe home of her daughter, Mrs. Liebeck happened to meet a pair of Texas transplants familiar with a Houston attorney who had handled a 1986 hot-coffee lawsuit against McDonald's. His name was Reed Morgan, and ever since he had deeply believed that McDonald's coffee is too hot.

For that case, involving a Houston woman with third-degree burns, Mr. Morgan had the temperature of coffee taken at 18 restaurants such as Dairy Queen, Wendy's and Dunkin' Donuts, and at 20 McDonald's restaurants. McDonald's, his investigator found, accounted for nine of the 12 hottest readings. Also for that case, Mr. Morgan deposed Christopher Appleton, a McDonald's quality assurance manager, who said "he was aware of this risk?and had no plans to turn down the heat," according to Mr. Morgan. McDonald's settled that case for $27,500.

Now, plotting Mrs. Liebeck's case, Mr. Morgan planned to introduce photographs of his previous client's injuries and those of a California woman who suffered second- and third-degree burns after a McDonald's employee spilled hot coffee into her vehicle in 1990, a case that was settled out of court for $230,000.

Tracy McGee of Rodey, Dickason, Sloan, Akin & Robb, the lawyers for McDonald's, strenuously objected. "First-person accounts by sundry women whose nether regions have been scorched by McDonald's coffee might well be worthy of Oprah," she wrote in a motion to state court Judge Robert Scott. "But they have no place in a court of law." Judge Scott did not allow the photographs nor the women's testimony into evidence, but said Mr. Morgan could mention the cases.

As the trial date approached, McDonald's declined to settle. At one point, Mr. Morgan says he offered to drop the case for $300,000, and was willing to accept half that amount.

But McDonald's didn't bite.

Only days before the trial, Judge Scott ordered both sides to attend a mediation session. The mediator, a retired judge, recommended that McDonald's settle for $225,000, saying a jury would be likely to award that amount. The company didn't follow his recommendation.

Instead, McDonald's continued denying any liability for Mrs. Liebeck's burns. The company suggested that she may have contributed to her injuries by holding the cup between her legs and not removing her clothing immediately. And it also argued that "Mrs. Liebeck's age may have caused her injuries to have been worse than they might have been in a younger individual," since older skin is thinner and more vulnerable to injury.

The trial lasted seven sometimes mind-numbing days. Experts dueled over the temperature at which coffee causes burns. A scientist testifying for McDonald's argued that any coffee hotter than 130 degrees could produce third-degree burns, so it didn't matter whether Mc Donald's coffee was hotter. But a doctor testifying on behalf of Mrs. Liebeck argued that lowering the serving temperature to about 160 degrees could make a big difference, because it takes less than three seconds to produce a third-degree burn at 190 degrees, about 12 to 15 seconds at 180 degrees and about 20 seconds at 160 degrees.

The testimony of Mr. Appleton, the McDonald's executive, didn't help the company, jurors said later. He testified that McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious burns, but hadn't consulted burn experts about it. He also testified that McDonald's had decided not to warn customers about the possibility of severe burns, even though most people wouldn't think it possible. Finally, he testified that McDonald's didn't intend to change any of its coffee policies or procedures, saying, "There are more serious dangers in restaurants."

Mr. Elliott, the juror, says he began to realize that the case was about "callous disregard for the safety of the people."

Next for the defense came P. Robert Knaff, a human-factors engineer who earned $15,000 in fees from the case and who, several jurors said later, didn't help McDonald's either. Dr. Knaff told the jury that hot-coffee burns were statistically insignificant when compared to the billion cups of coffee McDonald's sells annually.

To jurors, Dr. Knaff seemed to be saying that the graphic photos they had seen of Mrs. Liebeck's burns didn't matter because they were rare. "There was a person behind every number and I don't think the corporation was attaching enough importance to that," says juror Betty Farnham.
When the panel reached the jury room, it swiftly arrived at the conclusion that McDonald's was liable. "The facts were so overwhelmingly against the company," says Ms. Farnham. "They were not taking care of their consumers."

Then the six men and six women decided on compensatory damages of $200,000, which they reduced to $160,000 after determining that 20% of the fault belonged with Mrs. Liebeck for spilling the coffee.

The jury then found that McDonald's had engaged in willful, reckless, malicious or wanton conduct, the basis for punitive damages. Mr. Morgan had suggested penalizing McDonald's the equivalent of one to two days of companywide coffee sales, which he estimated at $1.35 million a day. During the four-hour deliberation, a few jurors unsuccessfully argued for as much as $9.6 million in punitive damages. But in the end, the jury settled on $2.7 million.

McDonald's has since asked the judge for a new trial. Judge Scott has asked both sides to meet with a mediator to discuss settling the case before he rules on McDonald's request. The judge also has the authority to disregard the jury's finding or decrease the amount of damages.

One day after the verdict, a local reporter tested the coffee at the McDonald's that had served Mrs. Liebeck and found it to be a comparatively cool 158 degrees. But industry officials say they doubt that this signals any companywide change. After all, in a series of focus groups last year, customers who buy McDonald's coffee at least weekly say that "morning coffee has minimal taste requirements, but must be hot," to the point of steaming.
 

6000SUX

Golden Member
May 8, 2005
1,504
0
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
The case would NEVER have survived an appeal. see: McMahon v. Bunn-O-Matic Corp., 150 F.3d 651 1998 (virtually identical circumstances)

You don't know much about how the law works. The Bunn-O-Matic case is from the Seventh Circuit. The Liebeck case is from New Mexico, which isn't even in the same federal circuit.

This case epitomizes the frivolous lawsuit.
American National Standards Institute/Association of Household Appliance Manufacturers Joint Standard CM-1-1986, Section 5.2.1 provides:

On completion of the brewing cycle and within a 2 minute interval, the beverage temperature in the dispensing vessel of the coffee maker while stirring should be between the limits of 170 degrees F and 205 degrees F (77 degrees C and 96 degrees C).

The upper finished brew temperature limit assures that the coffee does not reach the boiling point which can affect the taste and aroma. The lower temperature limit assures generally acceptable drinking temperature when pouring into a cold cup, adding cream, sugar and spoon.

Standard 5.2.3.2 adds, for any coffee maker that "incorporates means to maintain beverage temperature on completion of a brewing cycle": With the appliance containing maximum rated cup capacity of liquid, basket and pump removed (if present), allow to stand while still energized...for a period of 1 hour at which time the beverage temperature in the appliance should not be lower than 170 degrees F (76.7 degrees C).

Nope, it does not. Even these standards you've posted (which really don't have much to do with how hot a beverage should be served by McDonald's to its customers in cars) note that they are intended to ensure an acceptable drinking temperature in the face of reductions-- which means that they can result in unacceptable drinking temperature in the face of lesser or no reduction.

Amused is fulla crap. He doesn't list the dozens of cases he's referring to brought by the same law firm, fails to realize that other cases have been settled (note that before Liebeck McDonald's settled others for over $500,000), doesn't know one whit about the law, and when his face is rubbed in his own stupidity, avoids the issue by saying he's actually right. BTW, cases are by no means absolutely unanimous on whether the general knowledge that coffee is hot means that a restaurant is under no duty to sell it at a safe temperature. :roll:

This is one of those things where the knee-jerk reaction is predictably espoused here, even by those with predictably high post counts.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,509
20,136
146
Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Originally posted by: tcsenter
The case would NEVER have survived an appeal. see: McMahon v. Bunn-O-Matic Corp., 150 F.3d 651 1998 (virtually identical circumstances)

You don't know much about how the law works. The Bunn-O-Matic case is from the Seventh Circuit. The Liedeck case is from New Mexico, which isn't even in the same federal circuit.

This case epitomizes the frivolous lawsuit.
American National Standards Institute/Association of Household Appliance Manufacturers Joint Standard CM-1-1986, Section 5.2.1 provides:

On completion of the brewing cycle and within a 2 minute interval, the beverage temperature in the dispensing vessel of the coffee maker while stirring should be between the limits of 170 degrees F and 205 degrees F (77 degrees C and 96 degrees C).

The upper finished brew temperature limit assures that the coffee does not reach the boiling point which can affect the taste and aroma. The lower temperature limit assures generally acceptable drinking temperature when pouring into a cold cup, adding cream, sugar and spoon.

Standard 5.2.3.2 adds, for any coffee maker that "incorporates means to maintain beverage temperature on completion of a brewing cycle": With the appliance containing maximum rated cup capacity of liquid, basket and pump removed (if present), allow to stand while still energized...for a period of 1 hour at which time the beverage temperature in the appliance should not be lower than 170 degrees F (76.7 degrees C).

Nope, it does not. Even these standards you've posted (which really don't have much to do with how hot a beverage should be served by McDonald's to its customers in cars) note that they are intended to ensure an acceptable drinking temperature in the face of reductions-- which means that they can result in unacceptable drinking temperature in the face of lesser or no reduction.

Amused is fulla crap. He doesn't list the dozens of cases he's referring to brought by the same law firm, fails to realize that other cases have been settled (note that before Liedeck McDonald's settled others for over $500,000), doesn't know one whit about the law, and when his face is rubbed in his own stupidity, avoids the issue by saying he's actually right. BTW, cases are by no means absolutely unanimous on whether the general knowledge that coffee is hot means that a restaurant is under no duty to sell it at a safe temperature. :roll:

This is one of those things where the knee-jerk reaction is predictably espoused here, even by those with predictably high post counts.

You call people full of crap yet you spew such nonsense?

Please, show me ONE successful (won or settled) SELF INFLICTED coffee burn case besides the Liebeck case. Yes, McDonalds has settled cases in which the cup failed or the coffee was spilled by one of it's employees. But it has NOT settled a case in which the customer, free and clear of the purchase process, then spilled the coffee on themselves and the stability of the container was not called into question or blamed.

Whoops!
 

6000SUX

Golden Member
May 8, 2005
1,504
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Originally posted by: tcsenter
The case would NEVER have survived an appeal. see: McMahon v. Bunn-O-Matic Corp., 150 F.3d 651 1998 (virtually identical circumstances)

You don't know much about how the law works. The Bunn-O-Matic case is from the Seventh Circuit. The Liedeck case is from New Mexico, which isn't even in the same federal circuit.

This case epitomizes the frivolous lawsuit.
American National Standards Institute/Association of Household Appliance Manufacturers Joint Standard CM-1-1986, Section 5.2.1 provides:

On completion of the brewing cycle and within a 2 minute interval, the beverage temperature in the dispensing vessel of the coffee maker while stirring should be between the limits of 170 degrees F and 205 degrees F (77 degrees C and 96 degrees C).

The upper finished brew temperature limit assures that the coffee does not reach the boiling point which can affect the taste and aroma. The lower temperature limit assures generally acceptable drinking temperature when pouring into a cold cup, adding cream, sugar and spoon.

Standard 5.2.3.2 adds, for any coffee maker that "incorporates means to maintain beverage temperature on completion of a brewing cycle": With the appliance containing maximum rated cup capacity of liquid, basket and pump removed (if present), allow to stand while still energized...for a period of 1 hour at which time the beverage temperature in the appliance should not be lower than 170 degrees F (76.7 degrees C).

Nope, it does not. Even these standards you've posted (which really don't have much to do with how hot a beverage should be served by McDonald's to its customers in cars) note that they are intended to ensure an acceptable drinking temperature in the face of reductions-- which means that they can result in unacceptable drinking temperature in the face of lesser or no reduction.

Amused is fulla crap. He doesn't list the dozens of cases he's referring to brought by the same law firm, fails to realize that other cases have been settled (note that before Liedeck McDonald's settled others for over $500,000), doesn't know one whit about the law, and when his face is rubbed in his own stupidity, avoids the issue by saying he's actually right. BTW, cases are by no means absolutely unanimous on whether the general knowledge that coffee is hot means that a restaurant is under no duty to sell it at a safe temperature. :roll:

This is one of those things where the knee-jerk reaction is predictably espoused here, even by those with predictably high post counts.

You call people full of crap yet you spew such nonsense?

Please, show me ONE successful (won or settled) SELF INFLICTED coffee burn case besides the Liebeck case. Yes, McDonalds has settled cases in which the cup failed or the coffee was spilled by one of it's employees. But it has NOT settled a case in which the customer, free and clear of the purchase process, then spilled the coffee on themselves and the stability of the container was not called into question or blamed.

Whoops!

Oh yeah, nonsense because King Spewie says so. Here are a couple of cases I pulled up in a quick search:

Nadel v. Burger King Corp., 695 N.E.2d 1185 (Ohio App. 1 Dist. 1997)
Mother of child, who had suffered burns when hot coffee purchased from drive-thru window of fast food restaurant spilled in vehicle in which child was riding, sued restaurant operator and franchisor on child's behalf. On appeal, summary judgment denied to defendants, as genuine issues of material fact existed as to whether the coffee was excessively hot, and unreasonably dangerous without warning. Settled.

Rearick v. Hardee's Family Restaurant, 1995 WL 701632 (Pa.Com.Pl. 1995)
In an action seeking to recover for injuries allegedly sustained as a result of hot coffee sold at a restaurant drive-though window, plaintiffs' strict liability, breach of merchantability, and punitive damages claims were sufficient to withstand defendant's demurrer (motion for summary judgment). Settled.

Where are your dozens and dozens of cases filed and lost in court by counsel for the plaintiff in Leibeck, hmm? I'm sorry, "Your Anus"?
 

6000SUX

Golden Member
May 8, 2005
1,504
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: bctbct
Originally posted by: Amused


No but it will be your fault if I bust my ass on a wet floor in you're restaurant and you dont have a sign up, you're honor, I rest my case. :)

Um, again. Coffee is, and always has been an obvious risk. To add to that, there have been warning on hot cups for as long as I have been alive.

You have nothing to rest. You never had a case.

So, prove your point and mop your floor without a sign. You crack me up, you say the old lady is at fault but you protect your customers with a sign.

Wet floor/ obvious risk.....you sold out out beliefs to protect your customers.

A wet floor is not an obvious risk.

*Are all floors ALWAYS wet? No.

*Is good hot coffee ALWAYS served hot enough to burn? Yes

*Is the water on the floor readily apparent? Not always, it depends on the lighting and the vision abilities of the observer.

*Is the heat of the coffee readily apparent? Of course.

The only thing cracking you up is your failed logic.[/quote]

Your logic here fails because if coffee is sold at lower temperatures a good deal of the time, even if it is not "good" by your standards, then customers may fairly expect it to be sold at a lesser temperature. I often get coffee at the local gas station on my way out in the morning, and while I am absolutely positive you would turn up your sensitive nose at it, it is not too hot to drink immediately without discomfort. This is not your best argument.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: Vic
Amused is right (and he should be, he owns and operates restaurants IIRC). The ideal brewing temp for coffee is near boiling. The ideal serving temp is 180F. This was not, as that lawyer's page so obviously libeled, so that McD's could save a few beans and hence a few pennies. Ask any true coffee aficionado. They want it HOT. HOT. HOT.

I like it just too hot to drink, actually, not third-degree-burn level. I don't see the point of the latter. Sure she's responsible for spilling it but needlessly serving it at extreme levels is ridiculous unless there are considerable gains in taste (especially when those could come elsewhere). Waiting that long for it to cool is just annoying too.

By one side's logic, everything should be as dangerous as possible (with very diminishing returns) just because it can be. If it's because of money, I'd frown on businesses with such practices anyway and if they lost a suit I wouldn't have any sympathy for them.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,509
20,136
146
Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Originally posted by: tcsenter
The case would NEVER have survived an appeal. see: McMahon v. Bunn-O-Matic Corp., 150 F.3d 651 1998 (virtually identical circumstances)

You don't know much about how the law works. The Bunn-O-Matic case is from the Seventh Circuit. The Liedeck case is from New Mexico, which isn't even in the same federal circuit.

This case epitomizes the frivolous lawsuit.
American National Standards Institute/Association of Household Appliance Manufacturers Joint Standard CM-1-1986, Section 5.2.1 provides:

On completion of the brewing cycle and within a 2 minute interval, the beverage temperature in the dispensing vessel of the coffee maker while stirring should be between the limits of 170 degrees F and 205 degrees F (77 degrees C and 96 degrees C).

The upper finished brew temperature limit assures that the coffee does not reach the boiling point which can affect the taste and aroma. The lower temperature limit assures generally acceptable drinking temperature when pouring into a cold cup, adding cream, sugar and spoon.

Standard 5.2.3.2 adds, for any coffee maker that "incorporates means to maintain beverage temperature on completion of a brewing cycle": With the appliance containing maximum rated cup capacity of liquid, basket and pump removed (if present), allow to stand while still energized...for a period of 1 hour at which time the beverage temperature in the appliance should not be lower than 170 degrees F (76.7 degrees C).

Nope, it does not. Even these standards you've posted (which really don't have much to do with how hot a beverage should be served by McDonald's to its customers in cars) note that they are intended to ensure an acceptable drinking temperature in the face of reductions-- which means that they can result in unacceptable drinking temperature in the face of lesser or no reduction.

Amused is fulla crap. He doesn't list the dozens of cases he's referring to brought by the same law firm, fails to realize that other cases have been settled (note that before Liedeck McDonald's settled others for over $500,000), doesn't know one whit about the law, and when his face is rubbed in his own stupidity, avoids the issue by saying he's actually right. BTW, cases are by no means absolutely unanimous on whether the general knowledge that coffee is hot means that a restaurant is under no duty to sell it at a safe temperature. :roll:

This is one of those things where the knee-jerk reaction is predictably espoused here, even by those with predictably high post counts.

You call people full of crap yet you spew such nonsense?

Please, show me ONE successful (won or settled) SELF INFLICTED coffee burn case besides the Liebeck case. Yes, McDonalds has settled cases in which the cup failed or the coffee was spilled by one of it's employees. But it has NOT settled a case in which the customer, free and clear of the purchase process, then spilled the coffee on themselves and the stability of the container was not called into question or blamed.

Whoops!

Oh yeah, nonsense because King Spewie says so. Here are a couple of cases I pulled up in a quick search:

Nadel v. Burger King Corp., 695 N.E.2d 1185 (Ohio App. 1 Dist. 1997)
Mother of child, who had suffered burns when hot coffee purchased from drive-thru window of fast food restaurant spilled in vehicle in which child was riding, sued restaurant operator and franchisor on child's behalf. On appeal, summary judgment denied to defendants, as genuine issues of material fact existed as to whether the coffee was excessively hot, and unreasonably dangerous without warning. Settled.

Rearick v. Hardee's Family Restaurant, 1995 WL 701632 (Pa.Com.Pl. 1995)
In an action seeking to recover for injuries allegedly sustained as a result of hot coffee sold at a restaurant drive-though window, plaintiffs' strict liability, breach of merchantability, and punitive damages claims were sufficient to withstand defendant's demurrer (motion for summary judgment). Settled.

Where are your dozens and dozens of cases filed and lost in court by counsel for the plaintiff in Leibeck, hmm? I'm sorry, "Your Anus"?

Both cases lost in court. I cannot find evidence of any settlement in the first, and google searches of the second come up dry. You did not provide any links.

Note both cases lost. If they did settle, it was because the settlement amount was less than the cost of fighting appeals. Businesses do this all the time.

And if you actually read any of my links you'd know the case I posted showing a loss listed many cases that were denied. It also lists the first case you have in your post... showing appeal was denied and it lost. The only case it notes as a win is the Liebeck case.
 

6000SUX

Golden Member
May 8, 2005
1,504
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Originally posted by: tcsenter
The case would NEVER have survived an appeal. see: McMahon v. Bunn-O-Matic Corp., 150 F.3d 651 1998 (virtually identical circumstances)

You don't know much about how the law works. The Bunn-O-Matic case is from the Seventh Circuit. The Liedeck case is from New Mexico, which isn't even in the same federal circuit.

This case epitomizes the frivolous lawsuit.
American National Standards Institute/Association of Household Appliance Manufacturers Joint Standard CM-1-1986, Section 5.2.1 provides:

On completion of the brewing cycle and within a 2 minute interval, the beverage temperature in the dispensing vessel of the coffee maker while stirring should be between the limits of 170 degrees F and 205 degrees F (77 degrees C and 96 degrees C).

The upper finished brew temperature limit assures that the coffee does not reach the boiling point which can affect the taste and aroma. The lower temperature limit assures generally acceptable drinking temperature when pouring into a cold cup, adding cream, sugar and spoon.

Standard 5.2.3.2 adds, for any coffee maker that "incorporates means to maintain beverage temperature on completion of a brewing cycle": With the appliance containing maximum rated cup capacity of liquid, basket and pump removed (if present), allow to stand while still energized...for a period of 1 hour at which time the beverage temperature in the appliance should not be lower than 170 degrees F (76.7 degrees C).

Nope, it does not. Even these standards you've posted (which really don't have much to do with how hot a beverage should be served by McDonald's to its customers in cars) note that they are intended to ensure an acceptable drinking temperature in the face of reductions-- which means that they can result in unacceptable drinking temperature in the face of lesser or no reduction.

Amused is fulla crap. He doesn't list the dozens of cases he's referring to brought by the same law firm, fails to realize that other cases have been settled (note that before Liedeck McDonald's settled others for over $500,000), doesn't know one whit about the law, and when his face is rubbed in his own stupidity, avoids the issue by saying he's actually right. BTW, cases are by no means absolutely unanimous on whether the general knowledge that coffee is hot means that a restaurant is under no duty to sell it at a safe temperature. :roll:

This is one of those things where the knee-jerk reaction is predictably espoused here, even by those with predictably high post counts.

You call people full of crap yet you spew such nonsense?

Please, show me ONE successful (won or settled) SELF INFLICTED coffee burn case besides the Liebeck case. Yes, McDonalds has settled cases in which the cup failed or the coffee was spilled by one of it's employees. But it has NOT settled a case in which the customer, free and clear of the purchase process, then spilled the coffee on themselves and the stability of the container was not called into question or blamed.

Whoops!

Oh yeah, nonsense because King Spewie says so. Here are a couple of cases I pulled up in a quick search:

Nadel v. Burger King Corp., 695 N.E.2d 1185 (Ohio App. 1 Dist. 1997)
Mother of child, who had suffered burns when hot coffee purchased from drive-thru window of fast food restaurant spilled in vehicle in which child was riding, sued restaurant operator and franchisor on child's behalf. On appeal, summary judgment denied to defendants, as genuine issues of material fact existed as to whether the coffee was excessively hot, and unreasonably dangerous without warning. Settled.

Rearick v. Hardee's Family Restaurant, 1995 WL 701632 (Pa.Com.Pl. 1995)
In an action seeking to recover for injuries allegedly sustained as a result of hot coffee sold at a restaurant drive-though window, plaintiffs' strict liability, breach of merchantability, and punitive damages claims were sufficient to withstand defendant's demurrer (motion for summary judgment). Settled.

Where are your dozens and dozens of cases filed and lost in court by counsel for the plaintiff in Leibeck, hmm? I'm sorry, "Your Anus"?

Both cases lost in court. I cannot find evidence of any settlement in the first, and google searches of the second come up dry. You did not provide any links.

Note both cases lost. If they did settle, it was because the settlement amount was less than the cost of fighting appeals. Businesses do this all the time.

No, they did not lose. They settled. I guess that's what you get for doing your legal research using Google. :laugh: Nice how you conveniently explain away the inaccuracy of your previous statements. So you know they lost in court-- but if they did settle, it's only because the defendant wanted to save money, eh? 3 - 6000SUX. 0 - Amused.

Dum, de dum dum-- the appeal by the DEFENDANT did not "lose", it was denied.

One thing's clear: you'd never make it as a lawyer. Have a nice life.

P.S. Where are the scads of cases to which you alluded, where counsel for the plaintiff in Leibeck brought coffee-burn cases that lost? You owe me this much, even if you can't do research. Either produce the list of cases or admit what's obvious, that you were talking out of your know-nothing ass.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,509
20,136
146
Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Originally posted by: tcsenter
The case would NEVER have survived an appeal. see: McMahon v. Bunn-O-Matic Corp., 150 F.3d 651 1998 (virtually identical circumstances)

You don't know much about how the law works. The Bunn-O-Matic case is from the Seventh Circuit. The Liedeck case is from New Mexico, which isn't even in the same federal circuit.

This case epitomizes the frivolous lawsuit.
American National Standards Institute/Association of Household Appliance Manufacturers Joint Standard CM-1-1986, Section 5.2.1 provides:

On completion of the brewing cycle and within a 2 minute interval, the beverage temperature in the dispensing vessel of the coffee maker while stirring should be between the limits of 170 degrees F and 205 degrees F (77 degrees C and 96 degrees C).

The upper finished brew temperature limit assures that the coffee does not reach the boiling point which can affect the taste and aroma. The lower temperature limit assures generally acceptable drinking temperature when pouring into a cold cup, adding cream, sugar and spoon.

Standard 5.2.3.2 adds, for any coffee maker that "incorporates means to maintain beverage temperature on completion of a brewing cycle": With the appliance containing maximum rated cup capacity of liquid, basket and pump removed (if present), allow to stand while still energized...for a period of 1 hour at which time the beverage temperature in the appliance should not be lower than 170 degrees F (76.7 degrees C).

Nope, it does not. Even these standards you've posted (which really don't have much to do with how hot a beverage should be served by McDonald's to its customers in cars) note that they are intended to ensure an acceptable drinking temperature in the face of reductions-- which means that they can result in unacceptable drinking temperature in the face of lesser or no reduction.

Amused is fulla crap. He doesn't list the dozens of cases he's referring to brought by the same law firm, fails to realize that other cases have been settled (note that before Liedeck McDonald's settled others for over $500,000), doesn't know one whit about the law, and when his face is rubbed in his own stupidity, avoids the issue by saying he's actually right. BTW, cases are by no means absolutely unanimous on whether the general knowledge that coffee is hot means that a restaurant is under no duty to sell it at a safe temperature. :roll:

This is one of those things where the knee-jerk reaction is predictably espoused here, even by those with predictably high post counts.

You call people full of crap yet you spew such nonsense?

Please, show me ONE successful (won or settled) SELF INFLICTED coffee burn case besides the Liebeck case. Yes, McDonalds has settled cases in which the cup failed or the coffee was spilled by one of it's employees. But it has NOT settled a case in which the customer, free and clear of the purchase process, then spilled the coffee on themselves and the stability of the container was not called into question or blamed.

Whoops!

Oh yeah, nonsense because King Spewie says so. Here are a couple of cases I pulled up in a quick search:

Nadel v. Burger King Corp., 695 N.E.2d 1185 (Ohio App. 1 Dist. 1997)
Mother of child, who had suffered burns when hot coffee purchased from drive-thru window of fast food restaurant spilled in vehicle in which child was riding, sued restaurant operator and franchisor on child's behalf. On appeal, summary judgment denied to defendants, as genuine issues of material fact existed as to whether the coffee was excessively hot, and unreasonably dangerous without warning. Settled.

Rearick v. Hardee's Family Restaurant, 1995 WL 701632 (Pa.Com.Pl. 1995)
In an action seeking to recover for injuries allegedly sustained as a result of hot coffee sold at a restaurant drive-though window, plaintiffs' strict liability, breach of merchantability, and punitive damages claims were sufficient to withstand defendant's demurrer (motion for summary judgment). Settled.

Where are your dozens and dozens of cases filed and lost in court by counsel for the plaintiff in Leibeck, hmm? I'm sorry, "Your Anus"?

Both cases lost in court. I cannot find evidence of any settlement in the first, and google searches of the second come up dry. You did not provide any links.

Note both cases lost. If they did settle, it was because the settlement amount was less than the cost of fighting appeals. Businesses do this all the time.

No, they did not lose. They settled. I guess that's what you get for doing your legal research using Google. :laugh: Nice how you conveniently explain away the inaccuracy of your previous statements. 3 - 6000SUX. 0 - Amused.

One thing's clear: you'd never make it as a lawyer. Have a nice life.

Read my edit.

The fisrt case was DENIED. I find no evidence of a settlement and you still have not provided links.

And I guarantee the majority of people take my side on this. Meaning I would win in court.

I have a nice life, a nice business and I fight tooth and nail not to be financially ruined by nanny-state clowns like yourself.

Oh, and:

Other, similar suits have come to the same summary end, see Barnett v. Leiserv, Inc., 968 F. Supp. 690 (N.D. Ga.), affirmed without opinion, 137 F.3d 1356 (11th Cir. 1997); Greene v. Boddie-Noell Enterprises, Inc., 966 F. Supp. 416 (W.D. Va. 1997); Lamkin v. Braniff Airlines, Inc., 853 F. Supp. 30 (D. Mass. 1994); Oubre v. E-Z Serve Corp., 1998 La. App. Lexis 1392 (5th Cir. 1998); Huppe v. Twenty-First Century Restaurants of America, Inc., 497 N.Y.S.2d 306 (Sup. Ct. 1985), although one published opinion has held that a claim of this sort is triable, see Nadel v. Burger King Corp., 1997 Ohio App. Lexis 2144 (1st Dist.), review denied, 684 N.E.2d 706 (1997), and a suit in New Mexico (Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants, P.T.S., Inc.) produced a widely publicized jury verdict of some $3 million but not a published opinion (the case was settled before appeal).

http://laws.findlaw.com/7th/974131.html

Find me another self inflicted coffee injury case Reed Morgan has won. Yet in interviews after the Liebeck case he said he was pursuing many.
 

Dessert Tears

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2005
1,100
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76
How Hot Do You Like It?

by Andrea Gerlin
Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal
September 1, 1994
The Wall Street Journal

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. - When a law firm here found itself defending McDonald's Corp. in a suit last year that claimed the company served dangerously hot coffee, it hired a law student to take temperatures at other local restaurants for comparison.

After dutifully slipping a thermometer into steaming cups and mugs all over the city, Danny Jarrett found that none came closer than about 20 degrees to the temperature at which McDonald's coffee is poured, about 180 degrees.
Just a quick question - was McDonald's coffee also tested as a control?
 

6000SUX

Golden Member
May 8, 2005
1,504
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Read my edit.

The fisrt case was DENIED. I find no evidence of a settlement and you still have not provided links.

Sorry, most people don't do their research on Google. Almost all of the world's cases are not on Google. In addition, you are an absolute moron: read my lips, now: the APPEAL BY THE DEFENDANTS WAS DENIED ON THE SUMMARY JUDGMENT MOTION. The case was not "denied", as you call it, or dismissed.

And I guarantee the majority of people take my side on this. Meaning I would win in court.

Nope. The way it works in civil cases is that the jury is instructed by the judge on what they are allowed to do, by the law (if it's even a jury-trial situation). The jury doesn't just do what they want. Also keep in mind what the Wall Street Journal article, to which you do have access, says: the jurors in Liebeck would have thought as you do, before seeing the evidence and going through the trial. You need to read a primer on the law before you come back here and try to go on about it.

Find me another self inflicted coffee injury case Reed Morgan has won. Yet in interviews after the Liebeck case he said he was pursuing many.

Where is the admission that you were talking out of your ass? :confused: If you don't play fair, you can't play. :thumbsdown:
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,509
20,136
146
Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Originally posted by: Amused
Read my edit.

The fisrt case was DENIED. I find no evidence of a settlement and you still have not provided links.

Sorry, most people don't do their research on Google. Almost all of the world's cases are not on Google. In addition, you are an absolute moron: read my lips, now: the APPEAL BY THE DEFENDANTS WAS DENIED ON THE SUMMARY JUDGMENT MOTION. The case was not "denied", as you call it, or dismissed.

And I guarantee the majority of people take my side on this. Meaning I would win in court.

Nope. The way it works in civil cases is that the jury is instructed by the judge on what they are allowed to do, by the law (if it's even a jury-trial situation). The jury doesn't just do what they want. Also keep in mind what the Wall Street Journal article, to which you do have access, says: the jurors in Liebeck would have thought as you do, before seeing the evidence and going through the trial. You need to read a primer on the law before you come back here and try to go on about it.

Find me another self inflicted coffee injury case Reed Morgan has won. Yet in interviews after the Liebeck case he said he was pursuing many.

Where is the admission that you were talking out of your ass? :confused: If you don't play fair, you can't play. :thumbsdown:

Nadel v. Burger King Corp., 1997 Ohio App. Lexis 2144 (1st Dist.), review denied.

Sorry. You can split hairs all you want. You can post cases that have no refernce on the internet all you want. But in the end, I'll believe the 7th court of appeals over you.

I am playing fair. Find me a single case of Reed Morgan winning a self inflicted coffee burn claim. You're the one who claims to have resources so much greator than mine.
 

6000SUX

Golden Member
May 8, 2005
1,504
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Originally posted by: Amused
Read my edit.

The fisrt case was DENIED. I find no evidence of a settlement and you still have not provided links.

Sorry, most people don't do their research on Google. Almost all of the world's cases are not on Google. In addition, you are an absolute moron: read my lips, now: the APPEAL BY THE DEFENDANTS WAS DENIED ON THE SUMMARY JUDGMENT MOTION. The case was not "denied", as you call it, or dismissed.

And I guarantee the majority of people take my side on this. Meaning I would win in court.

Nope. The way it works in civil cases is that the jury is instructed by the judge on what they are allowed to do, by the law (if it's even a jury-trial situation). The jury doesn't just do what they want. Also keep in mind what the Wall Street Journal article, to which you do have access, says: the jurors in Liebeck would have thought as you do, before seeing the evidence and going through the trial. You need to read a primer on the law before you come back here and try to go on about it.

Find me another self inflicted coffee injury case Reed Morgan has won. Yet in interviews after the Liebeck case he said he was pursuing many.

Where is the admission that you were talking out of your ass? :confused: If you don't play fair, you can't play. :thumbsdown:

Nadel v. Burger King Corp., 1997 Ohio App. Lexis 2144 (1st Dist.), review denied.

Read my lips: T-H-E D-E-F-E-N-D-A-N-T-'-S A-P-P-E-A-L W-A-S D-E-N-I-E-D. This is not splitting hairs, it's just what happened.

LALALALALALALA. Hahahaha...

You are not playing fair when you said, "The law firm that represented Stella pressed MANY similar self inflicted coffee burn cases after hers, and lost all of them.", and now refuse to produce the MANY cases and try shift the burden onto me. Are you being dishonest on purpose? Where are all of these cases that they lost? ADMIT IT WHEN YOU'RE WRONG. PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

I do realize that you can't be expected to do legal research without the necessary skills and tools, but here are a couple of links about settlements just from Burger King that are web-accessible:
http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/stories/1996/08/05/tidbits.html
http://www.overlawyered.com/2006/03/burger_king_hot_coffee_lawsuit.html

That second one looks like it's on a website that you might like.
 

allies

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2002
2,572
0
71
Originally posted by: AMDZen
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: maziwanka
I gotta run, but this is definitely a good read.

I learned about this in my first year civil procedure class.

don't be so quick to jump to conclusions about "frivolous" lawsuits. the marketing power of the parties sued is amazing.

+ronnie

http://www.siegfriedandjensen.com/cases.html

This has been spammed all over and shredded to death. What you are helping to spam is ambulance chaser propaganda.

The ONLY truth about the McDonald's coffee case it that the insurance company didn't take it seriously, and did not present an adequate defense. In short, it was handed to the ambulance chasers by McDonald's insurance company and their incompetence. McDonald's has learned from their mistake and will no longer allow it's insurance company to represent it in lawsuits.
You have to be kidding.

You may think that's how it should have been, but knowing your product is dangerous, and that failure is likely (obviously coffee is going to get spilled) in such a manner as to make that danger meaningful, and failing to do something about it is negligent.

That's what negligence is. If it were intentional, that would be called assault, not negligence.

Now, maybe you don't believe in the concept of negligence, but you've got no leg to stand on in terms of the laws of your country.

This coming from a Canadian, gee didn't see that coming. This is why every product in America now has to say "do not consume" its frickin DRANO I knew I shouldn't consume it. Where do you draw the line? Putting something on a sharpie permanent marker "Do not shove up your ass with the cap still on." I mean where does stupidity end?

I bet she tried to pour it on herself.
 

CDC Mail Guy

Golden Member
May 2, 2005
1,213
0
71
Bought a cup of coffee the other day from the big M, and it was almost an hour before I could even attempt taking a sip.
 

SampSon

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2006
7,160
1
0
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: SampSon
Hate to break it to ya, but you've made the same arguments and used the same style of arguments in every single McDonalds coffee case thread. The points you are making are irrelevant. The only relevance in your post is that the companies changed their policies in order to make it more "safe". Though the reality is that they only made the changes so they didn't get sued excessively after this landmark case that just happened to get the attention of a large portion of the nation. Simple enough?

Anything you argue beyond that is semantics. So here is a semantics argument for you, since you so dearly love them:

Do you really think the McDonalds corporation gives two flying sh!ts about the "safety" of it's customers drinking their coffee or eating their food? Really, just think outside of the idiotic forum menality for a second and ponder it. I know you're just going to come back with some defacto response, but hey, it's worth a shot, right? On top of that I'm going to a Sabres vs Maple Leafs game in a few minutes and won't be here to read your mindless posts like Amused does :D. I'll just throw this out there, would you sue the gas company (or cigarette company) if you burned yourself by spilling gas on your clothes from an open lawn mower tank and dropping your lit cigarette on yourself? I'm sure you'd try because common sense rarely applies in the court system.

Here is the simple answer, every restaurant, gas station, manufacturer, construction site, brothel, casino, bar, drug den or whatever, has to display a huge sign reading:

ATTENTION: POSSIBLE DANGER TO YOUR HEALTH, MOSTLY DUE TO YOUR OWN STUPIDITY. ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK!
I'm really unclear as you what your argument is. Is it a slippery slope argument? Because it's not a good one.

As for how many of these threads there have been, I remember one, but I can't find it, and frankly don't remember what level of involvement I had. If I posted much, I hope I posted roughly the same arguments, because they were right then, too.
Of course you're unclear, you don't really care about anything but your opinion.
If your arguments were right before, why is it that Amused tears them apart everytime?

As for you calling me out on logical fallacy arguments, you're as guilty as I am.

Your argument is that the coffee they served is "too hot" and because of the history McDonalds has with people filing suit with similar circumstances that they are guilty of negligence due to the temperature of the coffee. Seeing as how the serving temperature is a completely subjective thing, the temp. that other establishments serve their coffee at is irrelevant.

This is a case of people not wanting to take personal responsibility for their own actions, and to blame it on a large corporation because they feel that these corporations should compensate them for their own ignorance. This is now common place is todays society and is sickening.

When the responsibility of safeguarding people's lives gets shifted into the hands of governmental agencies, everyone loses. Except, of course, the mindless fools whom decide a lawsuit is in order because everyone BUT themselves were looking out for their own best interests. If anything the woman's lawyers were guilty of profiteering, but since it was a "little old lady" all the human sympathy fell into her court and not the evil evil evil McDonalds corporation.

I've hurt myself plenty of times on other people's property and could have filed suit and been awared some sort of compensation. Though I'm the type of person who knows when it's my responsibility to look out for myself no matter what the situation.

This woman spilled coffee on herself and the result was severe burns. No one is taking into account that the woman was elderly and probably (almost definitely, but no one bothered to test her abilities) didn't have anywhere near the best control over her motor skills.
Ultimately the vast majority of responsibility fell on McDonalds corp. because their coffee was "too hot" and the idea that they should be holding the hands of all of their customers no matter what the circumstance. This is evident in all of the cases the incredibly obese have filed against McDonalds because their food made them fat. :roll:

Your "nanny state" mentality only works in favor of the public, no matter how incompetent everyone but the corporations are. The idea of personal responsibility is systematically being torn down by people who are too ignorant and lazy too look out for their own wellbeing.
I have little to no sympathy for this woman, not matter how much money McDonalds is bringing in. Money should have little to do with personal safety responsibility.

 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: SampSon
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: SampSon
Hate to break it to ya, but you've made the same arguments and used the same style of arguments in every single McDonalds coffee case thread. The points you are making are irrelevant. The only relevance in your post is that the companies changed their policies in order to make it more "safe". Though the reality is that they only made the changes so they didn't get sued excessively after this landmark case that just happened to get the attention of a large portion of the nation. Simple enough?

Anything you argue beyond that is semantics. So here is a semantics argument for you, since you so dearly love them:

Do you really think the McDonalds corporation gives two flying sh!ts about the "safety" of it's customers drinking their coffee or eating their food? Really, just think outside of the idiotic forum menality for a second and ponder it. I know you're just going to come back with some defacto response, but hey, it's worth a shot, right? On top of that I'm going to a Sabres vs Maple Leafs game in a few minutes and won't be here to read your mindless posts like Amused does :D. I'll just throw this out there, would you sue the gas company (or cigarette company) if you burned yourself by spilling gas on your clothes from an open lawn mower tank and dropping your lit cigarette on yourself? I'm sure you'd try because common sense rarely applies in the court system.

Here is the simple answer, every restaurant, gas station, manufacturer, construction site, brothel, casino, bar, drug den or whatever, has to display a huge sign reading:

ATTENTION: POSSIBLE DANGER TO YOUR HEALTH, MOSTLY DUE TO YOUR OWN STUPIDITY. ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK!
I'm really unclear as you what your argument is. Is it a slippery slope argument? Because it's not a good one.

As for how many of these threads there have been, I remember one, but I can't find it, and frankly don't remember what level of involvement I had. If I posted much, I hope I posted roughly the same arguments, because they were right then, too.
Of course you're unclear, you don't really care about anything but your opinion.
If your arguments were right before, why is it that Amused tears them apart everytime?

As for you calling me out on logical fallacy arguments, you're as guilty as I am.

Your argument is that the coffee they served is "too hot" and because of the history McDonalds has with people filing suit with similar circumstances that they are guilty of negligence due to the temperature of the coffee. Seeing as how the serving temperature is a completely subjective thing, the temp. that other establishments serve their coffee at is irrelevant.

This is a case of people not wanting to take personal responsibility for their own actions, and to blame it on a large corporation because they feel that these corporations should compensate them for their own ignorance. This is now common place is todays society and is sickening.

When the responsibility of safeguarding people's lives gets shifted into the hands of governmental agencies, everyone loses. Except, of course, the mindless fools whom decide a lawsuit is in order because everyone BUT themselves were looking out for their own best interests. If anything the woman's lawyers were guilty of profiteering, but since it was a "little old lady" all the human sympathy fell into her court and not the evil evil evil McDonalds corporation.

I've hurt myself plenty of times on other people's property and could have filed suit and been awared some sort of compensation. Though I'm the type of person who knows when it's my responsibility to look out for myself no matter what the situation.

This woman spilled coffee on herself and the result was severe burns. No one is taking into account that the woman was elderly and probably (almost definitely, but no one bothered to test her abilities) didn't have anywhere near the best control over her motor skills.
Ultimately the vast majority of responsibility fell on McDonalds corp. because their coffee was "too hot" and the idea that they should be holding the hands of all of their customers no matter what the circumstance. This is evident in all of the cases the incredibly obese have filed against McDonalds because their food made them fat. :roll:

Your "nanny state" mentality only works in favor of the public, no matter how incompetent everyone but the corporations are. The idea of personal responsibility is systematically being torn down by people who are too ignorant and lazy too look out for their own wellbeing.
I have little to no sympathy for this woman, not matter how much money McDonalds is bringing in. Money should have little to do with personal safety responsibility.
I've been leaving this one alone, because being badgered by someone who refuses to think is not particularly enlightening.

But Amused has not torn down, or 'destroyed' the arguments presented, he has shouted them down by being more persistent and rude than other posters.

The thing is, I agree with your general conclusions about many lawsuits. I agree that frivolous lawsuits and an expectation of being babied are a problem in our society. Product safety, the way the law is supposed to work, is like a social contract - any given danger should be addressed by the party most able to address it (thus why circular saws have guards, but scissors still have points).

What I disagree with is this particular case. If you've been following at all, you'll see the 6000SUX (who by the way I have disagreed with strongly in the past) has got Amused to the point that he is mindlessly repeating 'denied, denied, denied!' when it was the defendant's (i.e. 'coffee's') appeal that was denied.

Now, I'm going to sit back in my lawn chair, and see how this all plays out.

Edit - BTW you didn't make an argument in this post, or the last one, unless you call the first post a slippery slope attempt, in which case you have a lot of work to do.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Originally posted by: Amused
Read my edit.

The fisrt case was DENIED. I find no evidence of a settlement and you still have not provided links.

Sorry, most people don't do their research on Google. Almost all of the world's cases are not on Google. In addition, you are an absolute moron: read my lips, now: the APPEAL BY THE DEFENDANTS WAS DENIED ON THE SUMMARY JUDGMENT MOTION. The case was not "denied", as you call it, or dismissed.

And I guarantee the majority of people take my side on this. Meaning I would win in court.

Nope. The way it works in civil cases is that the jury is instructed by the judge on what they are allowed to do, by the law (if it's even a jury-trial situation). The jury doesn't just do what they want. Also keep in mind what the Wall Street Journal article, to which you do have access, says: the jurors in Liebeck would have thought as you do, before seeing the evidence and going through the trial. You need to read a primer on the law before you come back here and try to go on about it.

Find me another self inflicted coffee injury case Reed Morgan has won. Yet in interviews after the Liebeck case he said he was pursuing many.

Where is the admission that you were talking out of your ass? :confused: If you don't play fair, you can't play. :thumbsdown:

Nadel v. Burger King Corp., 1997 Ohio App. Lexis 2144 (1st Dist.), review denied.

Read my lips: T-H-E D-E-F-E-N-D-A-N-T-'-S A-P-P-E-A-L W-A-S D-E-N-I-E-D. This is not splitting hairs, it's just what happened.

LALALALALALALA. Hahahaha...

You are not playing fair when you said, "The law firm that represented Stella pressed MANY similar self inflicted coffee burn cases after hers, and lost all of them.", and now refuse to produce the MANY cases and try shift the burden onto me. Are you being dishonest on purpose? Where are all of these cases that they lost? ADMIT IT WHEN YOU'RE WRONG. PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

I do realize that you can't be expected to do legal research without the necessary skills and tools, but here are a couple of links about settlements just from Burger King that are web-accessible:
http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/stories/1996/08/05/tidbits.html
http://www.overlawyered.com/2006/03/burger_king_hot_coffee_lawsuit.html

That second one looks like it's on a website that you might like.

First link:

Attorney Laurie Moss of Abramowitz & Pomerantz said the coffee wasn't in a paper bag and that the lid was ajar.

A case of negligence on the part of the vendor because the lid was not secure. We covered this. This case is moot and does not apply.

The steam burned the woman's hand and she spilled...

Yep, a vendor error. Had the lid been secure, she would not have dropped it. Again, moot.

...the 180-degree java on her groin and upper thighs.

Wow... Didn't that little piece of ambulance chaser propaganda in the OP state that McD's coffee was 40 degrees hotter than the industry standard because they were mean, evil people bent on burning old ladies even though it costs them more to hold the coffee at that temp? That's rich...

As for the second case, I did not know that. I will now capitulate on settlements. It was my understanding from industry journals that no one had settled. I guess they were wrong. Anyhow, the case never went to court. Obviously BK figured it would be cheaper to pay them off than to pay all the money it would take to fight it in court. A sad reality that only encourages frivolous lawsuits and hurts entire industries. Very disappointing.

You still have yet to present a win.

 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie


What I disagree with is this particular case. If you've been following at all, you'll see the 6000SUX (who by the way I have disagreed with strongly in the past) has got Amused to the point that he is mindlessly repeating 'denied, denied, denied!' when it was the defendant's (i.e. 'coffee's') appeal that was denied.

Even if I am wrong on that one case, it does not destroy my entire argument. If there is, in fact, a second win in court that is only 2 wins in dozens and dozens of cases pressed. Still an aberration. That they were not appealed higher is a sad reality in business today. It is often cheaper to just pay off the ambulance chasers than it is to fight it in court.

At any rate, me being wrong and there being a couple obscure cases out there does NOTHING to the rest of my argument. To act as if it does is absurd.