The Trouble Is the West

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: Narmer
It's a well-known fact that Hirshi is a habitual liar. She's in need of lashes for obfuscation and outright lies. Furthermore, I fail to understand why people get angry at the people that are angry at them without asking the incredibly simple question of "Why?". It boggles the mind.

Or maybe some people don't want to know the truth and prefer to protray themselves as "victims" as they plunder other nations in the name of "terrorism and WMDs".

Oh, and she really needs to get laid.

Maybe she could get laid if she hadn't had the innards of her vagina cut out with scissors and sewn shut with just enough of a hole to urinate out of. Gotta love that Islamic culture . . .

Those rituals have less to do with Islamic culture than African culture. You need to learn your history before speaking. Besides, the way she speaks in apocalyptic terms puts her in the same category as all those losers that've never gotten laid before. One night with a man and she'll be more relaxed and able to speak in a coherent and intelligent tone without frothing at the mouth.

I've had my fair share of sex, and not once did the girl end up smarter than she was before. THAT'S the problem with this woman, she's not uptight...she's just stupid.

And honestly, so are you. I disagree with what she says, and I don't think she's being at all intelligent or reasonable about it. That said, your completely unnecessary attack on her is just out of line. Could we possibly behave like civilized people, even when we don't agree?

She certainly deserves everything I throw at her. That bitch is a liar. She got thrown out of Denmark for lying on her immigration application. And here she is again lying about a religion, demonizing an entire people. If you think I'm stupid for calling her out and suggesting she gets laid and relax a little, then you need to have your head examined.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Narmer
I think I can sum up that interview by saying: THAT'S ONE CRAZY AND STUPID BITCH!!!

I'm sure you say that of all of Islam's defectors. How dare they do anything but blindly defend the faith?!

Fitzgerald: Learning from Muslims themselves

In this news article, one more of those young Muslims claiming that "Islamophobia" explains mistrust of Muslims and of Islam, and if only we "learned about Islam from Muslims themselves," we would think differently. He is, in other words, full of the usual nonsense.

Of course we do "learn from Muslims themselves" whenever we read, and reread, the Qur'an, especially the 100-odd "Jihad" verses (see the Calcutta Qur'an Petition), and hundreds of Hadith, and the Sira. They tell us all we need to know about Muhammad, revered by Muslims as uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil, but appearing to many of us as something quite different in his own words and deeds. And we "learn from Muslims themselves" when some of those Muslims become ex-Muslims, and defect -- like Wafa Sultan and Nonie Darwish and Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali -- from the Army of Islam.

And we "learn from Muslims themselves" when we read what Muslim commentators and theologians wrote about the duty of Jihad. Some of the most important such commentators have been collected to form part of the contents of The Legacy of Jihad, a useful sourcebook compiled by Andrew Bostom.

And we "learn from Muslims themselves" whenever we turn on the radio, or television, or read what has just happened in Khartoum, or Karachi, or in a thousand places where Muslims cry out for someone to be killed. And often, in Dar al-Islam, someone is killed by others more fervent in their Islam. And there is no prospect of it stopping.

Yes, we already do "learn from Muslims themselves." And the offer to attend some predictable outreaching Muslim or Mosque Open House sticks in the craw, for taqiyya-and-tu-quoque just won't do anymore. They would have sufficed five years or especially ten years ago. But not now. And not ever again.

The site www.faithfreedom.org is one to be recommended to those who would like a view of Islam from its defectors, just as one would have learned most about Communism and the KGB (or the NKVD, or the Cheka) and the Comintern, from defectors. Why are ex-Muslims are not consulted? Why don?t the C.I.A. and the F.B.I. have them on the payroll? Why they are not brought in to lecture on how Muslims view the world, or the practice of taqiyya and kitman, and the really very repetitive means by which the nature of Islam is hidden from inspection, through taqiyya and tu quoque, selective quotation, misinterpretation, ignoring of abrogation, and even a little overlooking of the Hadith and the Sira, so that only the Qur'an is discussed? Who can explain all of this better to that Innocent Creature, an FBI or CIA employee, than an ex-Muslim?

Meanwhile, we are told by our leaders and our journalists that all Muslims yearn for is integration and acceptance. Then every holiday season, we hear again about some imam or other who has forbidden his flock to wish the Infidels well in their celebrations. There is something distinctly un-Fredrogersish about this insistence on not wishing Infidel neighbors well on their holidays, or indeed at any other time, even extending to not "first" saying hello.

"Won't you, won't you be my neighbor?" does not exactly sound like a theme song welcome on al-Jazeera. More appealing, apparently, are all those children's shows where a cute little boy or girl sings a song about how he, or she, "wants to be a suicide-bomber" and "kill Jews" -- but Christians, or "Crusaders," will also do nicely.

Fred Rogers would not know what to make of Islam. But in him it is forgivable. It is not forgivable, however, in C.I.A. agents (the childlike, and worrisomely stupid Michael Scheuer, or in high officials of the American government, who really need to get cracking in their study of Islam, and stop accepting taqiyya-and-tu-quoque, or the Peter-Bechtold-John-Esposito school of blah, or what the uomini d'onore of MESA Nostra have been telling their wiseguys to make everyone believe about Islam, and they'd better, otherwise vaffanculo, goombah, and worse.

Instead, they should "learn from Muslims themselves."

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: Narmer
It's a well-known fact that Hirshi is a habitual liar. She's in need of lashes for obfuscation and outright lies. Furthermore, I fail to understand why people get angry at the people that are angry at them without asking the incredibly simple question of "Why?". It boggles the mind.

Or maybe some people don't want to know the truth and prefer to protray themselves as "victims" as they plunder other nations in the name of "terrorism and WMDs".

Oh, and she really needs to get laid.

Maybe she could get laid if she hadn't had the innards of her vagina cut out with scissors and sewn shut with just enough of a hole to urinate out of. Gotta love that Islamic culture . . .

Those rituals have less to do with Islamic culture than African culture. You need to learn your history before speaking. Besides, the way she speaks in apocalyptic terms puts her in the same category as all those losers that've never gotten laid before. One night with a man and she'll be more relaxed and able to speak in a coherent and intelligent tone without frothing at the mouth.

Did Aesha need to get laid when she married Mohammed at age 8? Guess so . . . :roll:

You're off tangent.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Narmer
I think I can sum up that interview by saying: THAT'S ONE CRAZY AND STUPID BITCH!!!

I'm sure you say that of all of Islam's defectors. How dare they do anything but blindly defend the faith?!

Fitzgerald: Learning from Muslims themselves

In this news article, one more of those young Muslims claiming that "Islamophobia" explains mistrust of Muslims and of Islam, and if only we "learned about Islam from Muslims themselves," we would think differently. He is, in other words, full of the usual nonsense.

Of course we do "learn from Muslims themselves" whenever we read, and reread, the Qur'an, especially the 100-odd "Jihad" verses (see the Calcutta Qur'an Petition), and hundreds of Hadith, and the Sira. They tell us all we need to know about Muhammad, revered by Muslims as uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil, but appearing to many of us as something quite different in his own words and deeds. And we "learn from Muslims themselves" when some of those Muslims become ex-Muslims, and defect -- like Wafa Sultan and Nonie Darwish and Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali -- from the Army of Islam.

And we "learn from Muslims themselves" when we read what Muslim commentators and theologians wrote about the duty of Jihad. Some of the most important such commentators have been collected to form part of the contents of The Legacy of Jihad, a useful sourcebook compiled by Andrew Bostom.

And we "learn from Muslims themselves" whenever we turn on the radio, or television, or read what has just happened in Khartoum, or Karachi, or in a thousand places where Muslims cry out for someone to be killed. And often, in Dar al-Islam, someone is killed by others more fervent in their Islam. And there is no prospect of it stopping.

Yes, we already do "learn from Muslims themselves." And the offer to attend some predictable outreaching Muslim or Mosque Open House sticks in the craw, for taqiyya-and-tu-quoque just won't do anymore. They would have sufficed five years or especially ten years ago. But not now. And not ever again.

The site www.faithfreedom.org is one to be recommended to those who would like a view of Islam from its defectors, just as one would have learned most about Communism and the KGB (or the NKVD, or the Cheka) and the Comintern, from defectors. Why are ex-Muslims are not consulted? Why don?t the C.I.A. and the F.B.I. have them on the payroll? Why they are not brought in to lecture on how Muslims view the world, or the practice of taqiyya and kitman, and the really very repetitive means by which the nature of Islam is hidden from inspection, through taqiyya and tu quoque, selective quotation, misinterpretation, ignoring of abrogation, and even a little overlooking of the Hadith and the Sira, so that only the Qur'an is discussed? Who can explain all of this better to that Innocent Creature, an FBI or CIA employee, than an ex-Muslim?

Meanwhile, we are told by our leaders and our journalists that all Muslims yearn for is integration and acceptance. Then every holiday season, we hear again about some imam or other who has forbidden his flock to wish the Infidels well in their celebrations. There is something distinctly un-Fredrogersish about this insistence on not wishing Infidel neighbors well on their holidays, or indeed at any other time, even extending to not "first" saying hello.

"Won't you, won't you be my neighbor?" does not exactly sound like a theme song welcome on al-Jazeera. More appealing, apparently, are all those children's shows where a cute little boy or girl sings a song about how he, or she, "wants to be a suicide-bomber" and "kill Jews" -- but Christians, or "Crusaders," will also do nicely.

Fred Rogers would not know what to make of Islam. But in him it is forgivable. It is not forgivable, however, in C.I.A. agents (the childlike, and worrisomely stupid Michael Scheuer, or in high officials of the American government, who really need to get cracking in their study of Islam, and stop accepting taqiyya-and-tu-quoque, or the Peter-Bechtold-John-Esposito school of blah, or what the uomini d'onore of MESA Nostra have been telling their wiseguys to make everyone believe about Islam, and they'd better, otherwise vaffanculo, goombah, and worse.

Instead, they should "learn from Muslims themselves."

Islam defectors? WTF is wrong with you people? Islam is not a place or country or political party or cult. It is the second largest religion on Earth and growing very fast. You really need to stop with this nonsense. Christians are killing more muslims than vice versa and you're obsessed with Islam? This is just dumb.

 

[tvarad]

Narmer

"She certainly deserves everything I throw at her. That bitch is a liar. She got thrown out of Denmark for lying on her immigration application. And here she is again lying about a religion, demonizing an entire people. If you think I'm stupid for calling her out and suggesting she gets laid and relax a little, then you need to have your head examined."

Lying on immigration applications is nothing new and not the problem. It is no different than Haitians landing up uninvited on the shores of Florida, or Africans risking life and limb in the sea for a better life in the West. And the West treats them with the compassion embodied in their constitutions.

Lying on immigration applications with the intent to enter a county to bring down buildings and indulge in bombings and related mayhem, like the Islamo-fascists, is the real problem.

Like the Germans and Japanese pre-WWII, when they didn't stand up to the Nazis and militant imperialism respectively, they became part of the problem which was solved via WWII. If "peaceful Muslims" do not stand up to the Islamo-fascists within their midst, they too become part of the problem. It is better to start pointing fingers now like she is doing to avoid WWIII.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: tvarad
Like the Germans and Japanese pre-WWII, when they didn't stand up to the Nazis and militant imperialism respectively, they became part of the problem which was solved via WWII. If "peaceful Muslims" do not stand up to the Islamo-fascists within their midst, they too become part of the problem. It is better to start pointing fingers now like she is doing to avoid WWIII.

You'd think people would learn from history, but it has a funny way of repeating itself.

I've said time and time again that all this apathy and pacifism, along with the appeasement mentality of half this country is going to bring about serious consequences. Unfortunately, the average American won't realize it until American Idol can't broadcast :roll:

 

[ranmaniac]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: tvarad
Like the Germans and Japanese pre-WWII, when they didn't stand up to the Nazis and militant imperialism respectively, they became part of the problem which was solved via WWII. If "peaceful Muslims" do not stand up to the Islamo-fascists within their midst, they too become part of the problem. It is better to start pointing fingers now like she is doing to avoid WWIII.

You'd think people would learn from history, but it has a funny way of repeating itself.

I've said time and time again that all this apathy and pacifism, along with the appeasement mentality of half this country is going to bring about serious consequences. Unfortunately, the average American won't realize it until American Idol can't broadcast :roll:

Yeah that trillion dollars or more spent on the Iraq war is nothing but American apathy and pacifism. Our society should be lucky that we have such insightful intellectuals such as yourself to point out the flaws of American policy.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: Narmer
It's a well-known fact that Hirshi is a habitual liar. She's in need of lashes for obfuscation and outright lies. Furthermore, I fail to understand why people get angry at the people that are angry at them without asking the incredibly simple question of "Why?". It boggles the mind.

Or maybe some people don't want to know the truth and prefer to protray themselves as "victims" as they plunder other nations in the name of "terrorism and WMDs".

Oh, and she really needs to get laid.

Maybe she could get laid if she hadn't had the innards of her vagina cut out with scissors and sewn shut with just enough of a hole to urinate out of. Gotta love that Islamic culture . . .

Those rituals have less to do with Islamic culture than African culture. You need to learn your history before speaking. Besides, the way she speaks in apocalyptic terms puts her in the same category as all those losers that've never gotten laid before. One night with a man and she'll be more relaxed and able to speak in a coherent and intelligent tone without frothing at the mouth.

I've had my fair share of sex, and not once did the girl end up smarter than she was before. THAT'S the problem with this woman, she's not uptight...she's just stupid.

And honestly, so are you. I disagree with what she says, and I don't think she's being at all intelligent or reasonable about it. That said, your completely unnecessary attack on her is just out of line. Could we possibly behave like civilized people, even when we don't agree?

She certainly deserves everything I throw at her. That bitch is a liar. She got thrown out of Denmark for lying on her immigration application. And here she is again lying about a religion, demonizing an entire people. If you think I'm stupid for calling her out and suggesting she gets laid and relax a little, then you need to have your head examined.

I'm not saying she's a good person or that her views are intelligent or informed. I'm just saying there are levels of reasonable debate, and civilized ways to object to what someone says. And quite honestly, being a misogynistic asshole is not a great way to make an argument. Especially when you are trying to defend a faith not exactly world renowned for the deep level of respect it's practitioners afford women.

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: Narmer
It's a well-known fact that Hirshi is a habitual liar. She's in need of lashes for obfuscation and outright lies. Furthermore, I fail to understand why people get angry at the people that are angry at them without asking the incredibly simple question of "Why?". It boggles the mind.

Or maybe some people don't want to know the truth and prefer to protray themselves as "victims" as they plunder other nations in the name of "terrorism and WMDs".

Oh, and she really needs to get laid.

Maybe she could get laid if she hadn't had the innards of her vagina cut out with scissors and sewn shut with just enough of a hole to urinate out of. Gotta love that Islamic culture . . .

Those rituals have less to do with Islamic culture than African culture. You need to learn your history before speaking. Besides, the way she speaks in apocalyptic terms puts her in the same category as all those losers that've never gotten laid before. One night with a man and she'll be more relaxed and able to speak in a coherent and intelligent tone without frothing at the mouth.

Maybe her demeanor has something to do with seeing her good friend get killed as a message to her and anyone else for speaking out.


NSFW. Actual picture of Theo van Gogh with two knifes stuck in his chest with a note from his murderer for the film he made with Hirsi Ali.

A lot of people in the West like to speak out claiming free speech, wonder how many would open their mouths after receiving a message like that especially if they have family that could be put in jeopardy?

Background on relationship between Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Submission
Working from a script written by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, van Gogh created the 10-minute movie Submission. The movie deals with the topic of violence against women in Islamic societies; telling the stories of four abused Muslim women. The title itself, "Submission", is a translation of the word "Islam" into English. In the film, women's naked bodies are veiled with semi-transparent shrouds as they kneel in prayer, telling their stories as if they are speaking to Allah. Qur'anic verses unfavourable to women are projected onto their bodies in Arabic. After the movie was released in 2004, both van Gogh and Hirsi Ali received death threats. Van Gogh did not take these very seriously and refused any protection, reportedly telling Ayaan Hirsi Ali: "Who would want to kill the village idiot?"[citation needed]


Van Gogh's murder

Mohammed Bouyeri assassinated van Gogh in the early morning of Tuesday November 2, 2004, in Amsterdam, in front of the Amsterdam East borough office (stadsdeelkantoor) on the corner of the Linnaeusstraat and Tweede Oosterparkstraat, while he was bicycling to work. He shot him eight times with an HS 2000 handgun, and Van Gogh died on the spot. Bouyeri then cut van Gogh's throat, nearly decapitating him, and stabbed him in the chest. Two knives were left implanted in his torso, one attaching a five-page note to his body. The note (Text) threatened Western governments, Jews and Ayaan Hirsi Ali (who went into hiding). The note also contained references to the ideologies of the Egyptian organization Takfir wal-Hijra.

The killer, Mohammed Bouyeri, a 26-year-old Dutch citizen, was apprehended by the police after being shot in the leg. Although born in Amsterdam, well-educated and apparently well-integrated, Bouyeri has alleged terrorist ties with the Dutch Hofstad Network. He was also charged with the attempted murder of a police officer and bystander, illegal possession of a firearm, and conspiring to assassinate others, including Hirsi Ali. He was convicted on July 26, 2005 and sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole

 

[tvarad]

ranmaniac:

"Yeah that trillion dollars or more spent on the Iraq war is nothing but American apathy and pacifism. Our society should be lucky that we have such insightful intellectuals such as yourself to point out the flaws of American policy. "

No one has said that mistakes are not made by democracies. The Iraq war happened in the post 9/11 confusion that was taken advantage of by a certain group of people. And there has been vehement opposition to it in all Western democracies, which is what is keeping a check on their ambitions. And the fact that it is an election year in the U.S. will provide further introspection on Iraq.

But there is no side-stepping from the fact that the Islamic world is throwing up the same kind of goons that German and Japan did in the '30s, who will brook no opposition to their tribal view of the world and want to take control to execute that vision.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: tvarad
But there is no side-stepping from the fact that the Islamic world is throwing up the same kind of goons that German and Japan did in the '30s, who will brook no opposition to their tribal view of the world and want to take control to execute that vision.

QFT. :thumbsup:

 

[Narmer]

:laugh: You guys that like to categorize all Muslims as if they are one political bloc go ahead with your delusions and keep attacking them and invading their countries. When a nuke goes off in a Western capital, that's when I'm sure "the gloves will come off." But you'd only be digging yourself deeper. Hitler tried the same shit with Jews, blaming them for everything that was wrong with Germany. Look at how well that turned out.

Good luck with your muslim-hunting. This may be a tough one, but I'm willing to guess they'll out-live you.

 

[tvarad]

Narmer,
You are exhibiting a siege mentality typical of current Islamic thought the minute serious questions are raised about where the Islamic world's relations with the West and other democracies are headed.

 

[tvarad]

One more thing,
Your reference to Hitler blaming the Jews (and, I might add WWI allies, non-Aryans, handicapped etc.) for the woes of Germany when referencing the Islamic world is apt. But it is the leaders of the Islamic world who are indulging in a similar blame game to a) grab and maintain their hold on power b) draw attention away from the fact that the Islamic world is in serious need of a kind of renaissance that Europe went through in the 1400s/1500s and Japan, India, China etc. have gone through in the 19th and 20th century.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: Narmer
:laugh: You guys that like to categorize all Muslims as if they are one political bloc go ahead with your delusions and keep attacking them and invading their countries. When a nuke goes off in a Western capital, that's when I'm sure "the gloves will come off." But you'd only be digging yourself deeper. Hitler tried the same shit with Jews, blaming them for everything that was wrong with Germany. Look at how well that turned out.

Good luck with your muslim-hunting. This may be a tough one, but I'm willing to guess they'll out-live you.

You know Narmer, this is what I completely don't understand about folks like you (I don't know if you're Muslim or not, so I'll leave it as "folks like you"), and here it is:

Do you have any concept what's going to happen when a WMD type weapon is used on the US?

There aren't going to be any UN resolutions, no "coalition's", no with us or against us. The American public is going to go absolutely apesh1t - the sentiment right after 9/11 will look like general I hate going to work on Monday - and the very first absolute people who are going to start paying with "collarteral damage" type attacks are innocent Muslims around any and all known/suspected Muslim radicals.

You think Iraq has been bad for Muslims? Afghanistan? That's the US military vastly restrained. Do you think the US public is going to give a F*ck about Achmed (and more than they even do now?) if a WMD-type weapon is used here on US soil? There's going to be no restraint, no understanding, no compassion. This isn't some I'm a Rambo wannabe keyboard commando talking, this is what the American public are going to demand. The military Leadership will be literally frothing at the mouth to finally be totally gloves off. No way the POTUS - and you can forget about Congress being the rational check, we've seen what p*ssies they all are in the past 7 years - is not going to cut US armed forces/assets loose.

Given all this - and, it's a given, no matter how bad no one wants it to happen - you'd think "people like you" would be absolutely making sure/taking steps to reign in these F'ing wacko looney nutjob Islamic radicals.

But no, you take issue with the West dealing with radicals the Muslims themselves should be dealing with, so you go and bash the West (which means you're de facto on the radicals side).

Seriously, to what end do you think radical Islam spreading is going to bring the average Muslim?????

Chuck

 

[yllus]

I agree with her on exactly one point: The West should cease being apologetic and tolerant of absolutely every viewpoint it faces, including that which cries for its collective destruction.

Tony Blair put it better than I can:

Q: Mr. President, both of you, I?d like to ask you about the big picture that you?re discussing.

BLAIR: I don?t think it actually has anything to do with a loss of American influence at all. I think we?ve got to go back and ask what changed policy, because policy has changed in the past few years.

...

And I don?t dispute part of the implication of your question at all in the sense that you look at what is happening in the Middle East, and what is happening in Iraq and Lebanon and Palestine, and of course there?s a sense of shock and frustration and anger at what is happening, and grief at the loss of innocent lives.

But it is not a reason for walking away. It?s a reason for staying the course and staying it no matter how tough it is: because the alternative is actually letting this ideology grip larger and larger numbers of people.

And it is going to be difficult. Look, we?ve got a problem even in our own Muslim communities in Europe who will half buy into some of the propaganda that?s pushed at it - the purpose of America is to suppress Islam; you know, Britain?s joined with America in the suppression of Islam.

And one of the things we?ve got to stop doing is stop apologizing for our own positions. Muslims in America, as far as I?m aware of, are free to worship.

Muslims in Britain are free to worship. We have plural societies.

You know, it?s nonsense. The propaganda is nonsense. And we?re not going to defeat this ideology until we in the West go out with sufficient confidence in our position and say, This is wrong. It?s not just wrong in its methods; it?s wrong in its ideas, it?s wrong in its ideology, it?s wrong in every single wretched reactionary thing about it.

And it will be a long struggle, I?m afraid. But there?s no alternative but to stay the course with it. And we will.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: yllus
I agree with her on exactly one point: The West should cease being apologetic and tolerant of absolutely every viewpoint it faces, including that which cries for its collective destruction.
...

It's interesting the poorly chosen way you phrased that, because it highlights exactly the fine line we're walking when it comes to tolerance. See, what you said could either be interpreted as "we should not be tolerant of ANY viewpoints" or "there are some viewpoints we shouldn't tolerate". Now I know what you meant, but the problem is that what is just a natural awkwardness of the English language is also represented in the way we approach this issue.

What you're saying is absolutely ridiculous, we don't "tolerate" violent extremist views. What we tolerate is religious and cultural beliefs that are reasonable, but different. Yet for some reason these things are conflated to a truly silly extent. Muslim cab drivers who don't want to drive around with alcohol are treated the same as terrorists who blow up buildings. People who reasonably object to cartoons insulting their religion are treated the same as people who send death threats to express their displeasure. Muslims who don't want certain things taught in school are treated like terrorists who hijack airplanes. Because that linguistic nuance is actually what you're thinking, it ISN'T about tolerating violent extremist views, it's about not tolerating anything remotely unusual.

And THAT is the big problem, separating the very necessary conflict with violent extremists from the xenophobic conflict with people who speak a funny language and pray to a different God. For doing exactly the same things as any social group in society, including, I might add, many wester Christians, the entire Islamic society is lumped in with the people who really are bad guys.

Edit: Cliff Notes: The problem is that everyone talks about fighting assholes who hijack planes and fly them into buildings, but they always want to do it by going after the Minneapolis cab driver who won't transport alcohol in his cab.

 

[Narmer]

You people are making the first elementary mistakes of: you don't even know who you're "enemy" is. Muslims live in almost every country on Earth, even the successful ones.

The second mistake you're making is doing the same thing Hitler did against the Jews. When a few communist Jews in Soviet Russia declared war on Germany, Hitler used it to fight against all Jews, killing 6 million in the process. Now that bin Laden has declared war on the West, those who failed History 101 and Human Nature 101 are frothing at the mouth to deal with the "Islamic problem." You're all pathetic.

Again, like I said at the very beginning of this thread, you need to ask yourself "Why?" and maybe you'll get a good answer. It is you, with your advanced military hardware and satellites, that want to pick a fight with an entire religion. It is you who listen to the extremists and see in them all muslims. And it is you who will never win a battle against an entire religion. You're fools if you think Islam can be "defeated" or whatever.

This "war on terror" really is an exercise in futility.But it'll be one where you have gullible leaders like GWB will make powerful mistakes that will get millions killed in the process.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Narmer
You people are making the first elementary mistakes of: you don't even know who you're "enemy" is. Muslims live in almost every country on Earth, even the successful ones.

The second mistake you're making is doing the same thing Hitler did against the Jews. When a few communist Jews in Soviet Russia declared war on Germany, Hitler used it to fight against all Jews, killing 6 million in the process. Now that bin Laden has declared war on the West, those who failed History 101 and Human Nature 101 are frothing at the mouth to deal with the "Islamic problem." You're all pathetic.

Again, like I said at the very beginning of this thread, you need to ask yourself "Why?" and maybe you'll get a good answer. It is you, with your advanced military hardware and satellites, that want to pick a fight with an entire religion. It is you who listen to the extremists and see in them all muslims. And it is you who will never win a battle against an entire. You're fools if you think Islam can be "defeated" or whatever.

This "war on terror" really is an exercise in futility.But it'll be one where you have gullible leaders like GWB will make powerful mistakes that will get millions killed in the process.

There's something pretty ironic about you bitching about "you people" stereotyping an entire group based on the actions of a few.

And by the way, it's not entirely clear from your posts that you don't go too far the other way. While I can't get on board with the "war on Islam" people, I do think there are certain Muslim extremists who need to be dealt with...and I'm not so sure you think so.

 

[DarkThinker]

What a bunch of ILLUSIONISTS you guys are. Your facts are misleading mostly and when that is pointed out you (by a minority here) you somehow jump and explain it away! Thank you magomago, ranmaniac, Narmer and others for pointing out the hypocrisy and ignorance of this click.

First it was Islam encourages mistreatment of women (mutilations in the case and other stuff), then it turned out it had nothing to do with it. Then you moved to flag burning then that crap turned out to be so common in the world that no one of you cared to object or find out. Then it turned out Ali is a lier and when it comes to the "FACTS" she stated, a big liar and all of the sudden that is fine. Next stop Ali admits that she took this campaign on Islam and Muslims of all types for her own advantage and that would be explained away too.

What I see in this thread, is a clear indiscriminate and active campaign by Jaskalas and his click promoting the destruction of Islam and all who say they want to follow it or do follow it in any way. Not even moderate Muslims got spared. So a moderate Muslim who has spent his whole life fighting extremism either with his tongue or his hand or even both finds out that he is looked down as the same way the extremist are looked down by the west, then he is like WTF MAN?

I have no respect for you people, keep your head in the sand and keep shouting " MURDER!" while ignoring the "MURDERS" of your own kind. It's the murder of intellect and alienation and you guys are doing a very well job at it too I might add.

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: Narmer
:laugh: You guys that like to categorize all Muslims as if they are one political bloc go ahead with your delusions and keep attacking them and invading their countries. When a nuke goes off in a Western capital, that's when I'm sure "the gloves will come off." But you'd only be digging yourself deeper. Hitler tried the same shit with Jews, blaming them for everything that was wrong with Germany. Look at how well that turned out.

Good luck with your muslim-hunting. This may be a tough one, but I'm willing to guess they'll out-live you.

You know Narmer, this is what I completely don't understand about folks like you (I don't know if you're Muslim or not, so I'll leave it as "folks like you"), and here it is:

Do you have any concept what's going to happen when a WMD type weapon is used on the US?

There aren't going to be any UN resolutions, no "coalition's", no with us or against us. The American public is going to go absolutely apesh1t - the sentiment right after 9/11 will look like general I hate going to work on Monday - and the very first absolute people who are going to start paying with "collarteral damage" type attacks are innocent Muslims around any and all known/suspected Muslim radicals.

You think Iraq has been bad for Muslims? Afghanistan? That's the US military vastly restrained. Do you think the US public is going to give a F*ck about Achmed (and more than they even do now?) if a WMD-type weapon is used here on US soil? There's going to be no restraint, no understanding, no compassion. This isn't some I'm a Rambo wannabe keyboard commando talking, this is what the American public are going to demand. The military Leadership will be literally frothing at the mouth to finally be totally gloves off. No way the POTUS - and you can forget about Congress being the rational check, we've seen what p*ssies they all are in the past 7 years - is not going to cut US armed forces/assets loose.

Given all this - and, it's a given, no matter how bad no one wants it to happen - you'd think "people like you" would be absolutely making sure/taking steps to reign in these F'ing wacko looney nutjob Islamic radicals.

But no, you take issue with the West dealing with radicals the Muslims themselves should be dealing with, so you go and bash the West (which means you're de facto on the radicals side).

Seriously, to what end do you think radical Islam spreading is going to bring the average Muslim?????

Chuck

WHAT A PILE OF BS! Another WMD boogeyman argument. And I quiet find your threats (either direct or indirect) as a brief summary of the west's relation with everyone else. Let's destroy countries let's bully everyone around and not ask questions, those who fight us will be labeled terrorist and the innocent will be labeled collateral and no one can stop us. So if some dipsht terrorist gets some kind of mini-WMD and detonates it in the US every Muslim around the world gets it????? That is your version of civilization? And that is better than what the terrorists are preaching how??

And sadly, that is pretty much how I expect the American public to react against us Muslims and Arabs here in the States should a nuke get blown up. There are so many ignorants in here (and I have found quiet a sample here in this very thread believe it or not). We would be hunted down like animals if they can if not worse and mustered up in camps awaiting death.

These are the cultures we moderate logical Muslims are facing, a bunch of backward regressive retards headed by Bin laden and the Iranian mullah's on one hand and on the other hand, a bunch of foaming at the mouth lets bring Christ back Muslims are the new devil crazy nutjobs. And we are stuck right in the middle of this fsckfest.
This fscking sucks in more ways than you or any other nutjob can understand.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: Narmer
You people are making the first elementary mistakes of: you don't even know who you're "enemy" is. Muslims live in almost every country on Earth, even the successful ones.

The second mistake you're making is doing the same thing Hitler did against the Jews. When a few communist Jews in Soviet Russia declared war on Germany, Hitler used it to fight against all Jews, killing 6 million in the process. Now that bin Laden has declared war on the West, those who failed History 101 and Human Nature 101 are frothing at the mouth to deal with the "Islamic problem." You're all pathetic.

Again, like I said at the very beginning of this thread, you need to ask yourself "Why?" and maybe you'll get a good answer. It is you, with your advanced military hardware and satellites, that want to pick a fight with an entire religion. It is you who listen to the extremists and see in them all muslims. And it is you who will never win a battle against an entire religion. You're fools if you think Islam can be "defeated" or whatever.

This "war on terror" really is an exercise in futility.But it'll be one where you have gullible leaders like GWB will make powerful mistakes that will get millions killed in the process.

Narmer....no one is confused but you.

The Average American doesn't give two sh1ts about the guy down the street, let alone some Muslim's 8,000 miles away. Other than being inconvienced with watching the bad news in the media about the WoT, most American's give it but a once in a while casual thought. So this "We see all Muslim's as terrarists" delusion you have is just that, a delusion. If we did, then the milllions of Muslims here in the US would be far far more scorned and mistrusted than even you think they are.

The potential threat problem Narmer is not the vast vast vast majority of Muslims, it's the absolute looney wacko's and the one's in power who use them to further whatever cause (but sometimes that's one and the same) that are the problem.

And where the vast vast vast majority of Muslims are going to go and do a big Oh Sh1t, we really F'd up there on is when - eventually (just give it time, it'll happen) - some radical Muslim gets some type of WMD, brings it to mainland US, and kicks it off. NOTE: This is not "WMD paranoia" or some other type sh1t, this is just taking a long view of where Islam at its fringes is headed at the moment and gaming it out over 2-3 decades, at most.

And so Narmer, we'll be at that critical juncture in history when the American public was tolerant (through ignorance, because truly they could really give 2 sh1ts one way or the other, and it's the furthest thing from their minds), and ate another attack on our mainland in the face. Except with the WMD-type of weapon, it won't be 3,000 civs, it'll be lots more. It won't be 99% instant death, it'll be 100% constant media coverage of corpses and people dying in the hospitals. Plus, with the added bonus a WMD-type weapon itself brings as a "WMD".

When that happens Narmer - and it's going to happen, because there's far too many with lacadaisical attitudes like yours, who can afford to not give it a seconds thought since you bear no responsibility for others - it's not going to be non-Muslims suffering. A veritable sh1tstorm is going to hit the Muslim world because the entire US will go off the bender. Do you understand that?????

Now, we (excluding the redneck Kill'em all and Let God Sort'em Out folks) all know that it's not the Muslim population at large that wishes us harm...we all know it's the fringe loonies. Instead of playing games about it, Muslims themselves could be taking actions against these worthless F'ers so it'd never come to that, but, by complacentcy, they're inviting chaos. Hope it was eventually worth it.... isgust;

Chuck

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Narmer
You people are making the first elementary mistakes of: you don't even know who you're "enemy" is. Muslims live in almost every country on Earth, even the successful ones.

The second mistake you're making is doing the same thing Hitler did against the Jews. When a few communist Jews in Soviet Russia declared war on Germany, Hitler used it to fight against all Jews, killing 6 million in the process. Now that bin Laden has declared war on the West, those who failed History 101 and Human Nature 101 are frothing at the mouth to deal with the "Islamic problem." You're all pathetic.

Again, like I said at the very beginning of this thread, you need to ask yourself "Why?" and maybe you'll get a good answer. It is you, with your advanced military hardware and satellites, that want to pick a fight with an entire religion. It is you who listen to the extremists and see in them all muslims. And it is you who will never win a battle against an entire. You're fools if you think Islam can be "defeated" or whatever.

This "war on terror" really is an exercise in futility.But it'll be one where you have gullible leaders like GWB will make powerful mistakes that will get millions killed in the process.

There's something pretty ironic about you bitching about "you people" stereotyping an entire group based on the actions of a few.

And by the way, it's not entirely clear from your posts that you don't go too far the other way. While I can't get on board with the "war on Islam" people, I do think there are certain Muslim extremists who need to be dealt with...and I'm not so sure you think so.

People need to stop looking at 9-11 as some defining moment in human history. Four million people were killed between 1998 and 2004 in the Congo and Americans barely lost sleep over it. bin Laden has killed far more muslims than he has Americans and you guys are obsessed with Islam per se? It's simply stupid. There is a problem in the muslim. But it's not islam. The problem is the hypocrisy of Western foreign policy. THAT'S IT. When people get upset over it, you label them a terrorist. How childish.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: Narmer
There is a problem in the muslim. But it's not islam. The problem is the hypocrisy of Western foreign policy. THAT'S IT.

I'm sure you meant to say that U.S. foreign policy plays a role, not that it's the only problem. Because to suggest U.S. foreign policy is the sole reason for the rage of Islamic fundamentalists or the backwardness of Muslim ME politics is, well, to completely ignore reality and be utterly misinformed.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: Narmer
You people are making the first elementary mistakes of: you don't even know who you're "enemy" is. Muslims live in almost every country on Earth, even the successful ones.

The second mistake you're making is doing the same thing Hitler did against the Jews. When a few communist Jews in Soviet Russia declared war on Germany, Hitler used it to fight against all Jews, killing 6 million in the process. Now that bin Laden has declared war on the West, those who failed History 101 and Human Nature 101 are frothing at the mouth to deal with the "Islamic problem." You're all pathetic.

Again, like I said at the very beginning of this thread, you need to ask yourself "Why?" and maybe you'll get a good answer. It is you, with your advanced military hardware and satellites, that want to pick a fight with an entire religion. It is you who listen to the extremists and see in them all muslims. And it is you who will never win a battle against an entire religion. You're fools if you think Islam can be "defeated" or whatever.

This "war on terror" really is an exercise in futility.But it'll be one where you have gullible leaders like GWB will make powerful mistakes that will get millions killed in the process.

Narmer....no one is confused but you.

The Average American doesn't give two sh1ts about the guy down the street, let alone some Muslim's 8,000 miles away. Other than being inconvienced with watching the bad news in the media about the WoT, most American's give it but a once in a while casual thought. So this "We see all Muslim's as terrarists" delusion you have is just that, a delusion. If we did, then the milllions of Muslims here in the US would be far far more scorned and mistrusted than even you think they are.

The potential threat problem Narmer is not the vast vast vast majority of Muslims, it's the absolute looney wacko's and the one's in power who use them to further whatever cause (but sometimes that's one and the same) that are the problem.

And where the vast vast vast majority of Muslims are going to go and do a big Oh Sh1t, we really F'd up there on is when - eventually (just give it time, it'll happen) - some radical Muslim gets some type of WMD, brings it to mainland US, and kicks it off. NOTE: This is not "WMD paranoia" or some other type sh1t, this is just taking a long view of where Islam at its fringes is headed at the moment and gaming it out over 2-3 decades, at most.

And so Narmer, we'll be at that critical juncture in history when the American public was tolerant (through ignorance, because truly they could really give 2 sh1ts one way or the other, and it's the furthest thing from their minds), and ate another attack on our mainland in the face. Except with the WMD-type of weapon, it won't be 3,000 civs, it'll be lots more. It won't be 99% instant death, it'll be 100% constant media coverage of corpses and people dying in the hospitals. Plus, with the added bonus a WMD-type weapon itself brings as a "WMD".

When that happens Narmer - and it's going to happen, because there's far too many with lacadaisical attitudes like yours, who can afford to not give it a seconds thought since you bear no responsibility for others - it's not going to be non-Muslims suffering. A veritable sh1tstorm is going to hit the Muslim world because the entire US will go off the bender. Do you understand that?????

Now, we (excluding the redneck Kill'em all and Let God Sort'em Out folks) all know that it's not the Muslim population at large that wishes us harm...we all know it's the fringe loonies. Instead of playing games about it, Muslims themselves could be taking actions against these worthless F'ers so it'd never come to that, but, by complacentcy, they're inviting chaos. Hope it was eventually worth it.... isgust;

Chuck

There are muslims that are doing something about it. As Darkthinker pointed out, there are muslims caught in the middle. Some people don't give a damn about Al Qaeda and America. They just want a country that belongs to them, not some "king" or "President for life" that acts like an American stooge. What happens to people like that? They are automatically labelled as terrorists and the world wants to see them killed.

BTW, if you feel so strongly about what you just wrote, you need to be condemning that bitch and Jaskalas for his beliefs.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

Originally posted by: Narmer
There is a problem in the muslim. But it's not islam. The problem is the hypocrisy of Western foreign policy. THAT'S IT.

I'm sure you meant to say that U.S. foreign policy plays a role, not that it's the only problem. Because to suggest U.S. foreign policy is the sole reason for the rage of Islamic fundamentalists or the backwardness of Muslim ME politics is, well, to completely ignore reality and be utterly misinformed.

You're right. It plays a huge role. You know why? because when the american stooges have no competition, nothing changes and the people remain backward. When the stooges label their enemies as terrorists and the US legitimizes their actions, then it hurts those who want to move forward. American hypocrisy of promoting democracy only when it suits her is feeding the hatred of America in the Arab world.