The Theism/Atheism Mega-thread Hullabaloo Extravaganza

[Retro Rob]

He is being honest though, I can't say I care for him nor you; but you are dodging the hard questions.

He can look it up himself if he really wants to know. This is not a tough question, its answer is very simple:

I will call to account the A·mal′ek·ites for what they did to Israel when they opposed them along their way coming up from Egypt

1 Samuel 15:2-33

That's why all of the Amalekites (even the women and children) were wiped out...they were sworn enemies of Israel.

They're not interested in an "answer" -- they're only interested in pushing this idea that we follow a God who murders innocent children.

A two second google search would have given them these Bible verses.

I guess you aren't familiar with the antics of JD and Jackstar -- spend some more time in these threads...you'll learn.

 

[jackstar7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_The_Children_(politics)

This is why I simply ignore you here.

You are confused. 'Think of the children' is a plea about currently living children and how some thing might affect them negatively. I'm talking about this book of supposed history in which your God specifically orders that children be killed.

I'm not pleading for you to consider how the bible affects kids these days. I'm talking about an event within this book that you have claimed has a historical validity, and the specifics of how that event puts your god at odds with his own rules. He orders a servant to murder after specifically telling all of his people to never murder.

I use the children because what could those children have done to so injure god that they needed to be destroyed?

And your citation about them being enemies seems disingenuous at best. You're not answering how the children were enemies of Israel. It's an absurd thing you're being made to defend and rather than looking at the thing and saying it is absurd, you instead suggest god has a defensible position.

God ordered people to murder children.

 

[Retro Rob]

I'm not pleading for you to consider how the bible affects kids these days. I'm talking about an event within this book that you have claimed has a historical validity, and the specifics of how that event puts your god at odds with his own rules. He orders a servant to murder after specifically telling all of his people to never murder.

I use the children because what could those children have done to so injure god that they needed to be destroyed?

See above post. If that isn't enough, use the google links I provided. There are several cites that covers the reason(s) why scholars think the women and children were killed, because I don't know exactly why God did what he did.

 

[jackstar7]

See above post. If that isn't enough, use the google links I provided. There are several cites that covers the reason(s) why scholars think the women and children were killed, because I don't know exactly why God did what he did.

It's absurd that it requires great scholarship to explain a god who makes people break his rules... and certainly doesn't lend credence to the validity of said god.

 

[Retro Rob]

Alkemyst, you said:

He is being honest though, I can't say I care for him nor you; but you are dodging the hard questions.

Then I said:

They're not interested in an "answer" -- they're only interested in pushing this idea that we follow a God who murders innocent children.

Then, as predicted, old jackstar couldn't help himself:

It's an absurd thing you're being made to defend and rather than looking at the thing and saying it is absurd, you instead suggest god has a defensible position.

God ordered people to murder children.

Right on time! Trust me, these guys aren't worth the time.

 

[alkemyst]

He can look it up himself if he really wants to know. This is not a tough question, its answer is very simple:

1 Samuel 15:2-33

That's why all of the Amalekites (even the women and children) were wiped out...they were sworn enemies of Israel.

They're not interested in an "answer" -- they're only interested in pushing this idea that we follow a God who murders innocent children.

A two second google search would have given them these Bible verses.

I guess you aren't familiar with the antics of JD and Jackstar -- spend some more time in these threads...you'll learn.

I can agree somewhat, I have posted about things here and people are quick to ask give me a link. Much of the things I discuss don't have easy links, you need paid subscriptions or enrollment at a college.

I have tried to find some of the research I know exists online, but it's not free online.

For something so public domain, just saying read: [link] would be easy.

Most just want to fight here, not solve a common problem.

Which is why God sometimes fucks his people.

It becomes insane.

 

[alkemyst]

Alkemyst, you said:

I was just referring to JD50, not jackstar....I don't really know him.

 

[alzan]

Alkemyst, you said:



Then I said:



Then, as predicted, old jackstar couldn't help himself:



Right on time! Trust me, these guys aren't worth the time.

Obviously we are worth the time since you keep coming to this thread and so many past threads similar in topic and tone.

But back to the original question in the OP, "Is there a compelling reason to believe a god or gods exist?"

I truly don't think so. I remain open-minded to the possibility but I think it likely we'll all be dead and forgotten before the it is known for sure one way or the other. For myself the discussion is if nothing else a relatively harmless way to pass the time, and sometimes more than a little amusing.

Atheism/theism, evolutionary theory/creation "theory", all make interesting and lively discussion topics; unfortunately for some on any side(s) pettiness and pride get in the way of truly meaningful conversation, virtual though it may be.

 

[alkemyst]

It's absurd that it requires great scholarship to explain a god who makes people break his rules... and certainly doesn't lend credence to the validity of said god.

You can't even tolerate this guy's posts. Do you think a divine being would be as patient?

 

[Retro Rob]

Obviously we are worth the time since you keep coming to this thread and so many past threads similar in topic and tone.

Most are worth the time, but I was explicitly referring to jackstar and JD.

 

[SlowSpyder]

How have I defected? I explained why I don't respond to his "evil God MURDERS innocent children" illogical appeals.

As the link showed, "what about the children" is specifically designed to shut down debates because it hits humans dead-smack at their emotions.

Like I said, you all are very predictable.

No, all wrong. It is said in this case because in what reality would we ever accept executing kids as a proper punishment for something that their parents did? God killed thousands of kids in the bible. Tell me what crime an infant or toddler could possibly be guilty of today to warrant execution, please. In what reality is executing a child the proper response to something an adult does?

This isn't about emotion for me, but logic (see a theme with my thoughts on religon? LOGIC). I can think of at least one example off the top of my head where the christian god specifically targeted children and only children for things they had no control over, probably no interest in, and many likely had no knowledge of the goings on as they were too young to comprehend.

Seriously, to me that's fucked up and so is defending it.

<snip>

I read the link. I still don't see how any of it proves that jesus was divine or the christian god the one real god. But thank you for providing it.

 

[alkemyst]

But back to the original question in the OP, "Is there a compelling reason to believe a god or gods exist?"

I truly don't think so. I remain open-minded to the possibility but I think it likely we'll all be dead and forgotten before the it is known for sure one way or the other. For myself the discussion is if nothing else a relatively harmless way to pass the time, and sometimes more than a little amusing.

Atheism/theism, evolutionary theory/creation "theory", all make interesting and lively discussion topics; unfortunately for some on any side(s) pettiness and pride get in the way of truly meaningful conversation, virtual though it may be.

That doesn't answer the question though.

Also it has nothing to do with "virtual", these are things we can witness everyday if one gets out and about, of course. Too many are focused on being islands today though, so they have no clue.

The masses fighting this battle don't know the science, theology, or history behind the argument they fight. They rely on "I heard it from a friend of a friend".

People are their worst enemy.

I have been attending church lately and it's sad being cut off, disrespected, etc prior to getting to that service and seeing that same mother f**ker there.

 

[alkemyst]

No, all wrong. It is said in this case because in what reality would we ever accept executing kids as a proper punishment for something that their parents did? God killed thousands of kids in the bible. Tell me what crime an infant or toddler could possibly be guilty of today to warrant execution, please. In what reality is executing a child the proper response to something an adult does?

This isn't about emotion for me, but logic (see a theme with my thoughts on religon? LOGIC). I can think of at least one example off the top of my head where the christian god specifically targeted children and only children for things they had no control over, probably no interest in, and many likely had no knowledge of the goings on as they were too young to comprehend.

Seriously, to me that's fucked up and so is defending it.

Since you swear by LOGIC, let me explain. All things want to reproduce. It's inherent in us. There are outliers that don't whether by any reason they have from they feel unfit to be a parent to it's just inconvenient or worse/darker reasons.

So let's just say you are a family man or woman. You love your children, they will ensure you are put back into our world when you die.

A God(s) comes and tells you you must do something. If you don't perhaps you face everyone being wiped out.

I am sure many here would say if a real God talked to them, they'd tell him to pound sand and if he doesn't put him on anon and see how he does.

I read the link. I still don't see how any of it proves that jesus was divine or the christian god the one real god. But thank you for providing it.

It doesn't it's about the coincidences that occurred.

You really need to read and live more to understand this.

 

[jackstar7]

Most are worth the time, but I was explicitly referring to jackstar and JD.

Are you saying that my posts do nothing to contribute to the discourse?

That's a shame.

 

[JEDIYoda]

It's absurd that it requires great scholarship to explain a god who makes people break his rules... and certainly doesn't lend credence to the validity of said god.

ABSURD...HOW SO ? Even the scriptures say that God`s thoughts are higher than our thoughts... Isaiah 55:8, 9......

 

[SlowSpyder]

Since you swear by LOGIC, let me explain. All things want to reproduce. It's inherent in us. There are outliers that don't whether by any reason they have from they feel unfit to be a parent to it's just inconvenient or worse/darker reasons.

So let's just say you are a family man or woman. You love your children, they will ensure you are put back into our world when you die.

A God(s) comes and tells you you must do something. If you don't perhaps you face everyone being wiped out.

I am sure many here would say if a real God talked to them, they'd tell him to pound sand and if he doesn't put him on anon and see how he does.

I am not sure I understand the last part of your post, so apologies if this response is a bit off from what you posted. But from the rest of it, I understand why a human may follow god's commands. But I don't understand why god would kill kids that have nothing to do with the sin being commited and have no pull to change it even if they did understand.

As an example, god commands the angel of death to kill each first born child in Egypt to get the Pharoh to release the Jews he had in captivity. I know I'm not a god and am only human, but would you consider that moral? Our legal system punishes those that commit the crime, not their innocent family members. I have a hard time with the child killing by a god who supposedly is the creator of morals.

It isn't that I don't understand that whatever god commands would be moral by default. It is that I think very few christians would be ok with a justice system that did this as it wouldn't be moral. Yet god is said to set our morals from his teachings? To me it is just another example of how things don't add up to me.

It doesn't it's about the coincidences that occurred.

You really need to read and live more to understand this.

Fair enough, jesus said a temple would be destroyed and provided some details and it indeed was destroyed how he said. But considering the number of failed prophecies as well as prophecies that came true in other relgions, I don't know that this really separates christianity from the pack in any way.

 

[alkemyst]

I am not sure I understand the last part of your post, so apologies if this response is a bit off from what you posted. But from the rest of it, I understand why a human may follow god's commands. But I don't understand why god would kill kids that have nothing to do with the sin being commited and have no pull to change it even if they did understand.

As an example, god commands the angel of death to kill each first born child in Egypt to get the Pharoh to release the Jews he had in captivity. I know I'm not a god and am only human, but would you consider that moral? Our legal system punishes those that commit the crime, not their innocent family members. I have a hard time with the child killing by a god who supposedly is the creator of morals.

It isn't that I don't understand that whatever god commands would be moral by default. It is that I think very few christians would be ok with a justice system that did this as it wouldn't be moral. Yet god is said to set our morals from his teachings? To me it is just another example of how things don't add up to me.

A man's children/family were some of the most important things in the past.

If you cannot understand that, it proves you are ignorant.

The kids are the ways to the means.

Fair enough, jesus said a temple would be destroyed and provided some details and it indeed was destroyed how he said. But considering the number of failed prophecies as well as prophecies that came true in other relgions, I don't know that this really separates christianity from the pack in any way.

He said a specific temple though and was there and in view from that temple.

That's the history behind it.

 

[soulcougher73]

Fair enough, jesus said a temple would be destroyed and provided some details and it indeed was destroyed how he said. But considering the number of failed prophecies as well as prophecies that came true in other relgions, I don't know that this really separates christianity from the pack in any way.

Prophecies are easy to come by when you write a book several years after said events. Its not like they had TV where someone could make a prophecy seen and heard by millions and then 50 years later it happens exactly as described. Now that would be something.

 

[OverVolt]

Art history is one of the most interesting classes I ever took. I've heard alot about religious studies too.

 

[alkemyst]

Art history is one of the most interesting classes I ever took. I've heard alot about religious studies too.

I agree. Art History was a requirement for me. Religious studies were not. I just wanted to find out what makes so much of the world really tick.

 

[JEDIYoda]

No, all wrong. It is said in this case because in what reality would we ever accept executing kids as a proper punishment for something that their parents did? God killed thousands of kids in the bible. Tell me what crime an infant or toddler could possibly be guilty of today to warrant execution, please. In what reality is executing a child the proper response to something an adult does?

This isn't about emotion for me, but logic (see a theme with my thoughts on religon? LOGIC). I can think of at least one example off the top of my head where the christian god specifically targeted children and only children for things they had no control over, probably no interest in, and many likely had no knowledge of the goings on as they were too young to comprehend.
Seriously, to me that's fucked up and so is defending it.

<-- you do realize how screwed up you thinking sounds to anybody who is a Bible scholar?

Here are several attempts to answer questions regarding the killing of children...etc....but in order to understand the answers again you need to have an understanding of other things.......such as the a realization that those times were far different from our times.....

I am not going to try to discuss his with you because your really do have no clue and your letting your emotions run wild with no real basis except for your lack of or your unwillingness to try to understand...
Ok here look.. your main question seems to be why anywhere in the bible children and babies had to die...that is your biggest concern. I have actually researched this and found a great site that explains it. The people and situations at that time in history has to be considered...there was no SRS then to take the kids in...the first time this happen these pagans were attacking the Jew after they were saved from slavery in Egypt. It wasn't like they could call the police...they had to defend themselves. Being the desert as they were...constantly traveling...thousands of them they simply didn't have the extra resources to take in all these children. These pagans by the way were scarifying their own children to their god..throwing them alive into fire...burying them alive in their pagan temples. It really takes a complete understand of the situation to understand the why's here...

Good question...shouldn't the butchering of the Amalekite children be considered war crimes?

[Modified: Oct/2000; May 2001; added a tiny comment on 'euthanasia by humans' May 2002]

I received a thoughtful and impassioned response to my piece on "How could a God of love order the annihilation of the Canaanites"...It went into more detail in one of the more emotionally difficult areas of that piece--the consequences on the Amalekite children--and deserved to be considered carefully. This issue is and should be a stomach-churning one for all sensitive hearts (especially Christians), and this piece will have to proceed soberly and humbly through the many complexities involved herein.

I hope you take the time to read through it and his other links on this topic..it really helps us understand why God did what He did and not pre-judge Him in this respect.

To understand, you must first understand that killing and murder are two different things.

Now without purpose, just to destroy is "murder" and this is of satan. It has no purpose but to cause terror. satan also uses murder to thwart the purpose God has... using Hitler the way he tried to destroy the Israeli people is an example of trying to stop God's purpose for the nation of Israel. satan even learned his lesson in using only a single nation to murder Israeli people. So instead he uses cultures and even a religion to "attempt" to thwart God's purpose with Israel as a nation by using these cultures and religions to murder Israeli people and all those who support Israel.

Killing has purpose for God to see His will done. He's killed and He has man kill... today they are even called Ministers of God (Romans 13:4). By killing the infants, God prevented these children from growing up to become just like the adults in the city of Jericho. We don't understand the purpose all the time except to accept our purpose is to be obedient to the will of God. If His purpose is to kill all, we kill all.

They didn't participate in the wicked ways of the adult people "at that moment" but they sure would as they got older. Look at Terrorism today. If we went in and killed all radical muslims... what would be accomplished if all the children continued the terrorism in a generation????

If Joshua didn't kill all men, women, children and even the livestock, in a generation, the Israeli people would have to deal with the retribution of the children of that city for killing all the parents and leaders.

There were several times that God commanded that all be killed, including children, and also that nothing be taken as spoil, not an item to be removed. It wasn't just killing people, it was taking the enemies of God and those against God's people and not leaving anything to come up against them.

Numbers 16
21"Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them instantly." 22But they fell on their faces and said, "O God, God of the spirits of all flesh, when one man sins, will You be angry with the entire congregation?"
23Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
24"Speak to the congregation, saying, 'Get back from around the dwellings of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.'"
25Then Moses arose and went to Dathan and Abiram, with the elders of Israel following him,
26and he spoke to the congregation, saying, "Depart now from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing that belongs to them, (AD)or you will be swept away in all their sin."
27So they got back from around the dwellings of Korah, Dathan and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the doorway of their tents, along with their wives and their sons and their little ones.
28Moses said, "By this you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these deeds; for this is not my doing.
29"If these men die the death of all men or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me.
30"But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD."
31As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open;
32and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
33So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

It was all things related to what was not for God but against Him. All who were in their tents, all who offered sacrifice while unclean, all who associated with them including their wives and children were swallowed up. This is an example of children being taken and not by the hand of the sword.

We also need to remember that God is just and merciful. We see children slain, condemnation coming against them because of those who do, or should, know better. We just read that they were taken out of the world. But we MUST remember - ALL will be judged. The killing of children doesn't mean they were damned, they too will have their moment before God as we all will.

Ephesians 4
8Therefore it says,
"WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
9(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)



All were given the Gospel, all heard it as faith comes by hearing. Those who were swallowed up in Sheol heard it.


Revelation 20
12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.



God never gives one the opportunity to choose only death.


Deuteronomy 30
19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
20by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."


John 9
1As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. 2And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"
3Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.


None of this has changed, God is still the same as He was then. He's not a genocidal dictator. He has cleared a way for His people since Genesis, and will continue to do so. Our hope is in eternal life, this world and this life are but a vapor in the wind. Eventually God will destroy with that same wrath for the same reasons everything of His creation including children. While we journey here we are not left without a choice. What is good will be glorified and what is not will be destroyed.



We must trust Him, knowing that even when things are justly carried out there is also just as much, and far more, grace and mercy that is granted. As much as God is wrath, even moreso He is merciful because of Christ.



Hebrews 8
8For finding fault with them, He says,
"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11"AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12"FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

 

[SlowSpyder]

A man's children/family were some of the most important things in the past.

If you cannot understand that, it proves you are ignorant.

The kids are the ways to the means.

Uh, I do understand that. And guess what else, I understand that my child is the more important thing to me in the present time, too. But hey, if killing kids is a means to an end, then it's cool I guess. If only god had the power, intelligience, and ability to convince people without resorting to such measures.

With that in mind, you tell me, is the christian god a blood thirsty asshole or just not as able and powerful as he likes to portray himself?

He said a specific temple though and was there and in view from that temple.

That's the history behind it.

Ok, and? That's cool that jesus got that one right, but what about the many other unfufilled and wrong prophecies in the bible? What about the fulfilled prophicies in other religions?

 

[alkemyst]

Uh, I do understand that. And guess what else, I understand that my child is the more important thing to me in the present time, too. But hey, if killing kids is a means to an end, then it's cool I guess. If only god had the power, intelligience, and ability to convince people without resorting to such measures.

With that in mind, you tell me, is the christian god a blood thirsty asshole or just not as able and powerful as he likes to portray himself?





Ok, and? That's cool that jesus got that one right, but what about the many other unfufilled and wrong prophecies in the bible? What about the fulfilled prophicies in other religions?

It's not just Christianity, bro


It's clear your focus only exists inside your own life and not outside it though.

Do you think the countries of our planet have not just killed people outright because even the low risk was too much risk?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Still no compelling reason to justify a belief in a god, eh?

Is it a common belief that gods -- say, the Christian God, for example -- want to be known to every person on the planet?

If so, how is that reconciled with the apparently poor job this god is doing to make himself convincingly known among the populus?

 

[JD50]

He can look it up himself if he really wants to know. This is not a tough question, its answer is very simple:

1 Samuel 15:2-33

That's why all of the Amalekites (even the women and children) were wiped out...they were sworn enemies of Israel.

They're not interested in an "answer" -- they're only interested in pushing this idea that we follow a God who murders innocent children.

A two second google search would have given them these Bible verses.

I guess you aren't familiar with the antics of JD and Jackstar -- spend some more time in these threads...you'll learn.

You do, and you just admitted it. This it not a game of gotcha, or "antics." In what world can a child be murdered for what their parents did? You don't consider a one year old child innocent?

I'm not trying to appeal to anyone's emotions here. I genuinely cannot understand how you can condone the killing of innocent children. I could possibly understand why a god would kill adults, but we're talking about children that had no say in the matter. You don't see anything wrong with that?

And no, that bible verse that you quoted does not explain why the children were murdered. I would like to know why an all knowing, all powerful, loving god needs to kill children.