The Theism/Atheism Mega-thread Hullabaloo Extravaganza

[witeken]

About religion and culture it's a mix that you cannot separate in two, when you look at it historically. There's no culture without religion and no religion without culture.

Yes, but that doesn't mean religion is something necessary for culture or humans. You could wipe out religion and it would do no harm. Religion was developed for the reasons you said, and because there was no knowledge, it simply stayed and became part of society.

And while I'm not a huge fan of religion, people would just find something else to fight about, if not religion then Natural resources, land, democracy, communism, poverty, food etc., which in most cases are also the reasons behind religious wars.

Not true. You don't fight if you don't have a motivation (mostly). Religion is one motivation. Violence because of religion wouldn't exist if there was no religion. In any case, the existence of violence is not a reason to say religion isn't bad because it causes violence. If it causes violence, it is a problem.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I don't believe this for a second. You were raised by parents, and they likely instilled this into you.



Who said you did other than you?

Strawman found and bypassed.



I'm not suggesting we get rid of laws -- that was a challenge to those who think we would have "figured it out" without the need for a system of governance.

I agree with you that we have an inborn sense of justice, right/wrong, etc, but what's right and wrong and just could vary from person to person -- what could be wrong to me could be prefectly acceptable to you.

So the need for rules grew out of this to make sure everyone was treated farily and society was civilized.

You are probably right to some degree in that I had parents and was raised in this country, so I can't really say if how I feel I should treat people was instilled in me starting at a very young age or if that's just who *I* am by nature.

With that being said, examples of orderly society with rules predates the bible. Quite literally thousands of years before even a single book of the old testament was written, there was a centralized government in Egypt. How come their civilization thrived for many years without rules handed down by god? They had religion, but it couldn't be a 'real' religion with 'real' gods / goddesses if your god is the only one true god, right? Yet they were able to start and build civilization and government, that had rules and regulations to keep things orderly, without ever having heard a peep from your god. Where did they get their morals from? How were they able to build a society without the old testament to tell them right from wrong?

 

[Retro Rob]

With that being said, examples of orderly society with rules predates the bible. Quite literally thousands of years before even a single book of the old testament was written, there was a centralized government in Egypt.

But you're missing a vital point and why you need to consider the Bible from the very first book -- Genesis (this is a theological consideration, not a scientitific one -- so refrain from asking if I can prove Adam as Eve were real people).

According that, there was only one God, one "religion" originally. Egypt, didn't worship the God of the Bible, but they did have a civlization as you said, but the had a plethora of god's, and their Pharoah's were seen as gods.

So the point of the Bible wasn't to civlilize people per se' -- it's designed to draw people to the "True God" because Yahweh ultimately vowed to destroy false worhippers (people who bowed to idols like fish and fowls, etc).

How come their civilization thrived for many years without rules handed down by god?

Because you make it about having "rules", you'd always ask this question -- it's about true worship, according to the Bible, anyway.

They had religion, but it couldn't be a 'real' religion with 'real' gods / goddesses if your god is the only one true god, right?

Precisely.

they were able to start and build civilization and government, that had rules and regulations to keep things orderly, without ever having heard a peep from your god. Where did they get their morals from? How were they able to build a society without the old testament to tell them right from wrong?

If it was about rules/regulations/government, then you'd have a strong point. But since the God of the Bible eventually remove false worship, it was more about being on the right side serving the right God than simply having an orderly society.

I think that's the part that's constantly overlooked.

 

[soulcougher73]

I'm not suggesting we get rid of laws -- that was a challenge to those who think we would have "figured it out" without the need for a system of governance.

I agree with you that we have an inborn sense of justice, right/wrong, etc, but what's right and wrong and just could vary from person to person -- what could be wrong to me could be prefectly acceptable to you.

So the need for rules grew out of this to make sure everyone was treated farily and society was civilized.

Duh. But what does that have to do with religion? You forget which side youre supposed to be debating?

 

[soulcougher73]

So Retrorob, if all relgions had holy books telling them that their god is the "one true god". How do you know yours is? Just because a book told you so? What if you had read another holy book that stated the same thing from another religion? I mean if you have no real proof (obviously) what makes one more right than another?

It's moslty rhetorical as i already know the answer, but im curious what your reasoning is.

 

[alkemyst]

So Retrorob, if all relgions had holy books telling them that their god is the "one true god". How do you know yours is? Just because a book told you so? What if you had read another holy book that stated the same thing from another religion? I mean if you have no real proof (obviously) what makes one more right than another?

It's moslty rhetorical as i already know the answer, but im curious what your reasoning is.

That becomes the circular argument and in the end relies on one's faith.

There are tons of misconceptions and fallacies in this thread though. I doubt more than 1-2 people here even have read the Bible or other holy books in depth yet alone straight through.

 

[Retro Rob]

So Retrorob, if all relgions had holy books telling them that their god is the "one true god". How do you know yours is? Just because a book told you so? What if you had read another holy book that stated the same thing from another religion? I mean if you have no real proof (obviously) what makes one more right than another?

Its mainly because the Bible is prophetic. Things that were prophesied to happen have actually happend in history (i.e,. Jesus spoke about the Great Jewish Revlot about 30 years before it happend).

Now, I understand that people would object to it actually being added later by an unknown writer, but there is not one shred of evidence to support this conclusion, only conjecture.

Keep in mind too, that scholars who posit this stuff also criticize the hypotheses of other schoalrs who posit this stuff.

It's moslty rhetorical as i already know the answer.

You want a prize?

 

[soulcougher73]

You want a prize?

No, im good. Thanks though. My prize is my knowledge.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Its mainly because the Bible is prophetic. Things that were prophesied to happen have actually happend in history (i.e,. Jesus spoke about the Great Jewish Revlot about 30 years before it happend).

Now, I understand that people would object to it actually being added later by an unknown writer, but there is not one shred of evidence to support this conclusion, only conjecture.

Keep in mind too, that scholars who posit this stuff also criticize the hypotheses of other schoalrs who posit this stuff.


You want a prize?

What is the greatest prophecy the bible predicted that came to pass?

To me a Jew predicting a Jewish revolt in the future might be less than prophecy. But, jesus said it and it came true, so we'll count it. But then what do you say about the failed prophecies in the bible? The Nile river, as an example, has not dried up and Egypt still exists.

 

[Retro Rob]

What is the greatest prophecy the bible predicted that came to pass?

To me a Jew predicting a Jewish revolt in the future might be less than prophecy. But, jesus said it and it came true, so we'll count it. But then what do you say about the failed prophecies in the bible? The Nile river, as an example, has not dried up and Egypt still exists.

It wasn't just a revolt, the details (Romans being encamped around Jerusalem, and the fact the temple would be destroyed).

Just not interested in talking about prophecy. He wanted a reason, I just simply gave him one.

Take that as being "cornered" all you want. Just not interested.

 

[SlowSpyder]

If it was about rules/regulations/government, then you'd have a strong point. But since the God of the Bible eventually remove false worship, it was more about being on the right side serving the right God than simply having an orderly society.

I think that's the part that's constantly overlooked.

In the past I've asked (or others asked and I've read the answers) about some of the old testament rules. And I know I've read things from the christian posters here that more or less said some of the rules we're there for good human reasons. Such as, there was a real danger in eating shellfish at the time.

But if that isn't the case, and the rules aren't there to help advance society or keep people safe from things they didn't understand, what were some of them there for? I mean some of the passages / rules (don't murder, don't steal) make perfect common sense. But what about the others?

A long list of laws and rules as commanded by the bible. How do some of these get me on the right side of god, as you say?

http://biblebabble.curbjaw.com/laws.htm

(since you won't take that link seriously and probably won't click on it, I'll post some of the passages I'm talking about)

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

And many others. How does this help people to worship him as the correct god? How does this put you on the right side of god?


Just my opinion, but it seems very man made to me.

 

[SlowSpyder]

It wasn't just a revolt, the details (Romans being encamped around Jerusalem, and the fact the temple would be destroyed).

Just not interested in talking about prophecy. He wanted a reason, I just simply gave him one.

Take that as being "cornered" all you want. Just not interested.

That's the old part of the conversation, this is the new part. You said you picked christianity because the bible is prophetic, that's how you know it to be real and the other religions to be false, right?

So what if I told you that other religions also had prophets that predicted things that came to pass? What about the many bible prophecies that are known to be false, to be wrong, to have simply not happened as told in god's perfect word?

Again, how do you know your deity to be real and the right one when christianity isn't unique in the way in which you choose it as the correct religoin?

 

[Retro Rob]

In the past I've asked (or others asked and I've read the answers) about some of the old testament rules. And I know I've read things from the christian posters here that more or less said some of the rules we're there for good human reasons. Such as, there was a real danger in eating shellfish at the time.

The "rules" (paricularly the 600+ of the Mosaic Law) were to protect them from food-borne illness, make them different from the religions around them, and to teach them how to meet God's standards.

Simple, really.

I mean some of the passages / rules (don't murder, don't steal) make perfect common sense. But what about the others?

If they were common sense, then we wouldn't need to jail people for theft and Murder.

A long list of laws and rules as commanded by the bible. How do some of these get me on the right side of god, as you say?

http://biblebabble.curbjaw.com/laws.htm

[/QUOTE]

I don't know...maybe doing more personal research can help you answer that.

 

[OverVolt]

..

 

[SlowSpyder]

Herp derp none of the 1.2 billion Catholics believe this.

"God hates fags" is very Westboro Baptist Church which has 40 members. Wow you get trolled easy.

I don't know or really care what percentage of catholics or any other christians believe that 'god hates fags'. But the bible, his perfect word, do say nasty things about homosexuality in both the new and old testament.

Example:
If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense. Leviticus 20:13


But then again he did send his own son to be a blood sacrifice. So maybe condemning people to die is like his hug? Or maybe ordering death for such acts might be because of hatred.


*edit - Just read your additional comments. No, I try and judge christianity based on the bible, it is supposed to be god's perfect word. What christians do with it isn't always going to be a reflection on the bible or the faith. But the words themselves, the context, it tells me a lot about christianity. I see it as very watered down in the church services I've been to. Now even the pope seems to be lightening up on homosexuality (like divorce before it) as the hateful parts of the bible don't fill the collection plates as well as selling eternal paradise.

 

[OverVolt]

..

 

[SlowSpyder]

Why do you keep posting things about the Westboro Church as if I'm not familiar with them? Can you tell me the part where god says homosexuality is ok? I can show you many verses where he says it isn't and wants anyone participating in such acts put to death. Some people protest with signs that say 'God hates fags', some people lobby against equal rights for homosexuals. Same hate, just a different way of expressing it. But in both cases it stems from the same place, the christian god's handbook.

 

[JEDIYoda]

In typical JEDIYoda fashion "you don't understand the Bible, your reading and comprehension skills suck". Fallback defense when he doesn't want to face the truth.

The truth hurts.....there is a diference in th Old and New tesatament......
There is a difference in being under the Law as opposed to being under Grace......

You and others throw these questions out as if they support what you think......

As I stated these questions can be answered. Yet why should I take my time and properly explain the answers when you will dismiss the answers without reading or trying to understand?

Yes...it is a lack of understanding. What came before the verses and what comes after as far as context and are we in the Old or new testament as well as are we talking about the Law or Grace.....

There is so much to properly studying the Bible.

Yet it is very easy to open the Bible and question why God allowed or commanded something to happen, without studying the Bible.

Have a nice day!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

How the fuck should I know? Ask them. It has fuck-all to do with what I said.

typical response after being backed into a corner....

 

[OverVolt]

Anyway its gone just stickin' up for what I believe. Sick of people trying to tell me what I do and don't believe cause they saw it on internet.

 

[Retro Rob]

I don't know or really care what percentage of catholics or any other christians believe that 'god hates fags'. But the bible, his perfect word, do say nasty things about homosexuality in both the new and old testament.

Example:
If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense. Leviticus 20:13


But then again he did send his own son to be a blood sacrifice. So maybe condemning people to die is like his hug? Or maybe ordering death for such acts might be because of hatred.


*edit - Just read your additional comments. No, I try and judge christianity based on the bible, it is supposed to be god's perfect word. What christians do with it isn't always going to be a reflection on the bible or the faith. But the words themselves, the context, it tells me a lot about christianity. I see it as very watered down in the church services I've been to. Now even the pope seems to be lightening up on homosexuality (like divorce before it) as the hateful parts of the bible don't fill the collection plates as well as selling eternal paradise.

I find it amazingly hilarious that you know how to find information regarding gods laws on gays, what makes him an evil murderous monster, and why Chrisitanity isn't a good religion, yet, you ask why all the laws in the Bible.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Right, I don't understand. I've heard that before from you. It is good to know that every other person who reads the bible comes away with the exact same interpretation and the exact same knowledge of god and there are not multiple sects of christian churches. Anyone who has a different opinion of it than you is wrong and ignorant, right? <--- did I say that? In your case not believing the Bible --I can honestly say -you are wrong.
Of course there are multiple sects so. There are Atheists who have different beliefs concerning God and Life and Living....your point?
the context and I have read the bible... I used to read a few pages every night before I went to bed. Though I admit that was years ago and I wouldn't mind reading it again. <--reading and studing are two different things!

But to assume I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't see the story of your god as a loving one (or real) is showing your ignorance. I care about it because the laws I live by are influenced by christianity. I also enjoy these discussions, maybe I'll learn something new. Maybe I'll get a new perspective on something. <--- you don`t see the story of God as a loving God...tells me that you did not read the Bible or that you had a serious lack of understanding......the Bible says -- For God so loved the world.......what Bible were you reading??? Of course your free to spaz out and post all the examples of what a loving God would not do.......

I know you don't have any issue with the things that happened in the bible. Propaganda. I bet many Nazis felt anything Hitler did was just when he was at his height of power. I'm not saying your god is Hitler, but that people are easily blinded to truth. <--- that's a pretty low and desperate thing to say! Yet being an Atheist who trust science without question -- the same could be said of you. Then again if you woke up tomorrow and many scientist claimed they made a mistake that they have proof there is a God......you would find a way to explain it away....

Just because you lack an understanding of the Bible does not man that those who do are like the Nazi`s.....
For you to continually insist that the Bible is propaganda is just ridiculous and fool hardy and an ignorant stand to take!

Comparing Christianity and the Bible to Hitler and the Nazi`s......umm ok!!

 

[SlowSpyder]

Anyway its gone just stickin' up for what I believe. Sick of people trying to tell me what I do and don't believe cause they saw it on internet.

I saw it, don't get what you were getting at. Were you saying I should learn about god from wikipedia? You seem to really not grasp what I'm saying. I judge and learn about christianity from the bible and it's teaching first and foremost. The words are plain enough for anyone to read.

Simple exercise, won't take long.
Give me a few passages where god says homosexuality is ok.

Now give me a few where the bible says it isn't ok, and the consequences if mentioned.

This has nothing to do with the catholic church or what they say, or it's members and what they say. Likewise this has nothing to do with the WBC, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. Look to the bible, god's perfect word.


No one is forcing you to participate in this thread or telling you what to believe, that's for you to decide. But reality can be a real bitch sometimes. I guess the best course for you is to edit your posts so you don't have to read something that makes you question what you were taught or want to believe.

 

[soulcougher73]

I saw it, don't get what you were getting at. Were you saying I should learn about god from wikipedia? You seem to really not grasp what I'm saying. I judge and learn about christianity from the bible and it's teaching first and foremost. The words are plain enough for anyone to read.

Simple exercise, won't take long.
Give me a few passages where god says homosexuality is ok.

Now give me a few where the bible says it isn't ok, and the consequences if mentioned.

This has nothing to do with the catholic church or what they say, or it's members and what they say. Likewise this has nothing to do with the WBC, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. Look to the bible, god's perfect word.


No one is forcing you to participate in this thread or telling you what to believe, that's for you to decide. But reality can be a real bitch sometimes. I guess the best course for you is to edit your posts so you don't have to read something that makes you question what you were taught or want to believe.

It's like shooting fish in a barrel

 

[SlowSpyder]

Comparing Christianity and the Bible to Hitler and the Nazi`s......umm ok!!

Only from a propaganda perspective. Seems like you are the one that may need some help with context.


<--- did I say that? In your case not believing the Bible --I can honestly say -you are wrong.
Of course there are multiple sects so. There are Atheists who have different beliefs concerning God and Life and Living....your point?

The point is that because I have a different view of the bible than you, that doesn't make me wrong anymore than it makes you wrong in your view of it. But the bible is supposed to be god's perfect word, yet christians can't even get on the same page. Atheists don't have a divinely written or inspired handbook, so one would expect us to all have varying view points.


<--reading and studing are two different things!

Agreed. I'm not the world's foremost bible expert, never claimed to be. But I've been part of the faith and have a good understanding of it.

<--- you don`t see the story of God as a loving God...tells me that you did not read the Bible or that you had a serious lack of understanding......the Bible says -- For God so loved the world.......what Bible were you reading??? Of course your free to spaz out and post all the examples of what a loving God would not do.......

He loved the world so much he had his kid sacrificed. Thanks... I guess? Words are one thing, actions another. Is it love if he created us sick and punishes a majority of souls to eternal torment because of how he created us? Sorry to spaz out with rational thought like that.

<--- that's a pretty low and desperate thing to say! Yet being an Atheist who trust science without question -- the same could be said of you. Then again if you woke up tomorrow and many scientist claimed they made a mistake that they have proof there is a God......you would find a way to explain it away....

You still don't get it. I trust science that has evidence. Ever had an MRI? Isn't it amazing how science says this machine is capable of seeing in the body in detail without ever cutting you open, then explains the principals of how the machine works, and then you can see first hand the results?

(Jedi's post) - Just because you lack an understanding of the Bible does not man that those who do are like the Nazi`s.....
For you to continually insist that the Bible is propaganda is just ridiculous and fool hardy and an ignorant stand to take!

Good propaganda will get people on board. Great propaganda will make it so they never question it. In light of failed prophecies, many other religions and gods, contradictions in the bible, churches with a financial incentive for membership, etc. you won't question christianity. You figure it out.