The Theism/Atheism Mega-thread Hullabaloo Extravaganza

[JEDIYoda]

Have people ever acted out in violence over what is written in the bible?

Does your god command his followers to kill people at any part in the bible?

Does your god tell those fighting for him that they can keep spoils of battle, including women (like they are property), at any part in the bible?

Does your god call for people to be put to death for things like worshiping other gods or for a woman not being a virgin?

Does your god destroy entire cities?

Did your god kill every child in Egypt to make his point?

Does your god send his son to be a blood sacrifice?

Would most of the people who have lived and died be in eternal torment according to the bible? (Remember, a majority of the population who has ever lived haven't accepted jesus as their savior)

The bible is mixed at best, it has passages about love and getting along as well as a lot of hatred and violence. But I am glad we both agree that I am ahead. Not quitting in these discussions, though.

All your question can be answered......but whatever I was to say would not be good enough for you because you choose to claim to know the scriptures, when in fact you know nothing about the theology of the bible and you know nothing other than what you can find online as to being under that law as opposed to being under Grace....

You lack understanding of the interpretation of the Bible. Your questions are meaningless without understanding the context and an understanding of the differences between the Old and New testament.

No, you can blindly think what you wish about my God. You can choose to not actually understand the scriptures. That is your choice, which is quite obvious.

Since it is obvious that you do not claim the God of the Bible to be your God what does this matter to you?

I have no issues with what took place in the Bible!! Sorry...

 

[SlowSpyder]

But Alzan was suggesting that doing good is so innate to humans, that we would just figure it out.

This is a classic claim made by atheist to dismiss the need for laws on behavior given by religious authority thousands of years ago.

If they really believe we'll just "figure it out", then suggest removing all secular laws on human behavior and just let people "figure it out". They'll see how good people really can be on their own while hiding behind those bolted doors with snipers on the roof.

Had to respond to this one before going to bed. :hmm:

I largely agree with alzan. Logic and my sense of empathy is just about all I really need. With those two things I figured out that the world would be a much better place if we all just treated others how we would want to be treated. I don't need laws, I don't need a holy book, and I don't need faith in a god to know this.

That doesn't mean that we don't need laws. I'm not sure why we would get rid of them. If you ask a guy robbing a bank if what he's doing is moral, there's a gpod chance he'll say it is not. The punishment helps to persuade other's.

But then why does a place like Vatican City need laws if god gives us our morals?

 

[OverVolt]

Atheists are so derpy. Sigh.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Well, after learning what time you need to arrive at work, why do they give you a copy of the "on-time" page of your handbook?

You've been told, so why do they feel you need it?

How the fuck should I know? Ask them. It has fuck-all to do with what I said.

 

[biostud]

You can't have faith in god if you know it exists. Believing requires a certain amount of "unknown" otherwise it is just knowing.

Personally I don't believe in some form of higher conscience, but I still find the fact that life has risen from non-living material, the vastness of universe and time to be incredible stories that my mere human brain have a very hard time to grasp.

 

[biostud]

I think it's pretty obvious that societies who have some sort of coherent laws and rules do better than societies where total anarchy rules. So when old religions rose it gave humans a common purpose and a set of rules to follow, creating a more organized and productive society.

 

[witeken]

You can't have faith in god if you know it exists. Believing requires a certain amount of "unknown" otherwise it is just knowing.

If you know it exists, why don't all other people? So how do you know?

This question is solved by science. The only real knowledge about the universe is acquired by science. Not faith nor religion. If you think you know something but it isn't back up by science, you don't really know if. So then it's indeed a belief.

Personally I don't believe in some form of higher conscience, but I still find the fact that life has risen from non-living material, the vastness of universe and time to be incredible stories that my mere human brain have a very hard time to grasp.

It aren't just stories. And even though it's indeed almost impossibly difficult to comprehend such things, it's nowhere near as magical as an invisible, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, omnipresent god.

 

[witeken]

I think it's pretty obvious that societies who have some sort of coherent laws and rules do better than societies where total anarchy rules. So when old religions rose it gave humans a common purpose and a set of rules to follow, creating a more organized and productive society.

I don't think so. You don't need religion to have rules. As far as I know, old religions didn't care about morality, they were just stories people believed to be true. It was more like natural selection of religion. It's no coincidence that the gods today are who they are: they are designed to be unexplainable.

 

[alzan]

I don't think so. You don't need religion to have rules. As far as I know, old religions didn't care about morality, they were just stories people believed to be true. It was more like natural selection of religion. It's no coincidence that the gods today are who they are: they are designed to be unexplainable.

Gotta disagree with you there. You don't need to have religion to have rules is true but I think at least part of the reason for religion is that men saw the unjust nature of some laws created by a given leader and came up with the idea of laws laid down by a deity or deities to take morality out of mans' hands, so to speak.

The stories contained within religious texts do speak to selfless and compassionate acts and are in that respect responsible for the some of the behavior of religions' adherents.

 

[soulcougher73]

All your question can be answered......but whatever I was to say would not be good enough for you because you choose to claim to know the scriptures, when in fact you know nothing about the theology of the bible and you know nothing other than what you can find online as to being under that law as opposed to being under Grace....

You lack understanding of the interpretation of the Bible. Your questions are meaningless without understanding the context and an understanding of the differences between the Old and New testament.

No, you can blindly think what you wish about my God. You can choose to not actually understand the scriptures. That is your choice, which is quite obvious.

Since it is obvious that you do not claim the God of the Bible to be your God what does this matter to you?

I have no issues with what took place in the Bible!! Sorry...

In typical JEDIYoda fashion "you don't understand the Bible, your reading and comprehension skills suck". Fallback defense when he doesn't want to face the truth.

 

[biostud]

If you know it exists, why don't all other people? So how do you know?

This question is solved by science. The only real knowledge about the universe is acquired by science. Not faith nor religion. If you think you know something but it isn't back up by science, you don't really know if. So then it's indeed a belief.


It aren't just stories. And even though it's indeed almost impossibly difficult to comprehend such things, it's nowhere near as magical as an invisible, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, omnipresent god.

Since I don't believe in god, it's the closest thing to that. How can anything erupt from nothing? What was before big bang? Was time created with big bang or did it exist before. Lots of fun question, that we might never get an answer to.

 

[biostud]

I don't think so. You don't need religion to have rules. As far as I know, old religions didn't care about morality, they were just stories people believed to be true. It was more like natural selection of religion. It's no coincidence that the gods today are who they are: they are designed to be unexplainable.

I agree that you don't need to have religion to have morality. But history shows that most if not all societies are based around a religion. My guess is that because the lack of knowledge/science, humans found their traditions in things they saw, and the unexplainable was then said to be a part of a greater purpose or god. I think that the rituals that many religions have, helped to create bonds between humans and unify groups to act stronger than individuals.

 

[witeken]

Since I don't believe in god, it's the closest thing to that. How can anything erupt from nothing? What was before big bang? Was time created with big bang or did it exist before. Lots of fun question, that we might never get an answer to.

Fun questions, which we can (try to) answer to the best of our ability with science. Not by inventing ridiculous stories and indoctrinating people they're true. Just the fact the we know about the big bang is already remarkable.

 

[SlowSpyder]

All your question can be answered......but whatever I was to say would not be good enough for you because you choose to claim to know the scriptures, when in fact you know nothing about the theology of the bible and you know nothing other than what you can find online as to being under that law as opposed to being under Grace....

You lack understanding of the interpretation of the Bible. Your questions are meaningless without understanding the context and an understanding of the differences between the Old and New testament.

No, you can blindly think what you wish about my God. You can choose to not actually understand the scriptures. That is your choice, which is quite obvious.

Since it is obvious that you do not claim the God of the Bible to be your God what does this matter to you?

I have no issues with what took place in the Bible!! Sorry...

Right, I don't understand. I've heard that before from you. It is good to know that every other person who reads the bible comes away with the exact same interpretation and the exact same knowledge of god and there are not multiple sects of christian churches. Anyone who has a different opinion of it than you is wrong and ignorant, right?

I know this is going to blow you away, but I understand the context and I have read the bible... I used to read a few pages every night before I went to bed. Though I admit that was years ago and I wouldn't mind reading it again.

But to assume I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't see the story of your god as a loving one (or real) is showing your ignorance. I care about it because the laws I live by are influenced by christianity. I also enjoy these discussions, maybe I'll learn something new. Maybe I'll get a new perspective on something.

I know you don't have any issue with the things that happened in the bible. Propaganda. I bet many Nazis felt anything Hitler did was just when he was at his height of power. I'm not saying your god is Hitler, but that people are easily blinded to truth.

 

[soulcougher73]

I agree that you don't need to have religion to have morality. But history shows that most if not all societies are based around a religion. My guess is that because the lack of knowledge/science, humans found their traditions in things they saw, and the unexplainable was then said to be a part of a greater purpose or god. I think that the rituals that many religions have, helped to create bonds between humans and unify groups to act stronger than individuals.

I agree with this except i think the time has come to abandon obviously silly explanations for things and move forward with knowledge, logic, reason and science. The things that were unexplainable then are pretty much easily explained now. Any natural disaster was unexplainable so was attributred to a god doing it. Today every natural disaster is explanable and most even predicatable. So holding onto fairy tales as a means to get your answers seems pretty silly with todays knowledge.

 

[Retro Rob]

EDIT: Double post.

 

[Retro Rob]

I don't think so. You don't need religion to have rules. As far as I know, old religions didn't care about morality, they were just stories people believed to be true. It was more like natural selection of religion. It's no coincidence that the gods today are who they are: they are designed to be unexplainable.

We don't need religion to have rules, just like we don't need steak to have food, just like we don't need highspeed internet to surf the web, just like we don't need a house to have a roof over our heads, etc etc, but I don't hear you lobbying to eradicate those.

Religion doesn't exists necessarily as a "need" for rules -- its more in an attempt to worship God/gods in an organized, respectful manner.

True, many people try to legislate their religion, but its inherently a way to acceptably worship God, not a "need to have rules".

I would suggest we all get an understanding as to why religion exists instead of erecting strawman arguments as to the reason for its existence.

 

[witeken]

I agree that you don't need to have religion to have morality. But history shows that most if not all societies are based around a religion. My guess is that because the lack of knowledge/science, humans found their traditions in things they saw, and the unexplainable was then said to be a part of a greater purpose or god. I think that the rituals that many religions have, helped to create bonds between humans and unify groups to act stronger than individuals.

I agree, but not with your last sentence. Things don't only exist because they're beneficial, like Daniel Dennett explained.

If even today religion does hardly anything good for the world, then I'm not optimistic about hundreds or thousands of years ago.

I think you might be confusing religion with culture.

 

[witeken]

We don't need religion to have rules, just like we don't need steak to have food, just like we don't need highspeed internet to surf the web, just like we don't need a house to have a roof over our heads, etc etc, but I don't hear you lobbying to eradicate those.

So you're saying that religion is superior to rules? I don't think so. I don't want to live in a country governed by the Bible.

 

[Retro Rob]

So you're saying that religion is superior to rules? I don't think so. I don't want to live in a country governed by the Bible.

What?

That's not what I said.

 

[witeken]

What?

That's not what I said.

"Just like we don't need highspeed internet to surf the web".
So "just like we don't need religion to have rules".

Which means:

high speed internet > regular internet
religion > rules

 

[Retro Rob]

"Just like we don't need highspeed internet to surf the web".
So "just like we don't need religion to have rules".

Which means:

high speed internet > regular internet
religion > rules

That's NOT saying dial-up is better than highspeed, or that religon is better than "rules" (whatever the heck that means) -- I'm simply saying that arguing against religion on the basis of whether or not its "needed" is a strawman.

 

[jhbball]

Atheists are so derpy. Sigh.

Nope. Your parents failed you. Congrats!

 

[biostud]

I agree, but not with your last sentence. Things don't only exist because they're beneficial, like Daniel Dennett explained.

If even today religion does hardly anything good for the world, then I'm not optimistic about hundreds or thousands of years ago.

I think you might be confusing religion with culture.

I'm not saying that religion is merely beneficial, but humans have always (as far as we know) had imagination and liked stories, and have had a need to understand or find an explanation to our role in the universe. About religion and culture it's a mix that you cannot separate in two, when you look at it historically. There's no culture without religion and no religion without culture. And while I'm not a huge fan of religion, people would just find something else to fight about, if not religion then Natural resources, land, democracy, communism, poverty, food etc., which in most cases are also the reasons behind religious wars.

 

[Retro Rob]

I largely agree with alzan. Logic and my sense of empathy is just about all I really need. With those two things I figured out that the world would be a much better place if we all just treated others how we would want to be treated.

I don't believe this for a second. You were raised by parents, and they likely instilled this into you.

I don't need laws, I don't need a holy book, and I don't need faith in a god to know this.

Who said you did other than you?

Strawman found and bypassed.

That doesn't mean that we don't need laws. I'm not sure why we would get rid of them.

I'm not suggesting we get rid of laws -- that was a challenge to those who think we would have "figured it out" without the need for a system of governance.

I agree with you that we have an inborn sense of justice, right/wrong, etc, but what's right and wrong and just could vary from person to person -- what could be wrong to me could be prefectly acceptable to you.

So the need for rules grew out of this to make sure everyone was treated farily and society was civilized.