The Theism/Atheism Mega-thread Hullabaloo Extravaganza

[alzan]

I've run into this same scenario time and time again. I have family that are active in and have strong christian faith. We've butted heads occasionally, but never anything serious. But, I've noticed too that any critique of their god or the bible seems to be seen as an attack on that person, and I never mean it that way. I think it is an emotional bond to a 'blankie', or along those lines, something that offers security and comfort. Anything that threatens that security gets processed differently in otherwise perfectly logical people.

This is something I've thought about as well, believe it or not. If he created me,, why would I ever be punished for using the faculties he provided me with as created in his image?

I don't know if there is a higher power or not in this universe. There are kinds of questions science doesn't know the answer to, but I think one day will resolve. Then there are questions that I'm not confident will ever get answered as they seem beyond human abilities (but then again maybe I just lack imagination, I am sure someone from 100AD brought to our current time would be floored by the knowledge and tech we have).

While I don't mean to instigate, I am calling it like I see it with christianity. I believe it is a fraud, a phony, not real, etc. There may be a higher power in the universe, but I don't see christianity as that higher power. It is a business that sells false hope and keeps people in fear while borrowing heavily from other older religions that have fallen by the wayside. It's nothing special, just another cookie cutter religion that happens to be winning the popularity contest during our time here on earth. I try to keep my mind open, but the more I learn about it, the more obvious to me it becomes, it's a fraud. Of course this is just my $.02, others may see it differentlly.

A security blanket analogy could certainly be at play. The relationship I share with my wife has provided me an enormous amount of security and comfort. As well, Linus from Peanuts was always my favorite character.

Floored by our knowledge and tech certainly, however that same person from 100CE may find little value in either and merely be content with wife, family and occupation. There are bane and boon to both times and outlooks.

Religion may sell false hope but I don't necessarily find hope to be an altogether bad thing, it's a wonderful coping mechanism whether it springs from religion or from a positive mental attitude. The Episcopalian ministers with whom I'm familiar admit as much do their best to employ it cautiously in counseling and sermon.

 

[SlowSpyder]

A security blanket analogy could certainly be at play. The relationship I share with my wife has provided me an enormous amount of security and comfort. As well, Linus from Peanuts was always my favorite character.

Floored by our knowledge and tech certainly, however that same person from 100CE may find little value in either and merely be content with wife, family and occupation. There are bane and boon to both times and outlooks.

Religion may sell false hope but I don't necessarily find hope to be an altogether bad thing, it's a wonderful coping mechanism whether it springs from religion or from a positive mental attitude. The Episcopalian ministers with whom I'm familiar admit as much do their best to employ it cautiously in counseling and sermon.

Selling or giving away hope, even if not real, to those who are looking for it is fine. I just wish it could be done without all the side effects.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I just wish it could be done without all the side effects.

The same side effects Atheism has...hmmmm

 

[JEDIYoda]

Could you give me an example of something I've said that you feel I didn't understand the context of, the before / after cause / effect, etc. Please.

You keep assuming that when someone has a different view of the bible than you that they don't understand it or the context. Yet there are how many different c̶u̶l̶t̶s̶ sects of christianity? Why can't everyone get on the same wavelength regarding god's perfect word?

In your case the list of questions you posted about different things in the Bible prove that your view of the scriptures is NOT based on studying the scriptures with a desire to understand.

Your view of the scriptures are based on picking and choosing points concerning the scriptures that you perhaps could have read but did not understand!

It`s very easy to read something and come to the wrong conclusion based on a lack of understanding!

Then you try to justify your lack of understanding or knowledge concerning the Bible by playing the -- there are many cults and sects in Christianity" card....

You have no intention of understanding......as I have no intention of taking the time to try to help somebody who has no intention, understand!

 

[jackstar7]

The same side effects Atheism has...hmmmm

Which are those?

 

[SlowSpyder]

The same side effects Atheism has...hmmmm

Huh? Could you expand on that? What are the side effects are atheism?

 

[SlowSpyder]

In your case the list of questions you posted about different things in the Bible prove that your view of the scriptures is NOT based on studying the scriptures with a desire to understand.

Your view of the scriptures are based on picking and choosing points concerning the scriptures that you perhaps could have read but did not understand!

It`s very easy to read something and come to the wrong conclusion based on a lack of understanding!

Then you try to justify your lack of understanding or knowledge concerning the Bible by playing the -- there are many cults and sects in Christianity" card....

You have no intention of understanding......as I have no intention of taking the time to try to help somebody who has no intention, understand!

I am sinscerly asking, is there anything I've posted in this thread regarding scripture you feel I don't understand, that I don't get the context? I've posted about the great flood, god killing amalekites willy nilly, and a passage about your god commanding the total destruction of Babylon. Is there somewhere you could correct me on what I've said? I would like to get your take on it. I don't see your god as loving, sorry to have a different opinion than you. But, can you tell me why I'm wrong? The more I learn about christianity the more I feel the christian god isn't real and his story is not that of love. Show me why I'm wrong, where my logic and thought process fail, please.

 

[Paul98]

I am sinscerly asking, is there anything I've posted in this thread regarding scripture you feel I don't understand, that I don't get the context? I've posted about the great flood, god killing amalekites willy nilly, and a passage about your god commanding the total destruction of Babylon. Is there somewhere you could correct me on what I've said? I would like to get your take on it. I don't see your god as loving, sorry to have a different opinion than you. But, can you tell me why I'm wrong? The more I learn about christianity the more I feel the christian god isn't real and his story is not that of love. Show me why I'm wrong, where my logic and thought process fail, please.

You will never get a rational, logical answer. The only way you can understand what they believe is if you assume everything in the bible is correct, and everything the god in the bible does is "right". Then simply look at the support for it, if anything doesn't fit make an interpretation that does, and if you are unable to dismiss it.

 

[SlowSpyder]

You will never get a rational, logical answer. The only way you can understand what they believe is if you assume everything in the bible is correct, and everything the god in the bible does is "right". Then simply look at the support for it, if anything doesn't fit make an interpretation that does, and if you are unable to dismiss it.

It is my opinion that many of the faithful twist reality to make it fit what the bible says. I mean, just look at what some of them say about fossils, carbon dating, the age of the planet, etc. These same people that dismiss those things science proclaims to be true post about it on science-derived technology like Facebook from their tablet or computer that uses a science-derived silcon processor, wireless network, and the internet to dismiss science. (or maybe try and argue it on web forums)

Then if most believers have a major medical need they don't just pray on it and leave it up to the all-powerful god who can do anything as promised by the power of prayer (please see below about the power of prayer), no... "Give me everything modern science has got doc! I want to do everything I can beyond paryer to extend my existence on earth and not go to eternal paradise with with the almighty creator of the universe, inventor of morals, and most amazing being beyond imagination in the universe and see my dead realitives that I love so dearly and haven't seen in years or decades...! Give me that anitbiotic!"

Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another,that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. James 5:14-16

Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. Matthew 21:22

Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it Joh 14:13-14

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. Mark 11:25

And he said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.” Mark 9:29

But Peter put them all outside, and knelt down and prayed; and turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. Acts 9:40

And there are more...

 

[sandorski]

It is my opinion that many of the faithful twist reality to make it fit what the bible says. I mean, just look at what some of them say about fossils, carbon dating, the age of the planet, etc. These same people that dismiss those things science proclaims to be true post about it on science-derived technology like Facebook from their tablet or computer that uses a science-derived silcon processor, wireless network, and the internet to dismiss science. (or maybe try and argue it on web forums)

Then if most believers have a major medical need they don't just pray on it and leave it up to the all-powerful god who can do anything as promised by the power of prayer (please see below about the power of prayer), no... "Give me everything modern science has got doc! I want to do everything I can beyond paryer to extend my existence on earth and not go to eternal paradise with with the almighty creator of the universe, inventor of morals, and most amazing being beyond imagination in the universe and see my dead realitives that I love so dearly and haven't seen in years or decades...! Give me that anitbiotic!"




And there are more...

Half right. They also twist the Bible to fit their "Reality". That's why there's no agreement within Christian churches on a vast array of issues.

 

[OverVolt]

A security blanket analogy could certainly be at play. The relationship I share with my wife has provided me an enormous amount of security and comfort. As well, Linus from Peanuts was always my favorite character.

Floored by our knowledge and tech certainly, however that same person from 100CE may find little value in either and merely be content with wife, family and occupation. There are bane and boon to both times and outlooks.

Religion may sell false hope but I don't necessarily find hope to be an altogether bad thing, it's a wonderful coping mechanism whether it springs from religion or from a positive mental attitude. The Episcopalian ministers with whom I'm familiar admit as much do their best to employ it cautiously in counseling and sermon.

The blankie thing comes off as insulting so yeah. For starters you probably couldn't pry it away from someone in the first place nor would they be a nervous wreck without it even if you did.

 

[OverVolt]

Half right. They also twist the Bible to fit their "Reality". That's why there's no agreement within Christian churches on a vast array of issues.

Yea mostly delineated by geography. I don't get what is so terrible about that. Hey I share the same culture as the people who live around me boogey boo bad things are gonna happen to you.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I am sinscerly asking, is there anything I've posted in this thread regarding scripture you feel I don't understand, that I don't get the context? I've posted about the great flood, god killing amalekites willy nilly, and a passage about your god commanding the total destruction of Babylon. Is there somewhere you could correct me on what I've said? I would like to get your take on it. I don't see your god as loving, sorry to have a different opinion than you. But, can you tell me why I'm wrong? The more I learn about christianity the more I feel the christian god isn't real and his story is not that of love. Show me why I'm wrong, where my logic and thought process fail, please.

You will never get a rational, logical answer. The only way you can understand what they believe is if you assume everything in the bible is correct, and everything the god in the bible does is "right". Then simply look at the support for it, if anything doesn't fit make an interpretation that does, and if you are unable to dismiss it.

No he will never get a rational, logical answer. Not because that's what you claimed!
It`s because he is not sincerely looking for any answers to his questions. I have no time to give him any answers...other than to say you have the tools and googell....use them.

Not worth my time!

 

[sandorski]

Yea mostly delineated by geography. I don't get what is so terrible about that. Hey I share the same culture as the people who live around me boogey boo bad things are gonna happen to you.

Maybe a few Centuries ago, but not today. Still brings up the issue as to what the proper reading of the Bible actually is?

 

[Paul98]

No he will never get a rational, logical answer. Not because that's what you claimed!
It`s because he is not sincerely looking for any answers to his questions. I have no time to give him any answers...other than to say you have the tools and googell....use them.

Not worth my time!

You sure spent a lot of time responding how it's "Not worth my time!" rather than answering.

If he can't get a "rational, logical answer" if "he is not sincerely looking for any answers to his questions." then the answer is not rational, logical.

 

[soulcougher73]

In your case the list of questions you posted about different things in the Bible prove that your view of the scriptures is NOT based on studying the scriptures with a desire to understand.

Your view of the scriptures are based on picking and choosing points concerning the scriptures that you perhaps could have read but did not understand!

It`s very easy to read something and come to the wrong conclusion based on a lack of understanding!

Then you try to justify your lack of understanding or knowledge concerning the Bible by playing the -- there are many cults and sects in Christianity" card....

You have no intention of understanding......as I have no intention of taking the time to try to help somebody who has no intention, understand!

"Typical Theist response". Did i do that right JediYoda? I hope i did. I dont want to let your legacy down.

 

[soulcougher73]

No he will never get a rational, logical answer. Not because that's what you claimed!
It`s because he is not sincerely looking for any answers to his questions. I have no time to give him any answers...other than to say you have the tools and googell....use them.

Not worth my time!

You should probably just stay out of this thread if all you are going to post is, well nothing, and that its not worth your time. Either shit or get off the pot.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Huh? Could you expand on that? What are the side effects are atheism?

The same side effects of not believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy!

Duh!

 

[alzan]

The blankie thing comes off as insulting so yeah. For starters you probably couldn't pry it away from someone in the first place nor would they be a nervous wreck without it even if you did.

It could come off as insulting to a person who was insecure however that was not my intention. We've all gone through periods in our lives when something external to ourselves brought about a sense of security; blankets, stuffed or real animals, drugs, alcohol, etc.

In your case the list of questions you posted about different things in the Bible prove that your view of the scriptures is NOT based on studying the scriptures with a desire to understand.

Your view of the scriptures are based on picking and choosing points concerning the scriptures that you perhaps could have read but did not understand!

It`s very easy to read something and come to the wrong conclusion based on a lack of understanding!

Then you try to justify your lack of understanding or knowledge concerning the Bible by playing the -- there are many cults and sects in Christianity" card....

You have no intention of understanding......as I have no intention of taking the time to try to help somebody who has no intention, understand!

I for one question the value of validating parts of the Bible with other parts of Bible, i.e. circular reasoning or logic, and not looking to external sources for confirmation.

 

[SlowSpyder]

In your case the list of questions you posted about different things in the Bible prove that your view of the scriptures is NOT based on studying the scriptures with a desire to understand.

Your view of the scriptures are based on picking and choosing points concerning the scriptures that you perhaps could have read but did not understand!

It`s very easy to read something and come to the wrong conclusion based on a lack of understanding!

Then you try to justify your lack of understanding or knowledge concerning the Bible by playing the -- there are many cults and sects in Christianity" card....

You have no intention of understanding......as I have no intention of taking the time to try to help somebody who has no intention, understand!

If we get our morals from god and christianity, why wouldn't we use those same morals to judge what we read in the bible?

Is it not true that according to the bible we are created imperfectly from god and condemned because of original sin and our imperfections? But we can save ourselves by accepting jesus as our lord and savior, right? The vast majority of humanity that has lived and died, often for no fault of their own, never accepted jesus or the god of the old testament because of when and where they were born. Also, in the bible god killed or ordered the killing of people by the millions. Is that correct?

Do you think it is possible that I see that not as a story of love? That I simply don't share your opinion?

The blankie thing comes off as insulting so yeah. For starters you probably couldn't pry it away from someone in the first place nor would they be a nervous wreck without it even if you did.

I didn't mean it as a derogatory statement. I should have said 'comfort object' or something, I guess. The point being that I think religion brings peace of mind to a lot of people, it gives them a sense of security knowing that when bad things happen, someone is still in control so it'll be alright (whether that's real or imagined). People can react unpredictably when that sense of security is threatened.

 

[Retro Rob]

I for one question the value of validating parts of the Bible with other parts of Bible, i.e. circular reasoning or logic, and not looking to external sources for confirmation.

This is easy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biblical_figures_identified_in_extra-biblical_sources

At one point in time, there were NO extra-biblical confirmation, and the more people used that as evdience against the Bible, the more they were proven wrong.

Evidence has been piling in, and while everything isn't confirmed, in time, more will be. :thumbsup:

The same link mentioned:

Despite ongoing debate concerning the authorship of many of its books, there is a consensus[9][12] among modern scholars that at least some were written by a contemporary of Jesus,[45][46] namely the so-called 'undisputed' epistles of Paul. However, outside of the 27 books and letters collected into the New Testament, no contemporary references to Jesus are known, unless a very early dating is assumed of some uncanonical gospel such as the Gospel of Thomas. Nevertheless, some authentic first century and many second century writings exist in which Jesus is mentioned,[note 1] leading scholars to conclude that the historicity of Jesus is well established by historical documents

Scholars will "debate" until the cows come home, so that really doesn't matter to me.

 

[SlowSpyder]

What about when external sources show something in the bible to be just plain wrong? Are those sources and situations accepted equally as those sources that confirm something in the bible to be true?

 

[Retro Rob]

What about when external sources show something in the bible to be just plain wrong? Are those sources and situations accepted equally as those sources that confirm something in the bible to be true?

That's fine too.

My point is that if anyone wants external confirmation, it's so easy to find that a caveman can do it.

It tells me a lot about a person who says he questions the Bible but didn't seem to bother to look for external confirmation, perhaps out of fear of being wrong.

 

[JD50]

Well, I didn't exactly remember jack's post, and didn't bother to check -- that my fault. And I cannot go back and forth with myself.

Of course the same rules don't apply to God simply because they don't have to apply...this goes without saying.

Since we all agree on what jack originally said, there is no point in carrying on this particular discussion.

Ok, that's fine. It just seems odd that you'd spend so much time trying to justify something that clearly can't be justified. Then when you get to the point where you realize it's completely indefensible, you fall back to "god doesn't play by our rules."

 

[JD50]

That's fine too.

My point is that if anyone wants external confirmation, it's so easy to find that a caveman can do it.

It tells me a lot about a person who says he questions the Bible but didn't seem to bother to look for external confirmation, perhaps out of fear of being wrong.

Really? Then why haven't you changed your position on Noah's ark and the global flood, evolution, adam and eve, etc...?