The Theism/Atheism Mega-thread Hullabaloo Extravaganza

[soulcougher73]

A "human".

So if a "human" murders its bad. But when your "god" does it we should worship him? Doesnt seem to hard. I think ill become a Christian. Thanks RetroRob.

 

[JD50]

You don't have to abide by the rules you give your children no more than God has to abide by the rules he gives his.

As Judge, he has the ability to see the hearts of persons, the future of them, and the inclinations of folks.

These abilities make what he does above reproach.



Read above.

Yes, that's exactly what Jackstar said your explanation would be. I just asked you a few posts ago why you didn't just agree with his original post instead of going back and forth about this. You said "Why would I agree with something that's incorrect?"

I'm not sure where I said this. A quote would be fine, and I'm taking about where I said God could have done something "better".

When I said "God couldn't come up with something better" you replied with "Who said God couldn't have done something "better"?", scroll up and read it for yourself.

A "human".

Again, this is exactly what Jackstar said your answer would be and you told me that he was incorrect.

 

[JD50]

Quick! What time is it?!

Remind me: what did the children among the Amalekites do to deserve their deaths at the command of God?

I say "remind me", but you've never given an answer beyond the rules god made for us don't apply to him. Which doesn't actually answer what those kids did...

Yep, and that's what Jackstar said in his original post about subject. Instead of going on and on about emotional appeals and fallacies, Rob could've just agreed with the original post. <snip>

Why would I agree with something that's incorrect?

<snip>

You don't have to abide by the rules you give your children no more than God has to abide by the rules he gives his.

As Judge, he has the ability to see the hearts of persons, the future of them, and the inclinations of folks.

These abilities make what he does above reproach.

<snip>

A "human".

How was he incorrect?

 

[SlowSpyder]

How can something you think doesn't exist kill someone? Its so contrived.

I don't think the christian god killed anyone as I don't believe the christian god exists. But many people in this thread do, and whether you want to agree or not, there are many places where the bible says that god killed or commanded humans to kill. So when a book that millions get their morals from pushes ethnic genocide but says god love humanity, and I have to live by laws influenced by this book, let's talk about those parts that aren't typically talked about by the institutions that have a financial interest in membership. I think it exposes christianity as inconsistent and man made at best, or at least is another piece of evidence pointing towards that.

 

[Retro Rob]

Yes, that's exactly what Jackstar said your explanation would be. I just asked you a few posts ago why you didn't just agree with his original post instead of going back and forth about this. You said "Why would I agree with something that's incorrect?"

Well, I didn't exactly remember jack's post, and didn't bother to check -- that my fault. And I cannot go back and forth with myself.

Of course the same rules don't apply to God simply because they don't have to apply...this goes without saying.

Since we all agree on what jack originally said, there is no point in carrying on this particular discussion.

 

[soulcougher73]

How was he incorrect?

"But..but..you are putting words into my mouth" -RetroRob

 

[OverVolt]

I don't think the christian god killed anyone as I don't believe the christian god exists. But many people in this thread do, and whether you want to agree or not, there are many places where the bible says that god killed or commanded humans to kill. So when a book that millions get their morals from pushes ethnic genocide but says god love humanity, and I have to live by laws influenced by this book, let's talk about those parts that aren't typically talked about by the institutions that have a financial interest in membership. I think it exposes christianity as inconsistent and man made at best, or at least is another piece of evidence pointing towards that.

Ehhh true. You can learn all sorts of good stuff in world religions in college. Still believe in god though as well as the bible being overall good for humanity.

http://www.amazon.com/Comparative-Re.../dp/0470230657


Ermagerd all the religions are linked starting at $3.01 used and requires 6th grade reading level.

Worship is still important though. Thats where I think the atheists miss the boat.

 

[Retro Rob]

"But..but..you are putting words into my mouth" -RetroRob

You remind me of that strange little boy that gets ignored at school who would say things to get attention.

 

[soulcougher73]

You remind me of that strange little boy that gets ignored at school who would say things to get attention.

More irony. It never ends with you. You make this thread a better place Rob. :thumbsup:

 

[jackstar7]

Worship is still important though. Thats where I think the atheists miss the boat.

Someone can't just be humble? That's not enough?

What is the value of worship, as you see it?

 

[SlowSpyder]

Ehhh true. You can learn all sorts of good stuff in world religions in college. Still believe in god though as well as the bible being overall good for humanity.

I don't share that opinion, but the evidence is out there for everyone to decide for themselves.

Worship is still important though. Thats where I think the atheists miss the boat.

Worship isn't important to me as I wouldn't know what to worship, how it would want to be worshiped, or if something to worship even exists. It is my opinion that all the abrahamic religions are man made, I do understand that they share some common threads. I also understand that the abrahamic religions at least in part appear to borrow stories and sayings from even older religions.

I am not claiming that I absolutely believe that or am sure there is no god / higher power. But to me, with how big this universe is, with how very likely it is that there is other life on other planets that will have no idea who allah or jesus are, if there is a higher power it isn't likely to be related in anyway to any of the human-centric religions here on earth.

 

[alzan]

The contortions and hoops of fire through which theists put themselves to justify their belief and defend their G-d in this thread are both astounding and ineffably sad.

Why exactly does an omniscient deity need defense for its' actions?

Surely it can defend itself, can it not?

As well, why do Christians (followers of Christ) find a need to defend the actions of the G-d from the OT?

 

[SlowSpyder]

The contortions and hoops of fire through which theists put themselves to justify their belief and defend their G-d in this thread are both astounding and ineffably sad.

Why exactly does an omniscient deity need defense for its' actions?

Surely it can defend itself, can it not?

As well, why do Christians (followers of Christ) find a need to defend the actions of the G-d from the OT?

I've always felt that way as well. That believers either have to simply ignore parts of their holy book they don't like as if they aren't there, or bend and stretch reality to make what they want to believe work.

Let's take the discussion about innocents being killed by god back a bit. What did Native Americans, indigenous Australians, South American tribes, etc. do to deserve all being drowned in a giant global flood (that somehow left zero evidence) due to god's wraith? People who at the time were never told of the existence of the old testament god, but all executed by him for their wickedness that they didn't even know about.

How does a believer justify that? How is that the act of a loving god? Maybe by insisting that people weren't alive in that part of the world at that time and then try and find a way to discredit archaeological evidence? Claim that part of the bible is metaphoric (then what other parts are as well)? "Because god"? Claim the entire continent was wicked so they all got what they deserved, man woman and child?


Or maybe, just maybe, their holy book is a fraud.

 

[soulcougher73]

Also wouldnt an all knowing god know he created this mess from the get go? Youd think a perfect infallable being could get it right the first time with zero fuss. Or maybe creating something you give free will but tack on consequences isnt the way to go. But he should have known that before he even started. This god sounds lame in hind sight.

 

[Retro Rob]

Why exactly does an omniscient deity need defense for its' actions?

This is rich. You ask US questions about him, then complain when we defend him?

Surely it can defend itself, can it not?

Maybe try asking "it" instead of its followers next time.

As well, why do Christians (followers of Christ) find a need to defend the actions of the G-d from the OT?

Because atheists open threads like this asking questions about it. You stop doing that, we'll stop defending.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Also wouldnt an all knowing god know he created this mess from the get go? Youd think a perfect infallable being could get it right the first time with zero fuss. Or maybe creating something you give free will but tack on consequences isnt the way to go. But he should have known that before he even started. This god sounds lame in hind sight.

For somebody who claims to be enlightened and to have studied scriptures you make some very ignorant statements!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Because atheists open threads like this asking questions about it. You stop doing that, we'll stop defending.

Let me add more facts to your answer --
Because atheists with no working knowledge of the scriptures or having read the scriptures like a book with no insight to what exactly was being said other than I read this........ie....they do not care about the context....or what came before or after.....ask questions about things they have no intent on saying -- wow-I did not know that!! Thank You for explaining this to me!!

They know full well that even if things were explained using links and Biblical proof and reason that they would still have a grounds to reject any answer to the question that they disagreed with,,,,

 

[Retro Rob]

Let me add more facts to your answer --
Because atheists with no working knowledge of the scriptures or having read the scriptures like a book with no insight to what exactly was being said other than I read this........ie....they do not care about the context.

100% on with the bold. Context simply doesn't matter, because actually understanding context would force them to change their opinons...most simply aren't interested in being wrong about the Bible.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You don't have to abide by the rules you give your children no more than God has to abide by the rules he gives his.

It surprises me that "ultimate hypocrite" is among the character facets of a being you voluntarily worship.

Actually, on second thought... no, it doesn't.

Just be aware that you can't ever claim that morality is objective in a universe created by such a god.

As Judge, he has the ability to see the hearts of persons, the future of them, and the inclinations of folks.

Oh god sees the future, does he? We can therefore conclude that the future already exists and it is fixed.

How can your regard a being as "just" when it passes judgement on beings that have no moral agency?

These abilities make what he does above reproach.

Clearly you haven't given it any serious thought.

 

[alzan]

I've always felt that way as well. That believers either have to simply ignore parts of their holy book they don't like as if they aren't there, or bend and stretch reality to make what they want to believe work.

Let's take the discussion about innocents being killed by god back a bit. What did Native Americans, indigenous Australians, South American tribes, etc. do to deserve all being drowned in a giant global flood (that somehow left zero evidence) due to god's wraith? People who at the time were never told of the existence of the old testament god, but all executed by him for their wickedness that they didn't even know about.

How does a believer justify that? How is that the act of a loving god? Maybe by insisting that people weren't alive in that part of the world at that time and then try and find a way to discredit archaeological evidence? Claim that part of the bible is metaphoric (then what other parts are as well)? "Because god"? Claim the entire continent was wicked so they all got what they deserved, man woman and child?


Or maybe, just maybe, their holy book is a fraud.

I do my best to separate the good Christians from the bad Christians; the bad being those who denigrate LGBTQ folks and fight against their equal rights, those in this thread who defend the indefensible acts of their deity, etc., from the good; those who follow the Golden Rule, who truly care for their fellow humans whether they be Christian or otherwise.

That tactic doesn't always work with my wife who is a Christian; for some reason I haven't yet been able to figure out she can see and even agrees with my separation reasoning if we're discussing Muslims and not judging the whole population by the actions of the ~1% who are violent and extreme, but when it comes to Christians she sees all of my negative statements surrounding the bad Christians as attacking the whole of Christianity. I know some of it is due to it being her faith but the other part, sigh... perhaps I'll never know.

I suppose Christians such as RR, JY, and a few others find some level of comfort in the idea that their G-d cares enough for them to wipe out both enemies of the Israelites and the enemies of faithful Christians. We, as atheists and agnostics cannot resolve G-ds' actions as anything close to moral (certainly not moral to us) but that does present an interesting quandary; since humans are "created in G-ds' image" why wouldn't it be immoral for G-d as well as for us to kill innocent children and babies, never mind the adults who didn't follow the thought process of Amalek or the leader of the Canaanites or other tribes killed by G-d?

Perhaps the Bible is fraud. Possibly; as an agnostic I am a "cowardly" atheist according to some and won't definitively call it fraud. I'll just say that I think some of its' readers are misguided. I don't find calling any holy writings "fraud" particularly helpful or conducive; either to internet discussions, friendships and certainly not to marriage maintenance. But I do think they're good in that most people who read them and celebrate them are good folk.

 

[alzan]

This is rich. You ask US questions about him, then complain when we defend him?



Maybe try asking "it" instead of its followers next time.



Because atheists open threads like this asking questions about it. You stop doing that, we'll stop defending.

I find it interesting that you see my question as a complaint, most people reading it wouldn't find it so.

Since I don't think I'll ever be able to prove "its" existence, asking it would be impossible. Unless its' going to make itself known and available for questions, asking it's followers and adherents is our only choice.

Well this is a forum where people, within certain guidelines, can create any thread topic they choose. It's really your choice to get defensive about questions posed in the thread.

100% on with the bold. Context simply doesn't matter, because actually understanding context would force them to change their opinions...most simply aren't interested in being wrong about the Bible.

The same can be said for some Christians, a couple of them here in this thread. Funny that...

You don't have to abide by the rules you give your children no more than God has to abide by the rules he gives his.

True, although you'll end up with willful and disobedient children. Children need consistency and rules; a parent who uses the "do as I say and not as I do" attitude will end up with children who don't respect their parent or any other authority figure for that matter.

 

[alkemyst]

One of the problems is people aren't very literate/intelligent to begin with...they get ANYTHING they read usually screwed up.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Let me add more facts to your answer --
Because atheists with no working knowledge of the scriptures or having read the scriptures like a book with no insight to what exactly was being said other than I read this........ie....they do not care about the context....or what came before or after.....ask questions about things they have no intent on saying -- wow-I did not know that!! Thank You for explaining this to me!!

They know full well that even if things were explained using links and Biblical proof and reason that they would still have a grounds to reject any answer to the question that they disagreed with,,,,

Could you give me an example of something I've said that you feel I didn't understand the context of, the before / after cause / effect, etc. Please.

You keep assuming that when someone has a different view of the bible than you that they don't understand it or the context. Yet there are how many different c&#822;u&#822;l&#822;t&#822;s&#822; sects of christianity? Why can't everyone get on the same wavelength regarding god's perfect word?

100% on with the bold. Context simply doesn't matter, because actually understanding context would force them to change their opinons...most simply aren't interested in being wrong about the Bible.

I'm going to challenge you on that claim. Please tell me in your own words what was happening on earth at the time that was so terrible that god had to exterminate all life except one family and a small sample of animals? Show me the context that makes me change my opinion that the great flood would have been an act of evil. Tell me why everyone had to die for Noah and his family to repopulate all of earth (LOL) please.

Here, no context, I'm just ignorant after all, you know. So please, sugar coat or explain the context of this and why it is just:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)


I'm all ears, convince me this isn't evil. Please explain the context that would 'force me to change my opinion'.

 

[Caravaggio]

To retro Rob.
All your posts carry the suffix that:

"About on third of American scientists claim there is a God to whom they pray.."

All depends on what you mean by 'scientist'. Might be true for science teachers in Harper's Ferry but the top US scientists, those who are in the National Academy of Science, are overwhelmingly non-theists. Only 7% believe.

In the UK, a far more atheist place, the top scientists are members of the "Royal Society". Only 3% of them believe. Probably fewer believe in Royalty either, a slight irony there...

There is an obvious tension between the scientific method and 'revealed' truths that underpin faith. The more one values the former the less the latter seems to be tenable.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I do my best to separate the good Christians from the bad Christians; the bad being those who denigrate LGBTQ folks and fight against their equal rights, those in this thread who defend the indefensible acts of their deity, etc., from the good; those who follow the Golden Rule, who truly care for their fellow humans whether they be Christian or otherwise.

That tactic doesn't always work with my wife who is a Christian; for some reason I haven't yet been able to figure out she can see and even agrees with my separation reasoning if we're discussing Muslims and not judging the whole population by the actions of the ~1% who are violent and extreme, but when it comes to Christians she sees all of my negative statements surrounding the bad Christians as attacking the whole of Christianity. I know some of it is due to it being her faith but the other part, sigh... perhaps I'll never know.

I've run into this same scenario time and time again. I have family that are active in and have strong christian faith. We've butted heads occasionally, but never anything serious. But, I've noticed too that any critique of their god or the bible seems to be seen as an attack on that person, and I never mean it that way. I think it is an emotional bond to a 'blankie', or along those lines, something that offers security and comfort. Anything that threatens that security gets processed differently in otherwise perfectly logical people.

I suppose Christians such as RR, JY, and a few others find some level of comfort in the idea that their G-d cares enough for them to wipe out both enemies of the Israelites and the enemies of faithful Christians. We, as atheists and agnostics cannot resolve G-ds' actions as anything close to moral (certainly not moral to us) but that does present an interesting quandary; since humans are "created in G-ds' image" why wouldn't it be immoral for G-d as well as for us to kill innocent children and babies, never mind the adults who didn't follow the thought process of Amalek or the leader of the Canaanites or other tribes killed by G-d?

This is something I've thought about as well, believe it or not. If he created me,, why would I ever be punished for using the faculties he provided me with as created in his image?

Perhaps the Bible is fraud. Possibly; as an agnostic I am a "cowardly" atheist according to some and won't definitively call it fraud. I'll just say that I think some of its' readers are misguided. I don't find calling any holy writings "fraud" particularly helpful or conducive; either to internet discussions, friendships and certainly not to marriage maintenance. But I do think they're good in that most people who read them and celebrate them are good folk.

I don't know if there is a higher power or not in this universe. There are kinds of questions science doesn't know the answer to, but I think one day will resolve. Then there are questions that I'm not confident will ever get answered as they seem beyond human abilities (but then again maybe I just lack imagination, I am sure someone from 100AD brought to our current time would be floored by the knowledge and tech we have).

While I don't mean to instigate, I am calling it like I see it with christianity. I believe it is a fraud, a phony, not real, etc. There may be a higher power in the universe, but I don't see christianity as that higher power. It is a business that sells false hope and keeps people in fear while borrowing heavily from other older religions that have fallen by the wayside. It's nothing special, just another cookie cutter religion that happens to be winning the popularity contest during our time here on earth. I try to keep my mind open, but the more I learn about it, the more obvious to me it becomes, it's a fraud. Of course this is just my $.02, others may see it differentlly.