The shuttle has become the costliest, most dangerous transport system ever built

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Pollock

Golden Member
Jan 24, 2004
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Clearly by some statistics is was safer and by some quite dangerous.
Since the shuttle went such great distances each flight if you judge fatalities by miles it was pretty good. If you judge it by number of flights, it was a death trap. If you judge it by number of people it carried, death trap.
So, by some valid reasoning it was pretty dangerous. Heck, next to Apollo,if you only count the flights and not the ground test accident the Shuttle was infinitely more dangerous.

If you compare it to disposable, one use launch vehichles it still has a terrible record.

How can you only count the Apollo flights but not the ground accident of Apollo 1? 16 out of 17 successful missions = 94.1% success rate.

130 out of 132 shuttle missions is 98.5% success rate. Obviously there are many more stats than that but WTH are you talking about? Death trap? Infinitely more dangerous? Really?

I love how you trivialized the lives of three men in order to support your point.

This.

Would you get into a car if someone told you up front that it has a 1 in 66 change of blowing you to smithereens each time you drove it?? It's not "1 out of 66 times, you get a flat tire." It's 1 out of 66 times, YOU DIE.

Bad analogy.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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130 out of 132 shuttle missions is 98.5% success rate. Obviously there are many more stats than that but WTH are you talking about? Death trap? Infinitely more dangerous? Really?

Even then it's still ridiculous to complain. Of course its fucking dangerous - we can minimize the risks to a degree, but all the people going up understand the chances they are taking. You're flying into SPACE on what is essentially a controlled bomb and reentering the atmosphere with the protection of a delicate heat-shield.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
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I think the problem that the shuttle ran into is very similar to the technology problems we all experience every day. When the shuttle was constructed it was designed with tech that was the most current for the time. That meant locking in certain things. The processor of choice at the time was the 8051. The 8051 is an excellent MCU, it is still used today in thousands of applications and the capabilities of it remain pretty impressive for something designed so long ago. I have one in my parts bin because it is so useful . The problem with designing the shuttle to be reusable is that you limit the ability to move forward as technology improves. You can't scrap the entire computer setup when things improve because that requires updating code, wiring, interfaces, displays, and more. The same for other mechanical components. A new servo type is invented and it can't be used because to do so would require replacing an entire structural component.

That is what happens when you plan for any technology to be used for a long period of time, you give up innovation .
 

NetWareHead

THAT guy
Aug 10, 2002
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Of those programs involving disposable spacecraft, only the Soyuz has had even remotely as many launches as the STS, and it's had its share of failures and fatalities as well.

"Infinitely more dangerous." You seem to have a real talent for hyperbole.

Definitely not hyperbole at all. The Shuttle is the only launch vehicle in existence that does not have have a launch escape system in place. From the firing of its solid rocket boosters at launch time, there is no escape/abort mode until solid rocket burnout 123 seconds later. They simply cannot be turned off. The shuttle is committed to riding that ride to hell until burnout.

The Challenger disaster could have been prevented if there was a suitable launch escape system, something that is not really an issue in other launch vehicles. Instead, imagining astronauts bailing out of the shuttle while flying several times the speed of sound at over 100,000 feet of altitude sure sounds like a death trap to me. Or in the case of the Challenger astronauts, a worse fate awaited them when the crew module slammed into the atlantic ocean after a long descent...

There is a reason why NASA is returning to tried and true apollo style capsule technology (with a launch escape tower). And while we are talking about soyuz, there has not been a fatality in a soyuz flights since 1971 (using an older design and none in the recent flights using the modern design). Even the Chinese space program has copied Soyuz's basic design. With 1700 flights under its belt, Soyuz is the most successful and arguably the safest spacecraft.
 

GoSharks

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 1999
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How can you only count the Apollo flights but not the ground accident of Apollo 1? 16 out of 17 successful missions = 94.1% success rate.
Apollo 1 wasn't an actual "go to space" mission and was only a ground test.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Administrator
Mar 5, 2001
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That depends. Does the car go into OUTER FUCKING SPACE?

It doesn't matter. I'm saying that something that kills its users 1 out of every 66 times is excessively dangerous.

Someone made the comment that the thing was a death trap. Someone else disagreed. Name something else that's considered a "death trap" that has a higher probability of killing someone who is using it? Just because "going into space is dangerous" doesn't make the shuttle not dangerous. And, compared to other spacecraft, such as Soyuz, it has an incredibly high failure rate. I disagree with the hyperbole of "infinitely more dangerous", but the statistics remain - the shuttle is/was an incredibly dangerous space craft.
 
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shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
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Apollo 1 wasn't an actual "go to space" mission and was only a ground test.

Apollo 1 was to launch on February 21st, it exploded while they were doing pre launch testing in January. Every Apollo mission went through this type of testing so to say that Apollo 1 was never a "go to space" mission is incorrect.
 

GoSharks

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 1999
3,057
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Apollo 1 was to launch on February 21st, it exploded while they were doing pre launch testing in January. Every Apollo mission went through this type of testing so to say that Apollo 1 was never a "go to space" mission is incorrect.

Yeah, the naming is all screwed up. Apollo 1 wasn't going to space on Jan 27. That's what I meant.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Wow, I'm glad the government isn't contemplating something even more complex, like getting involved with health care. That would be scary.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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Wow, I'm glad the government isn't contemplating something even more complex, like getting involved with health care. That would be scary.

That's a pretty dumb comment to make. Just because there is some incompetence in some areas of government doesn't mean that it is pervasive throughout the entire system or that that incompetence cannot be combated by hiring/voting for qualified people who can do good work or write good laws/regulations.
 

daw123

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2008
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Wow, I'm glad the government isn't contemplating something even more complex, like getting involved with health care. That would be scary.

I don't know about the States, but the UK is FUBAR'd pretty much across the board in all sectors.

The Government has been p*ssing away the taxpayers money without putting anything in reserve whilst the economy was excellent and now that it has gone belly-up, which it was always going to do sooner or later, we are financially screwed.

It also doesn't help when you have morons in the Government (***cough*** Gordon Brown ***cough***) who sell off 60% of the nations gold reserves prior to gold prices increasing substantially in value.

Rant over and sorry for going off on a tangent into P&N territory.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
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Apart from the technology (lighter materials, gps, spy satellites, communications, telescopes, etc) and scientific discoveries/advances (everything from big bang info to tracking asteroids)...yeah, 'nothing'. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Lighter materials has no direct relation to the space program, spy satellites don't help me, gps doesn't help me, 99% of civilian communications are land based, telescopes don't give us anything and they don't need to be in space, etc. You can argue practicality of GPS, but can't say that the trillions spent throwing junk in space is worth GPS. Space program is not only unnecessary but most of what is done with it doesn't give us any benefit. We have a failing global economy and the space program is a luxury that we can cut without consequence.
 

erikistired

Diamond Member
Sep 27, 2000
9,739
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Would you get into a car if someone told you up front that it has a 1 in 66 change of blowing you to smithereens each time you drove it?? It's not "1 out of 66 times, you get a flat tire." It's 1 out of 66 times, YOU DIE.

at one point i'm sure cars WERE this dangerous. and yet people kept getting into them, and then finding out ways to make them safer.

It doesn't matter. I'm saying that something that kills its users 1 out of every 66 times is excessively dangerous.

Someone made the comment that the thing was a death trap. Someone else disagreed. Name something else that's considered a "death trap" that has a higher probability of killing someone who is using it? Just because "going into space is dangerous" doesn't make the shuttle not dangerous. And, compared to other spacecraft, such as Soyuz, it has an incredibly high failure rate. I disagree with the hyperbole of "infinitely more dangerous", but the statistics remain - the shuttle is/was an incredibly dangerous space craft.

quite honestly, what they are doing is dangerous. going from my house to the store isn't nearly as dangerous, so it would be expected that it wouldn't kill you. going into space is pretty hardcore, so there is a degree of difficulty that has to be factored in before you can call it a "death trap". you can't even really compare the soyuz because what the shuttle is capable of is so much more than a capsule. i wonder if they'd make their 50 flights a year if they would have had the ability to make it as safe as a car (that goes into OUTER SPACE!) or at least closer statistically.
 
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ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,392
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What is NASA's budget like 2% GDP? Guess what % of GDP the Pentagon's budget is. No go on guess. Of course no one's going to mess with the military industrial complex or anything. After all it's money well spent keeping you safe by finding WMD to building other nations while ignoring this one and finding out about India and Pakistan's nucular buildup before it happened.....oh wait...

2010 [5] 18,724
that's millions, so a little under $19 billion.

Current-dollar GDP

Current-dollar GDP -- the market value of the nation's output of goods and services -- increased
4.2 percent, or $151.5 billion, in the third quarter to a level of $14,730.2 billion. In the second quarter,
current-dollar GDP increased 3.7 percent, or $132.3 billion.
and that's about $15 trillion.

iow, 00.127% of GDP.

DoD total outlays FY 2010: 579,698 million

or about 3.94% of GDP
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,110
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What is NASA's budget like 2% GDP? Guess what % of GDP the Pentagon's budget is. No go on guess. Of course no one's going to mess with the military industrial complex or anything. After all it's money well spent keeping you safe by finding WMD to building other nations while ignoring this one and finding out about India and Pakistan's nucular buildup before it happened.....oh wait...

GDP is something like $13T or so.
NASA's budget, i think, is about $20B. so more like 0.15% GDP.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,861
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They're also forgetting to mention the Shuttle program to this day the most complex piece of engineering ever undertaken by mankind (the LHC may have surpassed it now, not sure).
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
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We have never gained a thing for all the money we have shot into space. Worst investment in the history of the world.

TripleFacePalm_display_image.jpg
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
That's a pretty dumb comment to make. Just because there is some incompetence in some areas of government doesn't mean that it is pervasive throughout the entire system or that that incompetence cannot be combated by hiring/voting for qualified people who can do good work or write good laws/regulations.

In a fantasy world sure, but those who do make legislation have a better understanding of rocketry than health care. I see their handiwork every day on the job. Even you don't get that medicine can't be defined by regulation. The variables in day to day treatment are far more numerous and interactions within the system more complex than NASA yet they are confident that they can fix a system they have no clue about and put political cosiderations above getting professional consultation. The flying spaghetti monster of legislated healthcare is a fiction.
 
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BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
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Lighter materials has no direct relation to the space program, spy satellites don't help me, gps doesn't help me, 99% of civilian communications are land based, telescopes don't give us anything and they don't need to be in space, etc. You can argue practicality of GPS, but can't say that the trillions spent throwing junk in space is worth GPS. Space program is not only unnecessary but most of what is done with it doesn't give us any benefit. We have a failing global economy and the space program is a luxury that we can cut without consequence.

The space program has helped fuel the development of more sophisticated computers, more advanced materials, better propulsion systems, a better understanding of the human body and how it works, and, truthfully, it has inspired a whole generation of kids to take up science, math, and engineering. It has vastly expanded our understanding of ourselves, our planet, and the universe we exist in.

How you can trivialize these things is truly beyond me and, while I understand your point about the economy, I don't see how the space program should be the only thing that suffers.
 
Dec 26, 2007
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Lighter materials has no direct relation to the space program,

Incorrect. Making things that are stronger and lighter allow for a higher load capacity (given the same gross weights). Lighter also means cheaper to fly since less weight is being lifted.

This benefit is lost to some extent though since launch vehicles have a long development and are usually in service for a while, so new tech has to be incorporated into future vehicles. This does benefit the payloads they carry though in allowing them to carry more stuff for the same space restrictions.

spy satellites don't help me,

They do help the government though, which in turns helps protect you. The cold war showed how spy satellites can be used effectively, and without them we might not have had a "cold" war.

Besides this, a lot of satellites are used for civilian use. For example google maps satellite view.

gps doesn't help me,

You might not directly use it, but GPS is used by many things and helps many people. It allows for guided munitions that are much more accurate than dumb boms, and don't require LOS like laser does or tv type guided munitions. Less people dying is a good thing (if not ideal since people are still dying). GPS is also used to watch seismic sites like Mount St Helens, which could provide a warning to people living there of an impending eruption. GPS has helped us map out our planet in ways it never was able to before (in addition to other satellites). GPS has given ships the ability to easily determine position which was previously not as easily done ( source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigation ). Also, satellites can help prevent disasters like the titanic from happening again, and help keep a ship from taking a course which runs into weather events like hurricanes. GPS also is used by many for things like OnStar.

99% of civilian communications are land based,

Maybe, but satellite communcations are very important. Without them ships at sea would have no way to communicate. Without them people in remote areas of the world would be unable to contact the outside world.

telescopes don't give us anything

Maybe nothing directly, but they do help our understanding of our universe. They allow us to learn things like super massive black holes are at the center of almost all galaxies. That might not help any person directly to know that, but it allows us as a species to become more evolved and advanced. It builds a foundation for future generations to build off of.

and they don't need to be in space,

This is absolute crap if you know anything about optics. A telescope on earth will never be able to see as clearly as a telescope in space.

etc. You can argue practicality of GPS, but can't say that the trillions spent throwing junk in space is worth GPS.

GPS is one example of useful tech that was due to space programs.

http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/pdf/Shuttle_spinoffs.pdf
http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/Spinoff2009/pdf/spinoff2009.pdf <--over 100 pages of inventions/products/tech that came from NASA's space programs.

Space program is not only unnecessary but most of what is done with it doesn't give us any benefit.

Check prior links.

We have a failing global economy and the space program is a luxury that we can cut without consequence.

As previously mentioned, NASAs budget is .032% of the DoD's budget for 2010, and is only 1/8 of 1% of our countries GDP. I don't know about you, but I think that's a worth while investment.
 
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