- Jan 31, 2005
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I occasionally hear, on here and elsewhere, how people think guns (and other weapons) are dangerous. Some think carrying a pistolon you (Concealed carry) is asking for trouble. They think its not needed, think its a risk or an ego booster or some other nonsense.
So I thought I would share this. Its certainly notmy story thankfull. But I think it goes to show why people carry firearms and more importantly why you should always be aware of your surroundings. No, things like this dont happen to everyone. But, they do happen, in some degree or antoher, everyday. The police do not have the responsibility to save you, their job is to apprehend the criminal after the crime.
Had this individual not been carrying, and not been aware of his surroundings it could have turned out very differently, and much worse.
Yes, its a long read, but I think its well worth it. It reminds you bad things sometimes happen to good people no matter how hard they try to keep it from happening. No one carries a gun to be a badass, or to boost their ego or make up for a small penis or whatever else. People carry firearms on themselves to defend their live and the lives of thier loved ones.
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A guy and his lady friend are walking down a street after eating a nice steak dinner on Friday night. The area is busy and the only parking available was a nice walk away, not a problem on a beautiful October night.
So the guy, who has had a lot of firearms courses notices a van slowly driving the other direction on the street. The guy notices the deep gurgling sound of the exhaust, but really doesn't think much of it. Then he notices a couple of thugs crossing the street; said GTer is uncomfortable because he and his lady friend seemed to get too much attention from the guys crossing the street. One of those "it just doesn't feel right" type of things.
So the couple continue walking toward the parking garage, when the GTer notices the gurgling sound of that van slowly passing by them. Then the GTer, who regularly uses windows to watch his 6, notices the two thugs that crossed the street coming up behind them. One of the thugs is clearly holding his right hand suspiciously around his belt buckle area. Then said GTer notices the van stopped on the side of the street just ahead and the 2 thugs behind them are getting closer.
GTer tells his lady friend that they are going to duck into any open business they see, but there were not any available. Just as they were coming up on the van, 2 ****-eaters jump out of the van and block the sidewalk. Gter draws his Kimber .45, and moves to engage the thugs 5 feet behind them; the intention was to go to low ready and size up the situation. The two from the van did not appear to be armed and one behind them was already spotted as armed.
So GTer turns and starts to shout at the two thugs on foot when the armed one begins to pull a revolver (SW .38 special). GTer, had the jump because the thugs in the rear did not see him remove his pistol from his daytimer style carry (they had been where alcohol was sold, but he did not drink).
The GTer always, always, always shoots failure drill at the range and trains at least twice a month.
As the BG #1 pulls the pistol, the GTer puts two rounds COM and moves up and puts one in the eye area. There was absolutely no reaction to the chest shots in the BG. The second thug turns to his falling comrade and tries to get his pistol, as GTer puts 2 slugs in his COM and one in the side of the head, GTer didn't know he hit BG #2 with the first 2 rounds. The second thug didn't have time to get turned around to face GTer, and didn't go down from the two to the chest, so said GTer puts one is the side of his head. Both third shots, at 5 feet, were very messy. Luckily for GTer, the second thug did get his hands on the pistol (a fact that would greatly help him in the future). So after the two in the rear were neutralized, GTer turned to check on the two from the van who had started moving his way. When GTer turned to engage them, gun at low ready, they turned and ran to the van got in and the van sped off.
The thugs were linked to other rapes and 2 abductions of similar method, and had sheets as long as your arm. (funny how that wasn't admissable in court) The thugs from the van looked more pissed than scared, and GTer would encounter them later in life. Turns out they were members of the Gangsta Disciples. The Gangsta's don't take lightly to seeing their bro.s being shot down in the street.
The aftermath: Said GTer was charged with manslaughter (the jury was given other options too) and was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. Deliberations took less than 3 hours. Some of the city council PERSONS believed that failure drill represented too much force and GTer should have not made the last shot on the guys. Of course, if he had not made the third shots in the failure drill, the thugs would be alive today. So city council PERSON, pressures the DA and viola, the decision is made to charge him.
The cost to GTer to stay out of prison was $18,000+. That works out to be $3k per shot, or $9k per bad guy.
The situation doesn't often end as well in his dreams, as it did in real time, but he never can quite get it behind him. He carries a strange sense of guilt.
The girlfriend that GTer was trying to protect, broke up with him 3 weeks later. She just never could get over it and could not understand the violent nature of his counterattack. She dumped him, which broke his heart, but she was a very good witness for his defense, and for that he is eternally grateful.
The follow up encounters (turns out during a trial, it isn't hard to get the home address of the defendant) with the Gangsta Disciples were a little better; and no charges were placed in those instances.
Sorry if GTer wasn't armed with and AK, but then they would never have picked us to attack.
The morals of the story: Live with what happened, or with what may have happened- his girlfriend being abducted..... It is better to be tried by 12.... When the SHTF, you fall back on your training in automatic mode. So train well and often.
I didn't mean to hijack this thread, but greg brought it up. I started out telling it in third person because I really don't want to sound like I am proud of it or bragging and I don't mean to be. I did what I had to do and was vindicated.
Yes it did happen. October 1998. The whole thing exhausted a lot of my savings, and some credit card debt that has since been paid for. The PD Commander on the scene allowed me to go home that night and to come in the following week with a lawyer to make a statement. Everything was clear and obvious to them that night, some officers even commended me.
My initial intentions were to confront them while in the low ready, and hopefully shout them off. As I turned around, the guy had his hand on his gun and was pulling it. I am sure that if he had seen my gun sooner, he would have it pointed at me. And there is the possibility that he drew because he saw mine, but had he stuck his hands up or ran off, I would not have shot. That and their priors convinced the PD that I had acted properly. There were 3 witnesses approaching from behind the van ****-eaters that saw what the van did, and the whole thing. They told the police that night, I had to do it. When they blocked us in, I had no choice but to act.
I was handcuffed and locked in a patrol car for a while, where I puked up that fine steak I had just eaten. Odd feeling when it is over.
The DA prosecuted under political pressure. I did not spend any time in jail, because it was only after the political pressure did the DA decide to prosecute. I surrendered and had bail arranged before we went in. The PD were really nice to me, and they even indicated they thought I was getting a ****ty deal. The Assistant DA that handled the case did not seem to be too interested in getting a conviction. The investigating officers were better witnesses for me than the state. She (assistant DA) allowed my lawyer to seat my dream jury (some code words there) and she let him get some stuff out. At one time my attorney indicated that she wasn't pushing it because of the way she conducted herself.
Girlfriend: Leslie was a nurse and one of those "I could never hurt anyone" types; I am a nurse and we heal...blah blah blah. Another long story. She did not know I was armed that night, or most nights we were together. I found out early that she didn't warm up to guns, so I didn't push it. No huge loss, the timing is what hurt. With all else going on, the last thing I needed was her breaking up. It was not until the trial that I really knew what she would do on the stand. What she did on the stand was enough to settle it for me. I hold no grudges against her, never did. But I won't date another nurse.
As far as the terminal ballistics of the .45. In classes my failure drill from concealed holster generally run in the 1.5 to 2 second area. I doubt any handgun caliber will create adequate results in less than two seconds. I just opened up like I had trained to do. I was going with the 3rd shot, unless the guy was on the ground out of it. When I say there was no reaction to the first two rounds, I meant his head was still where I expected it to be. I never have planned to stop and fully asses the vital signs of an attacker. My plan has always been to do the failure drill if the pumpkin was there and it was. It all happens so fast, you wouldn't believe it.
Since I was innocent, I can still carry.
As for the follow up visits from the Gangstas, I prefer not to get into that right now. Very long ugly stories. On 2 possibly 3 (the 3rd I spotted them and called the police and kept riding around the parking lot, the police came and ran them off so I don't know what their intentions were or if they were there to visit me) different occasions there were young gentlemen waiting for me when I got off work, once was an attempt to kick in my front door while I was home. I highly recommend the Remington 870.
I moved after the initial incident, and the phone company messed up and my 'unlisted' number got listed. So I moved again. A Lt. with the gang squad said that after a while, the membership would turn over to the point they would forget about me. That officer was at my trial and alerted me to potential retribution. There were a Gangstas at my trial. Relatives of the deceased I guess. I currently live in another city with an unlisted number. It has been 4 years, so I hope the follow up visits will cease. Everyday when I step out to get in my vehicle, I stop and scan the parking lot real good. My experiences have served to give me an edge and to keep me on my toes, and to keep me awake at night. Better than the alternative.
If I may offer one piece of advice to anyone who will listen:
If you are ever involved in a shooting, resist all urges to look at the guy after he is down. Move out of the area, and don't ever look at them. You want to remember them as a threat, not as a corpse.
Thanks for letting me get if off my chest.
quote:
Originally posted by Hackit25
I am sure if I have to use my pistol in self defense it will be a good shoot. I am worried about where ill get money for the defense in court!
Just don't say a word after it happens. Tell the officers you will cooperate, but you are in no condition to make a statement. Every word you say will cost you money.
If you are in the right, and it was a good shoot, you won't have much of an attorney fee. Just for one to meet with you and go in to make a statement. Your range will probably know a good lawyer for this purpose.
I would be willing to be most pro gun lawyers will allow you to pay as you can.
My problems came from politics. Basically, a democrat council woman did not like the idea of me engaging her constituents. Other than that, the PD would not have recommended charges. I thought I was free and clear until an investigator called me and told me what was going on. He suggested I retain a lawyer and to give him, the officer, the lawyers name so we could arrange a time for me to come in and surrender myself. That made it a lot smoother.
Cooperate with the PD as much as possible. If it is obvious your shooting was just, they won't push you for any answers. In fact, they may even suggest that you not say anything without a lawyer present.
The officers on the beat sees what happens to victims and are usually glad when the intended victim gets the upper hand.
Member question:
?With all the "political pressure" and subtle words, do I pick up the hint that there were some racial issues that came into play that caused the political PERSON to feel the need to file charges??
Shooter reply:
White man defends against young black males. Black female council member with a mouth like Cynthia McKinney. White District attorney, in the south in a city with a predominately black population. Draw your own conclusions.
If I may add:
black officer handcuffed me, apologized for having to do it but it was procedure and he would face disciplinary action if he didn't;
the same black officer uncuffed me, told me it appeared to be a justified shoot and acknowledged I did what needed to be done, suggested I get an attorney and reminded me of my right to remain silent. Told me not to worry about the puke in the car, was very considerate and kind;
black and white detectives for follow up meetings, and to take my statement all had same mindset with regard to it being a justified shoot. It was the black detective that called and told me they would not recommend charges;
black Lt on gang unit gave me feedback and 'intel' about what to expect from the gang in the future and how to handle it. He also gave me his card, cell phone number and pager number if I ever needed his help.
So the problem for me was a politician.
In any situation, the DA is the ultimate decision maker to decide if charges are placed. Usually the DA is or was a politician and they cannot discount a return to politics at some time in the future. When the DA gets a lot of nasty attacks, it will influence his opinion. I don't know what made him decide to go through with it, but for some reason he did. Politics being the way they are, never doubt anything. Do what you have to do, make sure you are in the right, and be ready to support it. Luckily it is the jury that has the last say. In Membabwe, you have to consider who will be on your jury. hint hint.
I got the gun back after about a month. I had others so I was able to carry.
Good question about the reload, that is a situation that has bugged me since.
The daytimer carry has a stretchable strap for an extra mag. I usually put one in the strap and have another stacked beside it, floating free. When it is zipped, the mag stays secure. It was a dreadful situation after I fired 6 of 9. The daytimer was on the ground, not completely unzipped and it would have been a struggle to quickly reload. I often wonder if I would have had the presence of mind to ration the next 3 rounds, glad I didn't have to do it. Technically, the floating magazine could have fallen on the ground around my feet if I had totally unzipped the daytimer, but the I didn't take the time to do that. I have adjusted my carry method since. I still carry the 1911, with the 2 extra mags, I keep a mag in my left trouser pocket, and have a G19 or a P99 on my ankle, usually the P99. I use a handy stitch to create a pouch in my pocket that holds the mag vertical and high so I can get it quickly. In the slacks I wear, it works pretty well.
The daytimer carry does have that drawback, but we went to a restaurant where alcohol was sold (this point was never pursued by the DA) and without the daytimer, I would not have felt as comfortable carrying in a no carry zone. It was a trade off of smooth use vs. discrete in an area that is illegal to carry in. I still carry the same way now, I just keep an extra mag in my left pocket. I also dry fire with that rig.
In hindsight, I think a 9mm +P+ would have been as effective, considering I had to go the full 3 rounds, and I would have been able to have the additional rounds. That is one reason I am going to be fighting for the sunset of the mag cap ban. www.awbansunset.com
I have never gotten in the debate of .45 vs 9mm because they are both adequate if properly used.
Another thing for you folks to take away from this experience. I always have my GF on my left because of the potential for using the pistol. The thing I never went over with Leslie was that if I draw, she should start running to a safe place.
So tell your wife, gf, sig other, whatever, when the gun comes out, run away from the fight and run for help\safety. Don't worry about me, RUN. That was something we never covered, and we should have. I cover that now.
FWIW: whenever I have a new acquaintance, we go over these things. For those that resist my CCW, I tell the story and show them my 'legal' file, and they warm up to the fact really well.
Intelligence is the ability to learn from experience, wisdom is the ability to learn from other peoples experience.
I appreciate the kind remarks.
Stay safe
Originally posted by Big_Al
quote:
I hate the fact that you lost your GF - but that's the way some females are brainwashed into thinking. You're better off.
I really don't hold it against her, it was partially my fault for not discussing the possibilities better. Perhaps if she knew I was armed and why, it would not have been the shock to her that it was. Understand too, her being a nurse and required by law (with the threat of losing her license) to render aid to anyone that she encounters that needs it, she got a glimpse of it first hand, up close and personal. I had to force her away from the scene. She was just a floor nurse that occasionally dressed a wound, nothing like what she saw that night.
She was as sorry as I was, but she just couldn't deal with it and I don't understand it. I wish her all the best in life. Perhaps she had already planned to break up and after the incident she waited because she knew I needed her. I certainly don't blame her, she is a wonderful little lady and I am sure she is making someone a wonderful wife. Just not me. I do often wonder if her current guy carries a gun.
quote:
I wonder what would have happened if you couldn't afford an attorney? Would you have had to represent yourself, or would you have a lawyer appointed for you?
I would have had a public defender, which probably would have sufficed. My family may have had to help before I got a P defender. I didn't even question it, I got a lawyer to go make the statement, and I stayed with him. Again, my lawyer didn't think the assistant DA was really pushing for a conviction. There were things he saw that made him think so. Halfway through, during a recess, he pointed out a point he made that she should have objected to, but didn't. He knew her, and knew it wasn't like her to miss what she missed. I would almost swear she winked and smiled at me after it was over; not a come on, but in approval. But I am not sure what was going on in all that.
You would not believe what it is like to sit there and wait for the jury to file in, then to stand and listen to the verdict. OMG it is painful.
quote:
Another thing - and I know this is a pipe dream - but since you were found innocent, is there any way you could sue the state to recoup your monetary losses?
I could try, but I stood to lose even more. My lawyer advised me to be grateful with the verdict and move on. I did, because so far, HE WAS DA MAIN.
quote:
You stated you felt a strange feeling of "guilt" - was that temporary, or is that still with you?
Bad at first, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, threw up a bunch of times, then it got easier to handle. It got worse when Leslie decided to move on, because I didn't have that support, I was alone. When I am awake, it is not a big deal, just a bad memory. Had insomnia for several weeks and during the trial. It is the recurring dreams that cause me to wake up with odd feelings. I have developed what Cosmo Kramer called the "Jimmy Legs". I physically react to dreams now, which adds a sense of realism to the dream and I wake up with my heart racing. I don't remember ever doing that before
The thing is, they were both somewhat younger than I was, one of them was a nice looking kid and didn't have that mean look that we expect BG's to have. I often remember him as a nice looking young kid, instead of the monster and rapist he was.
quote:
so we'll know what to expect.
Nothing can prepare you for that. Every situation is different for every person. Some of our keyboard commando's would want to take pictures of the deceased and hang them on their walls as a trophy, maybe cut off an ear or something, some people may end up insane. I guess I fall somewhere in between; close to being insane.
Big AL-
There is really no telling what to expect after a situation. You may go home and sleep, or you may go to jail. Get the business card of a good lawyer from your range (if they don't have a referral lawyer, encourage them to find one and develop a relationship with him), keep it in your wallet next to your permit, or write the lawyers name and number on the back of your permit. Don't discuss it with the police. Tell them you want to speak to a lawyer, that should suffice. Every word you say will cost you money and heartache. The less you say, the less you have to repeat. Spending the night in jail is better than saying something that will haunt you in the future. IMO, the vast majority of Police officers will determine quickly that you acted properly and will not press you. My problem was from politicians.
CarryTexas:
I would like to add some things to your preps. Deprogram yourself from the brainwashing your parents did on you. Get the idea "I never want to have to kill another human being" out of your head. Those thugs aren't human. Ending a thug life is nothing like ending a human life, don't confuse the two. "Thou Shalt not Murder" is different from "Thou Shall not Kill". The logic of knowing that won't help much, but any little bit helps. .
My parents put that idea in my head, and I guess it is good for a teenager to hear, but when you are a law abiding adult, you don't want that program in your head.
When you shoot at the range, shoot at the people targets, not just circles and dots
I think I would want my wife well trained, but I want her to run in any event, unless she is boxed in. Of course she won't want to run, but it will be piece of mind for you. Who knows, seeing her take off may distract the BG's, or she can run 10 feet and then engage them, then they have two defenders. You may want to get an expert opinion, I am no expert, on that situation. But it may be like all opinion matters.
I just wanted her safe, that was all
I failed to mention, she was fresh out (7 months) of nursing school, and she worked the nicer hospital in town with the somewhat better clientele, she was young, and she had a lot of learning yet to do. That nursing school is renowned for pumping up their ego and making them arrogant (my niece went to the same school and she is mucho arrogant). I just don't think Leslie was thinking straight.
It was my fault for not properly covering the reasons I carried and what could happen and I think she was just reacting and not thinking. You just never expect to be a victim.
Thanks Jason, that was very kind of you to say, but the fact is: I was scared ****less and was backed against the wall. There was no chest blowing, not neat one liners, no heroism, no big bad daddy; nothing but pure unadulterated fear. For me to pretend otherwise would be a tremendous stretch. If we could have gotten out of it by running away, we would have, but I missed that opportunity.
Unfortunately I got caught with my pants down, and almost paid dearly for it. The proper action for me would have been to avoid it altogether.
If it happened again tomorrow, I would be just as scared.
Shoeless,
Leslie was not comfortable around guns, so I didn't push it; the ole approach of sweeping the subject under the carpet and hope it goes away, method of dispute resolution. My concern then was if it was discussed, she may 'convince' me (women do have a strange power over me) not to carry, so I just dropped the subject altogether. And it didn't matter because I continued to carry.
So she was just frozen in place when it all went down, she did squat after the fat hit the fire. I would have preferred knowing that she would run in a safe direction, she may have been hit by a stray round where she was, or I may have gone down. If I had gone down, at least my action may have given her a head start. With all that going on, I seriously doubt the thugs would have ran after her. If she ran in the opposite direction, then the van was pointed in the wrong direction to pursue. They probably would have gotten in the van and left. At least then if I went down, and she got away, my effort would not have been in vain. I could have told her to run, but I got the stage fright. It is hard to speak in that situation.
I can live with being shot, but I cannot live with myself knowing she was taken away from me and whatever was done to her. When thugs take her away from me, then they have victimized us both because I have to live with that part of it.
In your case, since your husband doesn't carry, you should use him as cover. Teach him to be still and you use him like a tree to shoot behind.
Seriously; it is a different story with you. You are not concerned about his safety like I was hers; they won't try to abduct him. I would think you should have some type of plan, and discuss what he will do in the event. Even if he takes 5 steps away from you and starts screaming, it could be a distraction to the thugs and it may give you an edge.
Your situation is a unique one. Perhaps you could discuss it with your chief instructor and find out what (s)he thinks. Or you and your husband brainstorm and see what you come up with.
I am really proud of the way I carry my spare mag now. Described in an earlier post. I really got lucky when I came up with it. When I wear jeans, I have 2 spare mags on my waist. For places that I cannot carry, I just wear my slacks (Savane style) with the mag pouch sewn into the pocket. I generally don't carry much in my pockets so I don't need the room. The butt plate sticks just above the pocket so it is easy to get out, but is not noticeable. Works really well.
quote:
Originally posted by Zundfolge
I have personally talked to 2 other guys who had to kill in self defense.
the thing they learned is that after its all over with, ....proud is not something they feel.
He says he always feels a pang of guilt when people congratulate him on his "kill".
Well said.
I often wonder how I would feel about it all if she and I were still together and possibly married. It would most certainly help if I could tap into her gratitude and know that I did what I had to do. At least to have her there to remind me and perhaps to soothe ill feelings. As it is, it all seems surreal.
quote:
Originally posted by mark123
The thing that jumped out at me was all shots were on target. I have got to get to the range more.
After the incident did your practice slow down a bit? or did you keep at it?
They were 5 feet away and closing. Not hard at that distance. Training increased as far as more classes. I was already going to the range at least 2 times a month. I had those records if they were needed, they were not. I would recommend keeping a spreadsheet detailing days you went to the range, what gun you shot, distances you shot, and how many rounds. It also helps keep up with the number of rounds through your guns.
No civil action, I don't know why other than the record of the deceased and that the criminal trial wasn't until 14 months after the incident. In my state they have 12 months to file suit, or file intent to sue. I think they thought I was going to prison, or they thought that the criminal record of the deceased would work to my favor. It would be admissable in civil action.
quote:
Originally posted by rtr
What training did you have previous to this incident? What went through your head during the incident? Just pure fear. Was it all a blur? Or do you remember thinking "frontsight, press", and or other training mantra?
What happened after they were all down? Did you render aid and call 911, or runaway or what? I'm not sure I'd be able to render aid to someone I just shot.
Pure fear, that pumps the **** out of adrenaline. It speeds your senses up to where things seem to be moving slow; hard to describe. I got a headache from my heart racing so hard after it happened. It took a while to settle down.
I had 3 classes. CCW, CCW II, and the Tactical Pistol. It seemed to happen so slowly, but yet after it was done, it went quick. I did not think fronsite press, I just did it.
She moved to help, I grabbed her and drug her across the street (away from the van) and into the nearest open business. I didn't even consider helping them, and she just reacted.
All I remember thinking was: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
hggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
ggggggggg I may have even said it too. I kinda think I did.
Imagine those dreams you have where you are stricken with fear, but you are unable to react to a threat, that is how it felt, but I was able to react. I wish I could put it into words.
quote:
Originally posted by Jarhead_22
Questions, if you don't mind:
Do you remember seeing your sights?
Did you have any use of force experts at your trial?
Yes and Yes. The testimony from the investigating detectives worked better for me than any expert, because they were there in an officical capacity. But we had them anyway. When an investigating detective is asked if they thought the defendant acted properly, and the ADA didn't object, and the answer was "IMO, yes, definitely". That pretty much did it.
With regard to not looking at them after they are down, I forgot to mention, don't look at the autopsy photos either. Tell your lawyer that you do not want to see them and ask him to make the effort to shield you from them. When I saw them, my lawyer picked up on the reaction. He apologized and kept them out of my sight. Too late though.
FWIW:
I have taken several classes since, and never brought the subject up. If any of you were in a class with me, this subject would never even come up. Not something I wear on my sleeve.
quote:
Originally posted by ProGlock
Btw, if I had been on that jury, and you just said "he needed killin'", that would have been good enough reason for me!
Btw RR, what type bullets did you use? FMJ? Hollow point?
Thanks. I had 12 people similar to you on the jury.
Hollow points, nothing special. Now I use Hydra Shok.
quote:
Originally posted by rtr
I understand, however, I know I have learned a lot from this thread, and I know others could learn a lot from you too.
I have one more question, how did the media treat you and this case?
I was in a class with a jughead that was a blowhard and had a story he loved telling. It didn't sit too well with me, and I don't want to appear to be that way.
In most classes, the criteria and time frame is already planned and discussion of everybodies experiences would just prevent adequate coverage of the planned material. Imagine how many questions would be asked, and how long my experiences would take from the class. Then consider if someone else had an experience they wanted to share. It would just prevent the entire class from learning what they paid to learn, and it may even prove distracting to the instructors.
One of the few things I told the officers was that I requested "no publicity". It was after I was taken into custody. I remembered a discussion at the range about the media and gang retribution and that you could request "no publicity". It dawned on me in the back of the squadcar that I did not want this in the paper. The officer agreed and said it was not a problem.
I never got an answer as to how "no publicity" works. I have heard different things: one is that the police do not release your name to the media but they release details and that if you request "no publicity" and the paper print your name, the paper can be held liable. I also heard that if the police dept. request "no publicity" and the media does it (name names) anyway, the dept will withhold informtion in the future.
Again, I don't know exactly how it works, that was a point I never pursued. I had bigger fish to fry. Those are things I have heard since, I don't know how it works.
I was scared to death when I scoured the paper for the next few days, and was very relieved that it was not in it.
quote:
Originally posted by Jack Straight
Did your CCW training include the "color code" scheme? It seemed like you did it very well.
Keep the eyes and ears open everyone!
Yes it did. I was well aware of the color codes. I didn't think "now that makes orange" (I do now), but there was an escalation.
When you think about it, the color codes, as good as they are, basically represent good common sense and give a good way to express it.
FWIW. Now when with my g\f, whenever I approach an intersection or a train crossing, I scope it out and ask, "what is wrong with this picture" that gets her to thinking and looking. I will often get in the middle lane (a technical no-no) or in the right lane by a bus stop, to give her something to spot and answer. She will often call my attention to 'possibles' (that is what we call anything that gets a second look) before I get a chance to call them out, that has her thinking.
The result is that now when she is alone, she looks at every intersection from a defensive point of view. The practice with me, gets her into a habit that carries over when she is alone.
Yes, she carries.
quote:
Originally posted by 4TS&W
Do you know if any of the scumbags have tried to get retribution on her? She sounds ill-prepared to do much about it if they did.
No, not that I ever heard of, Thank God!!
But her just being a witness at the trial, instead of co-defendant, her address may not have been as accessible as mine.
quote:
Originally posted by GlockenHammer
Had BG#1 not shown a gun, you would not have been legally authorized to show/use deadly force. Having a bad feeling works great on the street, but not in court. This scenario concerns me greatly.
So, what advice would you give someone in a similar situation, but where BGs did not show weapons?
Even if BG1 did not have a gun, I would have been justified in drawing my sidearm and going to the low ready. As long as I did not point my gun at an individual, I would be free from prosecution. Low ready is a tactic that a lot of people tend to overlook, or make stupid excuses against using.
My advice would be just that: when you feel threatened and are not sure if they are armed, draw to low ready and shout them off, and keep shouting. If you shout enough for others around you to hear, they can attest to you sounding scared, thus you are justified in drawing.
Worst case scenario, you will be facing a "brandishing" charge in some stupid states, but that would be a misdeamenor, not a felony. Pointing it at someone unarmed is "Assault with a Deadly Weapon", a felony.
Drawing to the low ready is a legitimate tactic, and a good tactic. It allows you to get prepared to defend, to break off your counter attack, and allows the luxury of further assessing a situation without losing the edge while doing so. From the low ready you can move up on target PDQ, go back to holster when the threat subsides or is not a threat, or you can stay ready while you determine the severity of the threat. Low ready will also have an affect on an unsuspecting bad guy, possibly causing him to go elsewhere.
I would check local laws with regard to what "brandishing" is considered to be. In a legitimate situation, I can't see drawing to low ready, assessing a danger then returning to holster, being called brandishing; especially when you did not point the gun at anyone and circumstances warranted it. It is better than nothing.
I almost got carjacked 2 years ago by 2 apparently armed BG's (they were favoring the 2 O'clock position on their waist), I drew to low ready, shouted them off, and they ran. I never saw their guns, but I saw where their hands were and how they were favoring that area. They were headed straight to me, and I saw their reflection in my rear van window as I shut the rear hatch. I turned, spotted their hands, drew to low ready and shouted them off, they ran off. I reported it so the police would have a description and to prevent them from just finding another victim. The police did nothing to me.
So keep low ready in your tool kit, it may just give you the edge you need. But ask an instructor at your range what his opinion on it is.
So I thought I would share this. Its certainly notmy story thankfull. But I think it goes to show why people carry firearms and more importantly why you should always be aware of your surroundings. No, things like this dont happen to everyone. But, they do happen, in some degree or antoher, everyday. The police do not have the responsibility to save you, their job is to apprehend the criminal after the crime.
Had this individual not been carrying, and not been aware of his surroundings it could have turned out very differently, and much worse.
Yes, its a long read, but I think its well worth it. It reminds you bad things sometimes happen to good people no matter how hard they try to keep it from happening. No one carries a gun to be a badass, or to boost their ego or make up for a small penis or whatever else. People carry firearms on themselves to defend their live and the lives of thier loved ones.
================================
A guy and his lady friend are walking down a street after eating a nice steak dinner on Friday night. The area is busy and the only parking available was a nice walk away, not a problem on a beautiful October night.
So the guy, who has had a lot of firearms courses notices a van slowly driving the other direction on the street. The guy notices the deep gurgling sound of the exhaust, but really doesn't think much of it. Then he notices a couple of thugs crossing the street; said GTer is uncomfortable because he and his lady friend seemed to get too much attention from the guys crossing the street. One of those "it just doesn't feel right" type of things.
So the couple continue walking toward the parking garage, when the GTer notices the gurgling sound of that van slowly passing by them. Then the GTer, who regularly uses windows to watch his 6, notices the two thugs that crossed the street coming up behind them. One of the thugs is clearly holding his right hand suspiciously around his belt buckle area. Then said GTer notices the van stopped on the side of the street just ahead and the 2 thugs behind them are getting closer.
GTer tells his lady friend that they are going to duck into any open business they see, but there were not any available. Just as they were coming up on the van, 2 ****-eaters jump out of the van and block the sidewalk. Gter draws his Kimber .45, and moves to engage the thugs 5 feet behind them; the intention was to go to low ready and size up the situation. The two from the van did not appear to be armed and one behind them was already spotted as armed.
So GTer turns and starts to shout at the two thugs on foot when the armed one begins to pull a revolver (SW .38 special). GTer, had the jump because the thugs in the rear did not see him remove his pistol from his daytimer style carry (they had been where alcohol was sold, but he did not drink).
The GTer always, always, always shoots failure drill at the range and trains at least twice a month.
As the BG #1 pulls the pistol, the GTer puts two rounds COM and moves up and puts one in the eye area. There was absolutely no reaction to the chest shots in the BG. The second thug turns to his falling comrade and tries to get his pistol, as GTer puts 2 slugs in his COM and one in the side of the head, GTer didn't know he hit BG #2 with the first 2 rounds. The second thug didn't have time to get turned around to face GTer, and didn't go down from the two to the chest, so said GTer puts one is the side of his head. Both third shots, at 5 feet, were very messy. Luckily for GTer, the second thug did get his hands on the pistol (a fact that would greatly help him in the future). So after the two in the rear were neutralized, GTer turned to check on the two from the van who had started moving his way. When GTer turned to engage them, gun at low ready, they turned and ran to the van got in and the van sped off.
The thugs were linked to other rapes and 2 abductions of similar method, and had sheets as long as your arm. (funny how that wasn't admissable in court) The thugs from the van looked more pissed than scared, and GTer would encounter them later in life. Turns out they were members of the Gangsta Disciples. The Gangsta's don't take lightly to seeing their bro.s being shot down in the street.
The aftermath: Said GTer was charged with manslaughter (the jury was given other options too) and was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. Deliberations took less than 3 hours. Some of the city council PERSONS believed that failure drill represented too much force and GTer should have not made the last shot on the guys. Of course, if he had not made the third shots in the failure drill, the thugs would be alive today. So city council PERSON, pressures the DA and viola, the decision is made to charge him.
The cost to GTer to stay out of prison was $18,000+. That works out to be $3k per shot, or $9k per bad guy.
The situation doesn't often end as well in his dreams, as it did in real time, but he never can quite get it behind him. He carries a strange sense of guilt.
The girlfriend that GTer was trying to protect, broke up with him 3 weeks later. She just never could get over it and could not understand the violent nature of his counterattack. She dumped him, which broke his heart, but she was a very good witness for his defense, and for that he is eternally grateful.
The follow up encounters (turns out during a trial, it isn't hard to get the home address of the defendant) with the Gangsta Disciples were a little better; and no charges were placed in those instances.
Sorry if GTer wasn't armed with and AK, but then they would never have picked us to attack.
The morals of the story: Live with what happened, or with what may have happened- his girlfriend being abducted..... It is better to be tried by 12.... When the SHTF, you fall back on your training in automatic mode. So train well and often.
I didn't mean to hijack this thread, but greg brought it up. I started out telling it in third person because I really don't want to sound like I am proud of it or bragging and I don't mean to be. I did what I had to do and was vindicated.
Yes it did happen. October 1998. The whole thing exhausted a lot of my savings, and some credit card debt that has since been paid for. The PD Commander on the scene allowed me to go home that night and to come in the following week with a lawyer to make a statement. Everything was clear and obvious to them that night, some officers even commended me.
My initial intentions were to confront them while in the low ready, and hopefully shout them off. As I turned around, the guy had his hand on his gun and was pulling it. I am sure that if he had seen my gun sooner, he would have it pointed at me. And there is the possibility that he drew because he saw mine, but had he stuck his hands up or ran off, I would not have shot. That and their priors convinced the PD that I had acted properly. There were 3 witnesses approaching from behind the van ****-eaters that saw what the van did, and the whole thing. They told the police that night, I had to do it. When they blocked us in, I had no choice but to act.
I was handcuffed and locked in a patrol car for a while, where I puked up that fine steak I had just eaten. Odd feeling when it is over.
The DA prosecuted under political pressure. I did not spend any time in jail, because it was only after the political pressure did the DA decide to prosecute. I surrendered and had bail arranged before we went in. The PD were really nice to me, and they even indicated they thought I was getting a ****ty deal. The Assistant DA that handled the case did not seem to be too interested in getting a conviction. The investigating officers were better witnesses for me than the state. She (assistant DA) allowed my lawyer to seat my dream jury (some code words there) and she let him get some stuff out. At one time my attorney indicated that she wasn't pushing it because of the way she conducted herself.
Girlfriend: Leslie was a nurse and one of those "I could never hurt anyone" types; I am a nurse and we heal...blah blah blah. Another long story. She did not know I was armed that night, or most nights we were together. I found out early that she didn't warm up to guns, so I didn't push it. No huge loss, the timing is what hurt. With all else going on, the last thing I needed was her breaking up. It was not until the trial that I really knew what she would do on the stand. What she did on the stand was enough to settle it for me. I hold no grudges against her, never did. But I won't date another nurse.
As far as the terminal ballistics of the .45. In classes my failure drill from concealed holster generally run in the 1.5 to 2 second area. I doubt any handgun caliber will create adequate results in less than two seconds. I just opened up like I had trained to do. I was going with the 3rd shot, unless the guy was on the ground out of it. When I say there was no reaction to the first two rounds, I meant his head was still where I expected it to be. I never have planned to stop and fully asses the vital signs of an attacker. My plan has always been to do the failure drill if the pumpkin was there and it was. It all happens so fast, you wouldn't believe it.
Since I was innocent, I can still carry.
As for the follow up visits from the Gangstas, I prefer not to get into that right now. Very long ugly stories. On 2 possibly 3 (the 3rd I spotted them and called the police and kept riding around the parking lot, the police came and ran them off so I don't know what their intentions were or if they were there to visit me) different occasions there were young gentlemen waiting for me when I got off work, once was an attempt to kick in my front door while I was home. I highly recommend the Remington 870.
I moved after the initial incident, and the phone company messed up and my 'unlisted' number got listed. So I moved again. A Lt. with the gang squad said that after a while, the membership would turn over to the point they would forget about me. That officer was at my trial and alerted me to potential retribution. There were a Gangstas at my trial. Relatives of the deceased I guess. I currently live in another city with an unlisted number. It has been 4 years, so I hope the follow up visits will cease. Everyday when I step out to get in my vehicle, I stop and scan the parking lot real good. My experiences have served to give me an edge and to keep me on my toes, and to keep me awake at night. Better than the alternative.
If I may offer one piece of advice to anyone who will listen:
If you are ever involved in a shooting, resist all urges to look at the guy after he is down. Move out of the area, and don't ever look at them. You want to remember them as a threat, not as a corpse.
Thanks for letting me get if off my chest.
quote:
Originally posted by Hackit25
I am sure if I have to use my pistol in self defense it will be a good shoot. I am worried about where ill get money for the defense in court!
Just don't say a word after it happens. Tell the officers you will cooperate, but you are in no condition to make a statement. Every word you say will cost you money.
If you are in the right, and it was a good shoot, you won't have much of an attorney fee. Just for one to meet with you and go in to make a statement. Your range will probably know a good lawyer for this purpose.
I would be willing to be most pro gun lawyers will allow you to pay as you can.
My problems came from politics. Basically, a democrat council woman did not like the idea of me engaging her constituents. Other than that, the PD would not have recommended charges. I thought I was free and clear until an investigator called me and told me what was going on. He suggested I retain a lawyer and to give him, the officer, the lawyers name so we could arrange a time for me to come in and surrender myself. That made it a lot smoother.
Cooperate with the PD as much as possible. If it is obvious your shooting was just, they won't push you for any answers. In fact, they may even suggest that you not say anything without a lawyer present.
The officers on the beat sees what happens to victims and are usually glad when the intended victim gets the upper hand.
Member question:
?With all the "political pressure" and subtle words, do I pick up the hint that there were some racial issues that came into play that caused the political PERSON to feel the need to file charges??
Shooter reply:
White man defends against young black males. Black female council member with a mouth like Cynthia McKinney. White District attorney, in the south in a city with a predominately black population. Draw your own conclusions.
If I may add:
black officer handcuffed me, apologized for having to do it but it was procedure and he would face disciplinary action if he didn't;
the same black officer uncuffed me, told me it appeared to be a justified shoot and acknowledged I did what needed to be done, suggested I get an attorney and reminded me of my right to remain silent. Told me not to worry about the puke in the car, was very considerate and kind;
black and white detectives for follow up meetings, and to take my statement all had same mindset with regard to it being a justified shoot. It was the black detective that called and told me they would not recommend charges;
black Lt on gang unit gave me feedback and 'intel' about what to expect from the gang in the future and how to handle it. He also gave me his card, cell phone number and pager number if I ever needed his help.
So the problem for me was a politician.
In any situation, the DA is the ultimate decision maker to decide if charges are placed. Usually the DA is or was a politician and they cannot discount a return to politics at some time in the future. When the DA gets a lot of nasty attacks, it will influence his opinion. I don't know what made him decide to go through with it, but for some reason he did. Politics being the way they are, never doubt anything. Do what you have to do, make sure you are in the right, and be ready to support it. Luckily it is the jury that has the last say. In Membabwe, you have to consider who will be on your jury. hint hint.
I got the gun back after about a month. I had others so I was able to carry.
Good question about the reload, that is a situation that has bugged me since.
The daytimer carry has a stretchable strap for an extra mag. I usually put one in the strap and have another stacked beside it, floating free. When it is zipped, the mag stays secure. It was a dreadful situation after I fired 6 of 9. The daytimer was on the ground, not completely unzipped and it would have been a struggle to quickly reload. I often wonder if I would have had the presence of mind to ration the next 3 rounds, glad I didn't have to do it. Technically, the floating magazine could have fallen on the ground around my feet if I had totally unzipped the daytimer, but the I didn't take the time to do that. I have adjusted my carry method since. I still carry the 1911, with the 2 extra mags, I keep a mag in my left trouser pocket, and have a G19 or a P99 on my ankle, usually the P99. I use a handy stitch to create a pouch in my pocket that holds the mag vertical and high so I can get it quickly. In the slacks I wear, it works pretty well.
The daytimer carry does have that drawback, but we went to a restaurant where alcohol was sold (this point was never pursued by the DA) and without the daytimer, I would not have felt as comfortable carrying in a no carry zone. It was a trade off of smooth use vs. discrete in an area that is illegal to carry in. I still carry the same way now, I just keep an extra mag in my left pocket. I also dry fire with that rig.
In hindsight, I think a 9mm +P+ would have been as effective, considering I had to go the full 3 rounds, and I would have been able to have the additional rounds. That is one reason I am going to be fighting for the sunset of the mag cap ban. www.awbansunset.com
I have never gotten in the debate of .45 vs 9mm because they are both adequate if properly used.
Another thing for you folks to take away from this experience. I always have my GF on my left because of the potential for using the pistol. The thing I never went over with Leslie was that if I draw, she should start running to a safe place.
So tell your wife, gf, sig other, whatever, when the gun comes out, run away from the fight and run for help\safety. Don't worry about me, RUN. That was something we never covered, and we should have. I cover that now.
FWIW: whenever I have a new acquaintance, we go over these things. For those that resist my CCW, I tell the story and show them my 'legal' file, and they warm up to the fact really well.
Intelligence is the ability to learn from experience, wisdom is the ability to learn from other peoples experience.
I appreciate the kind remarks.
Stay safe
Originally posted by Big_Al
quote:
I hate the fact that you lost your GF - but that's the way some females are brainwashed into thinking. You're better off.
I really don't hold it against her, it was partially my fault for not discussing the possibilities better. Perhaps if she knew I was armed and why, it would not have been the shock to her that it was. Understand too, her being a nurse and required by law (with the threat of losing her license) to render aid to anyone that she encounters that needs it, she got a glimpse of it first hand, up close and personal. I had to force her away from the scene. She was just a floor nurse that occasionally dressed a wound, nothing like what she saw that night.
She was as sorry as I was, but she just couldn't deal with it and I don't understand it. I wish her all the best in life. Perhaps she had already planned to break up and after the incident she waited because she knew I needed her. I certainly don't blame her, she is a wonderful little lady and I am sure she is making someone a wonderful wife. Just not me. I do often wonder if her current guy carries a gun.
quote:
I wonder what would have happened if you couldn't afford an attorney? Would you have had to represent yourself, or would you have a lawyer appointed for you?
I would have had a public defender, which probably would have sufficed. My family may have had to help before I got a P defender. I didn't even question it, I got a lawyer to go make the statement, and I stayed with him. Again, my lawyer didn't think the assistant DA was really pushing for a conviction. There were things he saw that made him think so. Halfway through, during a recess, he pointed out a point he made that she should have objected to, but didn't. He knew her, and knew it wasn't like her to miss what she missed. I would almost swear she winked and smiled at me after it was over; not a come on, but in approval. But I am not sure what was going on in all that.
You would not believe what it is like to sit there and wait for the jury to file in, then to stand and listen to the verdict. OMG it is painful.
quote:
Another thing - and I know this is a pipe dream - but since you were found innocent, is there any way you could sue the state to recoup your monetary losses?
I could try, but I stood to lose even more. My lawyer advised me to be grateful with the verdict and move on. I did, because so far, HE WAS DA MAIN.
quote:
You stated you felt a strange feeling of "guilt" - was that temporary, or is that still with you?
Bad at first, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, threw up a bunch of times, then it got easier to handle. It got worse when Leslie decided to move on, because I didn't have that support, I was alone. When I am awake, it is not a big deal, just a bad memory. Had insomnia for several weeks and during the trial. It is the recurring dreams that cause me to wake up with odd feelings. I have developed what Cosmo Kramer called the "Jimmy Legs". I physically react to dreams now, which adds a sense of realism to the dream and I wake up with my heart racing. I don't remember ever doing that before
The thing is, they were both somewhat younger than I was, one of them was a nice looking kid and didn't have that mean look that we expect BG's to have. I often remember him as a nice looking young kid, instead of the monster and rapist he was.
quote:
so we'll know what to expect.
Nothing can prepare you for that. Every situation is different for every person. Some of our keyboard commando's would want to take pictures of the deceased and hang them on their walls as a trophy, maybe cut off an ear or something, some people may end up insane. I guess I fall somewhere in between; close to being insane.
Big AL-
There is really no telling what to expect after a situation. You may go home and sleep, or you may go to jail. Get the business card of a good lawyer from your range (if they don't have a referral lawyer, encourage them to find one and develop a relationship with him), keep it in your wallet next to your permit, or write the lawyers name and number on the back of your permit. Don't discuss it with the police. Tell them you want to speak to a lawyer, that should suffice. Every word you say will cost you money and heartache. The less you say, the less you have to repeat. Spending the night in jail is better than saying something that will haunt you in the future. IMO, the vast majority of Police officers will determine quickly that you acted properly and will not press you. My problem was from politicians.
CarryTexas:
I would like to add some things to your preps. Deprogram yourself from the brainwashing your parents did on you. Get the idea "I never want to have to kill another human being" out of your head. Those thugs aren't human. Ending a thug life is nothing like ending a human life, don't confuse the two. "Thou Shalt not Murder" is different from "Thou Shall not Kill". The logic of knowing that won't help much, but any little bit helps. .
My parents put that idea in my head, and I guess it is good for a teenager to hear, but when you are a law abiding adult, you don't want that program in your head.
When you shoot at the range, shoot at the people targets, not just circles and dots
I think I would want my wife well trained, but I want her to run in any event, unless she is boxed in. Of course she won't want to run, but it will be piece of mind for you. Who knows, seeing her take off may distract the BG's, or she can run 10 feet and then engage them, then they have two defenders. You may want to get an expert opinion, I am no expert, on that situation. But it may be like all opinion matters.
I just wanted her safe, that was all
I failed to mention, she was fresh out (7 months) of nursing school, and she worked the nicer hospital in town with the somewhat better clientele, she was young, and she had a lot of learning yet to do. That nursing school is renowned for pumping up their ego and making them arrogant (my niece went to the same school and she is mucho arrogant). I just don't think Leslie was thinking straight.
It was my fault for not properly covering the reasons I carried and what could happen and I think she was just reacting and not thinking. You just never expect to be a victim.
Thanks Jason, that was very kind of you to say, but the fact is: I was scared ****less and was backed against the wall. There was no chest blowing, not neat one liners, no heroism, no big bad daddy; nothing but pure unadulterated fear. For me to pretend otherwise would be a tremendous stretch. If we could have gotten out of it by running away, we would have, but I missed that opportunity.
Unfortunately I got caught with my pants down, and almost paid dearly for it. The proper action for me would have been to avoid it altogether.
If it happened again tomorrow, I would be just as scared.
Shoeless,
Leslie was not comfortable around guns, so I didn't push it; the ole approach of sweeping the subject under the carpet and hope it goes away, method of dispute resolution. My concern then was if it was discussed, she may 'convince' me (women do have a strange power over me) not to carry, so I just dropped the subject altogether. And it didn't matter because I continued to carry.
So she was just frozen in place when it all went down, she did squat after the fat hit the fire. I would have preferred knowing that she would run in a safe direction, she may have been hit by a stray round where she was, or I may have gone down. If I had gone down, at least my action may have given her a head start. With all that going on, I seriously doubt the thugs would have ran after her. If she ran in the opposite direction, then the van was pointed in the wrong direction to pursue. They probably would have gotten in the van and left. At least then if I went down, and she got away, my effort would not have been in vain. I could have told her to run, but I got the stage fright. It is hard to speak in that situation.
I can live with being shot, but I cannot live with myself knowing she was taken away from me and whatever was done to her. When thugs take her away from me, then they have victimized us both because I have to live with that part of it.
In your case, since your husband doesn't carry, you should use him as cover. Teach him to be still and you use him like a tree to shoot behind.
Seriously; it is a different story with you. You are not concerned about his safety like I was hers; they won't try to abduct him. I would think you should have some type of plan, and discuss what he will do in the event. Even if he takes 5 steps away from you and starts screaming, it could be a distraction to the thugs and it may give you an edge.
Your situation is a unique one. Perhaps you could discuss it with your chief instructor and find out what (s)he thinks. Or you and your husband brainstorm and see what you come up with.
I am really proud of the way I carry my spare mag now. Described in an earlier post. I really got lucky when I came up with it. When I wear jeans, I have 2 spare mags on my waist. For places that I cannot carry, I just wear my slacks (Savane style) with the mag pouch sewn into the pocket. I generally don't carry much in my pockets so I don't need the room. The butt plate sticks just above the pocket so it is easy to get out, but is not noticeable. Works really well.
quote:
Originally posted by Zundfolge
I have personally talked to 2 other guys who had to kill in self defense.
the thing they learned is that after its all over with, ....proud is not something they feel.
He says he always feels a pang of guilt when people congratulate him on his "kill".
Well said.
I often wonder how I would feel about it all if she and I were still together and possibly married. It would most certainly help if I could tap into her gratitude and know that I did what I had to do. At least to have her there to remind me and perhaps to soothe ill feelings. As it is, it all seems surreal.
quote:
Originally posted by mark123
The thing that jumped out at me was all shots were on target. I have got to get to the range more.
After the incident did your practice slow down a bit? or did you keep at it?
They were 5 feet away and closing. Not hard at that distance. Training increased as far as more classes. I was already going to the range at least 2 times a month. I had those records if they were needed, they were not. I would recommend keeping a spreadsheet detailing days you went to the range, what gun you shot, distances you shot, and how many rounds. It also helps keep up with the number of rounds through your guns.
No civil action, I don't know why other than the record of the deceased and that the criminal trial wasn't until 14 months after the incident. In my state they have 12 months to file suit, or file intent to sue. I think they thought I was going to prison, or they thought that the criminal record of the deceased would work to my favor. It would be admissable in civil action.
quote:
Originally posted by rtr
What training did you have previous to this incident? What went through your head during the incident? Just pure fear. Was it all a blur? Or do you remember thinking "frontsight, press", and or other training mantra?
What happened after they were all down? Did you render aid and call 911, or runaway or what? I'm not sure I'd be able to render aid to someone I just shot.
Pure fear, that pumps the **** out of adrenaline. It speeds your senses up to where things seem to be moving slow; hard to describe. I got a headache from my heart racing so hard after it happened. It took a while to settle down.
I had 3 classes. CCW, CCW II, and the Tactical Pistol. It seemed to happen so slowly, but yet after it was done, it went quick. I did not think fronsite press, I just did it.
She moved to help, I grabbed her and drug her across the street (away from the van) and into the nearest open business. I didn't even consider helping them, and she just reacted.
All I remember thinking was: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
hggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
ggggggggg I may have even said it too. I kinda think I did.
Imagine those dreams you have where you are stricken with fear, but you are unable to react to a threat, that is how it felt, but I was able to react. I wish I could put it into words.
quote:
Originally posted by Jarhead_22
Questions, if you don't mind:
Do you remember seeing your sights?
Did you have any use of force experts at your trial?
Yes and Yes. The testimony from the investigating detectives worked better for me than any expert, because they were there in an officical capacity. But we had them anyway. When an investigating detective is asked if they thought the defendant acted properly, and the ADA didn't object, and the answer was "IMO, yes, definitely". That pretty much did it.
With regard to not looking at them after they are down, I forgot to mention, don't look at the autopsy photos either. Tell your lawyer that you do not want to see them and ask him to make the effort to shield you from them. When I saw them, my lawyer picked up on the reaction. He apologized and kept them out of my sight. Too late though.
FWIW:
I have taken several classes since, and never brought the subject up. If any of you were in a class with me, this subject would never even come up. Not something I wear on my sleeve.
quote:
Originally posted by ProGlock
Btw, if I had been on that jury, and you just said "he needed killin'", that would have been good enough reason for me!
Btw RR, what type bullets did you use? FMJ? Hollow point?
Thanks. I had 12 people similar to you on the jury.
Hollow points, nothing special. Now I use Hydra Shok.
quote:
Originally posted by rtr
I understand, however, I know I have learned a lot from this thread, and I know others could learn a lot from you too.
I have one more question, how did the media treat you and this case?
I was in a class with a jughead that was a blowhard and had a story he loved telling. It didn't sit too well with me, and I don't want to appear to be that way.
In most classes, the criteria and time frame is already planned and discussion of everybodies experiences would just prevent adequate coverage of the planned material. Imagine how many questions would be asked, and how long my experiences would take from the class. Then consider if someone else had an experience they wanted to share. It would just prevent the entire class from learning what they paid to learn, and it may even prove distracting to the instructors.
One of the few things I told the officers was that I requested "no publicity". It was after I was taken into custody. I remembered a discussion at the range about the media and gang retribution and that you could request "no publicity". It dawned on me in the back of the squadcar that I did not want this in the paper. The officer agreed and said it was not a problem.
I never got an answer as to how "no publicity" works. I have heard different things: one is that the police do not release your name to the media but they release details and that if you request "no publicity" and the paper print your name, the paper can be held liable. I also heard that if the police dept. request "no publicity" and the media does it (name names) anyway, the dept will withhold informtion in the future.
Again, I don't know exactly how it works, that was a point I never pursued. I had bigger fish to fry. Those are things I have heard since, I don't know how it works.
I was scared to death when I scoured the paper for the next few days, and was very relieved that it was not in it.
quote:
Originally posted by Jack Straight
Did your CCW training include the "color code" scheme? It seemed like you did it very well.
Keep the eyes and ears open everyone!
Yes it did. I was well aware of the color codes. I didn't think "now that makes orange" (I do now), but there was an escalation.
When you think about it, the color codes, as good as they are, basically represent good common sense and give a good way to express it.
FWIW. Now when with my g\f, whenever I approach an intersection or a train crossing, I scope it out and ask, "what is wrong with this picture" that gets her to thinking and looking. I will often get in the middle lane (a technical no-no) or in the right lane by a bus stop, to give her something to spot and answer. She will often call my attention to 'possibles' (that is what we call anything that gets a second look) before I get a chance to call them out, that has her thinking.
The result is that now when she is alone, she looks at every intersection from a defensive point of view. The practice with me, gets her into a habit that carries over when she is alone.
Yes, she carries.
quote:
Originally posted by 4TS&W
Do you know if any of the scumbags have tried to get retribution on her? She sounds ill-prepared to do much about it if they did.
No, not that I ever heard of, Thank God!!
But her just being a witness at the trial, instead of co-defendant, her address may not have been as accessible as mine.
quote:
Originally posted by GlockenHammer
Had BG#1 not shown a gun, you would not have been legally authorized to show/use deadly force. Having a bad feeling works great on the street, but not in court. This scenario concerns me greatly.
So, what advice would you give someone in a similar situation, but where BGs did not show weapons?
Even if BG1 did not have a gun, I would have been justified in drawing my sidearm and going to the low ready. As long as I did not point my gun at an individual, I would be free from prosecution. Low ready is a tactic that a lot of people tend to overlook, or make stupid excuses against using.
My advice would be just that: when you feel threatened and are not sure if they are armed, draw to low ready and shout them off, and keep shouting. If you shout enough for others around you to hear, they can attest to you sounding scared, thus you are justified in drawing.
Worst case scenario, you will be facing a "brandishing" charge in some stupid states, but that would be a misdeamenor, not a felony. Pointing it at someone unarmed is "Assault with a Deadly Weapon", a felony.
Drawing to the low ready is a legitimate tactic, and a good tactic. It allows you to get prepared to defend, to break off your counter attack, and allows the luxury of further assessing a situation without losing the edge while doing so. From the low ready you can move up on target PDQ, go back to holster when the threat subsides or is not a threat, or you can stay ready while you determine the severity of the threat. Low ready will also have an affect on an unsuspecting bad guy, possibly causing him to go elsewhere.
I would check local laws with regard to what "brandishing" is considered to be. In a legitimate situation, I can't see drawing to low ready, assessing a danger then returning to holster, being called brandishing; especially when you did not point the gun at anyone and circumstances warranted it. It is better than nothing.
I almost got carjacked 2 years ago by 2 apparently armed BG's (they were favoring the 2 O'clock position on their waist), I drew to low ready, shouted them off, and they ran. I never saw their guns, but I saw where their hands were and how they were favoring that area. They were headed straight to me, and I saw their reflection in my rear van window as I shut the rear hatch. I turned, spotted their hands, drew to low ready and shouted them off, they ran off. I reported it so the police would have a description and to prevent them from just finding another victim. The police did nothing to me.
So keep low ready in your tool kit, it may just give you the edge you need. But ask an instructor at your range what his opinion on it is.
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