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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: UNESC0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: UNESC0
It was a joke. Of course fires are a totally different issue and I'd be a complete idiot to see the two as analagous - unfortunately, it seems that the prevalent attitude is that the reasoning behind gun concealment (which is a different than ownership altogether) is for protection against "the elite and the criminal".

Ok. So when the elites would like to oppress the "common man" they'll just take out their guns and fight back? If enough people are armed then the government can't abuse its power? I fail to see how carrying a gun around can protect someone from the evil "elite" class looking to oppress joe-blow america.
We outnumber them by some 300-to-1, fool. I would gladly wager large odds that the US military could not defeat the people of the United States today. After all, how are they doing in Iraq?

Thanks for calling me a fool. Nice, it's great to see an elite member picking on someone new - glad to engage you in a rational and impartial discourse about concealment and carrying of handguns. I also don't perscribe to the belief that a military coup would be a possibility within a liberalized democracy such as the United States. To even think that the government requires civilians to be armed in case the military begins oppressing its citizens borders on paranoia. Pitting a military which spends $500 BILLION dollars on advanced weapons evey year against a bunch of rifle-toting civilians reminds me of that 100 Samurai v. 100 Knight thread, hypothesis and conjecture not even worth considering.

And when a criminal attacks a person, what are their goals? Rape, murder, theft? I'd gladly hand over my wallet to a criminal rather than blow his head off; and that's assuming he dosen't have a gun either - in that case drawing your own weapon would guarantee someone dying instead of being out $50 and inconvenienced by cancelling credit cards. Only a psychopath or serial rapist kills and rapes without provocation or circumstance. It is true that someone of that mental state would rape your girlfriend or kill you but like SampSon and Remy XO said, that's less likely than being hit by lightning (even less in a different country, ie. Canada).
That you place no value on your property does not mean that others feel the same. You observe from a position of luxury. You can afford the sacrifice. Others may not be in a similar position. By denying them the right to protect their property, you oppress the poor who are least able to afford the loss.

Again, this is about protecting individual's property from robbery while not within their home. How could someone be out and about with items that they could not afford to sacrifice? Do you personally think there is no security in society for those who are living from paycheck to paycheck that they should spend thousands of dollars on arming themselves, ammunition, gun club fees, registration fees, practise costs that they are the "least able to afford" within society. Handguns and CC permits are not owned by the poor in society, its too expensive for someone living in poverty to own and operate a handgun for personal safety.

It just seems like having a gun on your person at all times goes far beyond normal and reasonable use for a weapon. This isn't about gun control or outlawing guns altogether - its about the need and likelihood of using a concealed weapon to prevent an otherwise inevitable occurrance.
Need and likelihood are irrelevant. It's unlikely that a person will ever need to use a can of mace, shall we outlaw those too? It is not the burden of the people to prove their innocence. Your argument just doesn't hold water.[/quote]

That is your opinion, which evidently stems from paranoia and a pessimistic view of modern society. It is not the "freedom" to own guns for protection which is under question here in this thread, but rather the benefits that carrying a weapon bring to an individual and society at large. The burden of proof falls not to the actions of individuals but rather to those of criminals. By brandishing a weapon can one seriously think the outcome will be more beneficial than without one? Death preferable to loss of property?

Are you one to see society as Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness or Life, liberty, and the pursuit of property? Sounds like the latter to me.[/quote]
Ah... you can always tell when someone has no argument. They get all pissy and emotional and turn it into petty insults. I really don't see how you can take your arguments seriously. A military coup not possible? Tell that to those of other countries who thought they had a democracy but a military coup occurred anyway. Are you paranoid when you buy insurance? Then personal insults and assumptions about property to hide your elitism? Truly sad.

Face it, you have no logical explanation as to why you want to disarm the common people, except that you hate and distrust them. The paranoia is yours. You must disarm those who pose no threat to you.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
people need to be given as much freedom as possible and held responsible when they abuse it
Bingo. :thumbsup:

Others of us though, in their paranoia, would hold people responsible and punish them for things they haven't done, but simply might do. The most ironic thing about these others is that they think they are enlightened and intelligent, when they are neither.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
I personally dont carry daily when I'm off duty. Perhaps I might in the future, but who knows. I certainly wish that my wife would.

For now, I'll keep practicing disarming. I actually dreamed about disarming for quite a while last week. Its fairly easy to do with a pistol. Its my automatic reaction to having a pistol pointed at me within arms reach.

But it sure sucks to be the person that decides to break into my home.
 

bradruth

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
13,479
2
81
Originally posted by: TallBill
I personally dont carry daily when I'm off duty. Perhaps I might in the future, but who knows. I certainly wish that my wife would.

For now, I'll keep practicing disarming. I actually dreamed about disarming for quite a while last week. Its fairly easy to do with a pistol. Its my automatic reaction to having a pistol pointed at me within arms reach.

But it sure sucks to be the person that decides to break into my home.

Do you have to get a CCW to carry off base?
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
Originally posted by: bradruth
Originally posted by: TallBill
I personally dont carry daily when I'm off duty. Perhaps I might in the future, but who knows. I certainly wish that my wife would.

For now, I'll keep practicing disarming. I actually dreamed about disarming for quite a while last week. Its fairly easy to do with a pistol. Its my automatic reaction to having a pistol pointed at me within arms reach.

But it sure sucks to be the person that decides to break into my home.

Do you have to get a CCW to carry off base?

Yes, but I dont have to take a class. I just have to pay the $100 fee.
 

bradruth

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
13,479
2
81
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: bradruth
Originally posted by: TallBill
I personally dont carry daily when I'm off duty. Perhaps I might in the future, but who knows. I certainly wish that my wife would.

For now, I'll keep practicing disarming. I actually dreamed about disarming for quite a while last week. Its fairly easy to do with a pistol. Its my automatic reaction to having a pistol pointed at me within arms reach.

But it sure sucks to be the person that decides to break into my home.

Do you have to get a CCW to carry off base?

Yes, but I dont have to take a class. I just have to pay the $100 fee.

Well, there ya go. There are very few places I go unarmed.
 

AlienCraft

Lifer
Nov 23, 2002
10,539
0
0
Originally posted by: bradruth

The effect on crime in the event of nationwide CCW is mere speculation and holds no actual credence.
actually, it's documented that in countries such as Switzerland, where every able bodied male is in the Armed Forces and keeps his weapon at home, there is very little violent , home crime.

That's not how things are done here. Burglaries are felonies and are appropriated the necessary resources based on that fact alone, be it business or home.

I agree that white collar crimes are substantial, but to argue that they're actually violent is inflammatory. I'd be all for walking down to corporate HQ and hooking up the CEO in front of everyone and hauling him to jail like everyone else.[/b] how is losing your life savings NOT violent. There is documented evidence that such a loss can cause Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome to the same degree that being Physically assualted can. simply because there are no physical marks doesn't mean there aren't wounds. such a mental assualt can shake someone's perception of 'reality" to the point that they might become unhinged. It borders on making terroristic threats to my way of thinking. And if That can be a felony assualt charge, then so should such plundering by 'white collar' criminals. BTW, just because they have white collars doesn't lessen the severity of what they have done.

I don't remember that...sorry.
To what do you refer?

Why wouldn't the upper class report that crime? The higher crime rates include property crimes such as theft, and since the upper class is filled with greedy capitalist pigs, surely they'd report any losses immediately.
What crime? You do remember the Energy traders cackling between themselves how they ripped off California?

Why wouldn't we take care of crime that happens in front of us? You're not suggesting we let that go, are you? Wouldn't it just be reverse discrimination to leave that crime in order to solely investigate the upper classes?
Again, you've missed the point I was making.... to wit: MOST police officers do not concern themselves with real investgative, preventive police work, but instead concentrate their time and effort in collecting the "low hanging fruit". Stuff that is guaranteed a conviction (can't make the DA have to really think, gotta make the brass look good)

I think you're a little confused about the code of silence. That applies for cops protecting cops, often against department policy or even the law.
That was precisely my point. The Code of silence PROTECTS lawbreakers that wear the badge and commit their own crimes. And those that protect them are just as guilty as the actual offender.

I don't know how much that effect really exists, but if that's truly the intent I imagine the officer's are ordered to park their cars outside. The main reason I'd see for it is that the cars would be taken care of MUCH better and thus wouldn't have to be replaced nearly as often.
LOL, OK, but seeing as how the dept is responsible for the care of said automobiles, and there are staff mechanics to do this work, that point is moot. It's not like any officer is wrenching his own car. In fact, I'll bet there are policies against such actions. Imagine the liability if a vehicle is involved in an accident and the officer, not a certified mechanic, has been doing repairs..... oy

I've never once beaten a suspect, nor have I ever seen a coworker do so. No good can come of it, but a lot of bad can.
But yet it still happens, in departments big and small, all across the nation, to young and old, to citizens of all colors. And statistically, some of them are innocent. And get a beating anyway.

You can look at it that way, or you can look at it as a disclaimer. People in general seem to think that once a person is arrested they're guilty. I can't imagine how many times I've heard someone suggest the death penalty for an arrested murder/kidnapping/rape suspect after they see a small article in the paper.
Well, my own recent experience with SFPD over a traffic incident belies your assertion. I was accused by another motorist of having hit and run his car. I had another matter with another jurisdiction pending, but since the sFPD cops had that on their computer on me, I was presumed to be guilty. So much so, the officers prohibited me from doing any photos of the plaintiff's car or even exchanging name address data. BTW, I didn't "run" anywhere. I went home. I called the cops on what I thought was a road rager.
The DA took it to trial. Right up until they (SFPD) couldn't produce any of the 1/2 dozen photos they took of my car of any of his.
The ADA read the transcript and then HEARD my 911 tape. His insurance company took photos, took my statement, AND NEVER CONTACTED ME AGAIN. The DA dismissed the case. Seems the guy was trying to do a little INSURANCE FRAUD. But still the SFPD violated their own regs about how to deal with a traffic case with no personal injury.
I was convicted by their own cops and the facts eventually played themselves out. Lucky for me. My insurance company dropped me, I lost a job over it and my roommmates thought it was time for me to move right then.
SOoooo, it sounds good, keeps people believing the system works, and sometimes it actually works out that way. But most of the time, it's lip service.
The minute the people stop believing the system works for them, you will be obliged to turn your guns on the people, by direction of the local government, in order "to keep the peace." Will you be able to arrest your friends and family and put them in concentration camps? Did you read that section of the Police officers Handbook? It's under the Domestic Terrorism section. We have the camps ready, are you ready to do the dirty work?
 

bradruth

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
13,479
2
81
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
actually, it's documented that in countries such as Switzerland, where every able bodied male is in the Armed Forces and keeps his weapon at home, there is very little violent , home crime.

How is losing your life savings NOT violent. There is documented evidence that such a loss can cause Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome to the same degree that being Physically assualted can. simply because there are no physical marks doesn't mean there aren't wounds. such a mental assualt can shake someone's perception of 'reality" to the point that they might become unhinged. It borders on making terroristic threats to my way of thinking. And if That can be a felony assualt charge, then so should such plundering by 'white collar' criminals. BTW, just because they have white collars doesn't lessen the severity of what they have done.

Again, you've missed the point I was making.... to wit: MOST police officers do not concern themselves with real investgative, preventive police work, but instead concentrate their time and effort in collecting the "low hanging fruit". Stuff that is guaranteed a conviction (can't make the DA have to really think, gotta make the brass look good)

That was precisely my point. The Code of silence PROTECTS lawbreakers that wear the badge and commit their own crimes. And those that protect them are just as guilty as the actual offender.

LOL, OK, but seeing as how the dept is responsible for the care of said automobiles, and there are staff mechanics to do this work, that point is moot. It's not like any officer is wrenching his own car. In fact, I'll bet there are policies against such actions. Imagine the liability if a vehicle is involved in an accident and the officer, not a certified mechanic, has been doing repairs..... oy

But yet it still happens, in departments big and small, all across the nation, to young and old, to citizens of all colors. And statistically, some of them are innocent. And get a beating anyway.

The minute the people stop believing the system works for them, you will be obliged to turn your guns on the people, by direction of the local government, in order "to keep the peace." Will you be able to arrest your friends and family and put them in concentration camps? Did you read that section of the Police officers Handbook? It's under the Domestic Terrorism section. We have the camps ready, are you ready to do the dirty work?

Yeah, but that's SWITZERLAND. You're completely disregarding the differences in culture.

I'm not saying that white collar crime is lesser. What I am saying is that inflammatory terms and rationale are unnecessary to simply say that white collar criminals deserve more punishment than they traditionally get.

Most police officers *can't* dedicate time to investigative and preventative police work because their job structure is formed in such a way that there simply isn't time available. Priority #1 for a street unit is to respond to calls within your assigned area. That alone takes up a substantial amount of time. You also leave your area on a routine basis to assist other officers on their calls. What little time you have left is often spent doing paperwork. If you're lucky you'll get some time to do some proactive work, but that comes way behind the aforementioned tasks. Oh, and most of the "boys" don't care what the brass looks like and their only concern with the DA is how many charges they'll drop because they don't have the balls to pursue them all.

You asserted that the code stems from a fear of breaking policy or making waves.

Uh...there are no staff mechanics in my dept. When our cars break down they go to the dealership where they were purchased and the dept. has to PAY to have them fixed.

You bash the media when they put forth this idea of the poor being criminals, but fully embrace their perception that the police routinely use excessive force? That's convenient.

Wow, you're really going to bring Holocaust-esque tactics into this? Amazing.
 

Toonces

Golden Member
Feb 5, 2000
1,690
0
76
Originally posted by: Vic

Ah... you can always tell when someone has no argument. They get all pissy and emotional and turn it into petty insults. I really don't see how you can take your arguments seriously. A military coup not possible? Tell that to those of other countries who thought they had a democracy but a military coup occurred anyway. Are you paranoid when you buy insurance? Then personal insults and assumptions about property to hide your elitism? Truly sad.

Face it, you have no logical explanation as to why you want to disarm the common people, except that you hate and distrust them. The paranoia is yours. You must disarm those who pose no threat to you.

You insulted me first... I simply pointed out your borderline paranoia-like statements about government conspiracies and the necessity to one day overthrow a tyrannical government. Good luck getting a consensus on what defines tyrannical in today's divided America.

I don't have much else to say really, you've avoided my argument through dismissive statements and provided inflammitory arguments based on speculative fantasy. This isn't Argentina, or Bolivia in the 1970's - the levels of civil society and social capital are too high (not to mention corporate influence) for any type of military coup to happen in contemporary America. Could it happen someday? Obviously yes, but is the best way to prevent it arming each and every citizen.. I say no, you say yes. So be it.

I don't want to disarm people, I never said that, the entire thread was concerning the need to carry a concealed firearm. Do I own a gun? Not yet, I am planning on purchasing a rifle in the future - but it will be for sport; not protection from the government.

Let's face it. Both of us are in a position of privilege and prosperity - we're expressing opinions on a computer hardware review site's message board... not a place where the "common people" as you put it are greatly represented. I don't distrust anyone, so much the opposite in fact that I don't believe I need a gun to defend myself from anyone in sociey - rich, poor, marginalized, or discriminated. I could care less about who owns a gun; that is not the point of this discussion.

I never argued to disarm anyone.. this is becoming redundant and I'm sure you'll go on to insult my character or opinions and beliefs once again so I'm done. I apologize if calling you paranoid was considered a personal insult, as it was not intended to be malicious. Take solace in your opinions about life, Vic - I hope that you're at least open to a fair and non-derogatory discussion in the future; it's always interesting to talk with those who have a fundamentally different view of the world. :)