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The real price of windows 10?

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Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
81
I bet you use an Android or Apple phone as well.
I use android, though unfortunately it might as well be a closed platform. An unfortunate truth is that short of dropping off the grid like Richard Stallman, we must all stomach a bit of intrusion to get through the world. I did see that Canonical has released cell phones so it is worth some research. There are also some GNU cell phones out there.

I'm proud to say I haven't purchased an Apple product in over five years, and that includes iTunes. I only buy music digitally if it is available as lossless in FLAC or WAV...otherwise I will order CDs.

We are all digital hypocrites to one degree or another. The best we can all do is try to take control in the areas where it is reasonable to do so and simply deal with the fact that to exist in society means making compromises in some places.
 

Denithor

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2004
6,300
23
81
My feeling is, there is no privacy or expectation of privacy today. We use Windows on our computers and typically Android or iOS on our phones & tablets. Microsoft, Google and Apple shamelessly harvest data on our personal habits and shopping needs and use it to feed us focused advertising. If I look at a gizmo on Amazon one day, the next day I'm seeing ads for the same thing in my browser margins.

We have traded privacy for convenience.
 

sweenish

Diamond Member
May 21, 2013
3,656
60
91
We are all digital hypocrites to one degree or another.
I would love to know where I am one. While dislike and continued use doesn't necessarily lend itself to hypocrisy, it's always taken to another level with anything involving MS.

Which is funny, because it's been shown that the Linux community is basically a headless chicken, but they get a pass because their intentions are obviously so pure.
 

sweenish

Diamond Member
May 21, 2013
3,656
60
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I think yours is the mob mentality. Only a few of us are actually speaking out skeptically. Most of you drank the kool-aid ages ago.
That's hilarious. Defending Windows 10 is the "mob?"

And then you go on to use terms like "only a few of us", "speaking out skeptically" and "drank the kool-aid." Are you trying to steel your own resolve, or are you really pretending that hating on MS is some niche thing that only the brave do anonymously online?

I've read most of this thread, and lot of the others here and elsewhere online. "Speaking out skeptically" doesn't begin to describe the amount of whining and moaning and overall stupidity on the matter. I saw someone complain about the Windows 10 start menu, how it didn't have this and that, when it does.

The telemetry "research" was bogus because they counted ALL outbound requests while the machine was being actively blocked, which failed to account for basic things like checking the time, wi-fi connectivity, or repeating failed attempts. But here's a big number to drive the FUD machine.

And all this coming from smartphone owners, which is very likely. Maybe they can get half a leg to stand on and say they use an iPhone. That's fine and dandy, as Apple makes a big deal about not spying on you. But what about that one free game you have? Or Facebook or that shopping app, or that one web site you like?

No outrage there, but MS decided to join the big data game to drive Windows features and focuses, and it's only now that we live in a spy state.

And it never helps that MS detractors still, to this day, type M$. Just, why? Oh no, the publicly traded corporation wants to make money. It was a little funny when typing on a PC was still a new thing, but it highlights the childish mentality of those people. And just so we're clear, it also applies to garbage like crApple and whatever else. And too many of these people (as it's usually gamers making a stink, no surprise there either) are all too hasty to jump on the "gaben" bandwagon and do nothing but praise Valve and pray for a full on Steam monopoly. Makes all kinds of sense.
 

Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
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I would love to know where I am one. While dislike and continued use doesn't necessarily lend itself to hypocrisy, it's always taken to another level with anything involving MS.

Which is funny, because it's been shown that the Linux community is basically a headless chicken, but they get a pass because their intentions are obviously so pure.
The hypocrisy exists at all levels, not just in regards to MS. We are talking about tech here, but virtually everyone carries some sort of ideal that they smooth themselves out over.

Arbitrary examples of stances some people take:

I hate MS but I keep using it because I like games.

I don't think the government has a right to tax me, but I'm going to keep paying taxes.

I won't talk on my phone while driving because its against the law, but I don't mind driving 5-10 MPH over the posted speed limit.

My point is that just because people compromise for self preservationist reasons, it doesn't wipe out the hypocrisy of taking a stand only when there is nothing to lose. Yes, even Linux users like myself are hypocrites because many of us trumpet the virtue of GNU yet use distributions like Arch, Ubuntu, and Mint which while are not fully GNU. I have no problem owning that distinction.

That said, here are some of the reasons why Linux gets a pass and not MS for doing similar things.

1. Linux is just a kernel, and what Ubuntu does with their distribution does not dictate what Arch does with theirs. Further, the non-hypocrite can use BLAG and have his/her OS preservative free. If Ubuntu decides to spy on its user, said user can go to a non-spying distro.

2. Linux code is peer-reviewed and transparent. Worried about a back door? At least you can feel better knowing hundreds of rapid Linux users are tearing things apart to insure it isn't there. There is no such transparency with MS.

3. A Linux user can have as much or as little control as they desire.

All that said, I am not against closed-source software nor am I anti-Microsoft. I respect their desire to protect their investment. This isn't that. I'm against forcing a user to do things they might not want to do like installing specific updates or providing feedback of any type to MS. Whether it transmits it or not, the idea that the system is logging any type of data that isn't related to a crash is BS. This count's toward Linux also. I'm against them using hardware as a way of indirectly forcing users toward the latest OS. Last, I resent the implication that users must be all treated the same and that the interface has to be designed for the least common denominator. IF MS would allow complete desktop replacements, every latest Windows release could be the greatest release up to that point.

Anyways, that some of the reasons why Linux gets a pass where MS doesn't. Yes it is hypocritical, but that is the whole point of this post. Consumers get to decide what is important to them. Hating on MS is part of that, for better or for worse.
 

sweenish

Diamond Member
May 21, 2013
3,656
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You can provide feedback to MS, and they do listen to it. I think they even pre-install the app for providing feedback.

Linux, as I've used it in this topic and how I always use it, refers to a distro in its entirety. I know it's "just" the kernel. I don't care.

Using hardware to "force" people to latest versions isn't some subversive thing. New hardware can usually run older stuff just fine, and newer hardware being required for newer software is just progress. Windows 10 shouldn't be coded to be able to run on a 386 just in case someone wanted to do that. This argument is likely based on that whole Skylake+ story that got blown out of proportion. These companies aren't bottomless money pits that can continue to release chip drivers for every version of Windows that has ever existed. It's even more marked for Linux distros. If they decide to invoke some instruction set that's only available on a newer processor to make the experience better, what's so evil about that?

Basically your reasons aren't reasons.
 
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Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
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You can provide feedback to MS, and they do listen to it. I think they even pre-install the app for providing feedback.

Linux, as I've used it in this topic and how I always use it, refers to a distro in its entirety. I know it's "just" the kernel. I don't care.

Using hardware to "force" people to latest versions isn't some subversive thing. New hardware can usually run older stuff just fine, and newer hardware being required for newer software is just progress. Windows 10 shouldn't be coded to be able to run on a 386 just in case someone wanted to do that. This argument is likely based on that whole Skylake+ story that got blown out of proportion. These companies aren't bottomless money pits that can continue to release chip drivers for every version of Windows that has ever existed. It's even more marked for Linux distros. If they decide to invoke some instruction set that's only available on a newer processor to make the experience better, what's so evil about that?

Basically your reasons aren't reasons.
I was responding to your comment about hypocrisy as well as comment about Linux being a headless community. I've dealt with both even if you choose to ignore my personal reasons why MS should be judged.

As to your definition of Linux, the distinction between Linux and the distributions that use it is as pronounced as the distinction between Global Warming and Global Climate Change. If that distinction is either unapparent to you or simply considered unimportant, then there is nothing you can add to the Linux conversation that would be taken seriously.

"Linux, as I've used it in this topic and how I always use it, refers to a distro in its entirety. I know it's "just" the kernel. I don't care."

That's ridiculous. Based on that statement, Android, Ubuntu, Debian, CentOS, Mint, and Blag are all the same thing because they share a common kernel. Are you telling me that Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows 10, and Windows Server 2012 are all the same thing because they all based on the same basic MS kernel (albeit difference evolutions of it)? No, I don't think you meant that just like I think you know the difference between the Linux kernel and distributions. With a varied audience, articulating an argument is often preceded by some sort of proof of authority through informed commentary. Comments like that tend to work in the opposite direction.

I respect your opinion as to Microsoft's intent. I disagree with where they are going with it, but that is my burden to carry. Whether you think I have "reasons" or not has no bearing on whether they have potency from the mind of a consumer. If I choose not to participate in whatever MS has planned in the future, then that does impact them.
 
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Rebel_L

Senior member
Nov 9, 2009
412
25
91
The hypocrisy exists at all levels, not just in regards to MS. We are talking about tech here, but virtually everyone carries some sort of ideal that they smooth themselves out over.

Arbitrary examples of stances some people take:

I hate MS but I keep using it because I like games.
Not hypocrisy unless you say no one should use MS and then use it yourself.

I don't think the government has a right to tax me, but I'm going to keep paying taxes.
Also not hypocrisy

I won't talk on my phone while driving because its against the law, but I don't mind driving 5-10 MPH over the posted speed limit.
This is hypocrisy, although if you don't text and drive because you believe its actually dangerous, and speed because you don't think that is dangerous then we are back to non hypocrisy.



The privacy and data collection issues are something that really needs to be dealt with by the legal system which seems so far behind the times when it comes to this sort of thing that its just ridiculous. I still don't understand why there seems to be no real move by governments to figure out what do with digital goods even though its been an obvious issue that's needed addressing for quite some time now with companies bullying their customers into what they want from them.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,793
825
126
That's hilarious. Defending Windows 10 is the "mob?"

And then you go on to use terms like "only a few of us", "speaking out skeptically" and "drank the kool-aid." Are you trying to steel your own resolve, or are you really pretending that hating on MS is some niche thing that only the brave do anonymously online?

I've read most of this thread, and lot of the others here and elsewhere online. "Speaking out skeptically" doesn't begin to describe the amount of whining and moaning and overall stupidity on the matter. I saw someone complain about the Windows 10 start menu, how it didn't have this and that, when it does.

The telemetry "research" was bogus because they counted ALL outbound requests while the machine was being actively blocked, which failed to account for basic things like checking the time, wi-fi connectivity, or repeating failed attempts. But here's a big number to drive the FUD machine.

And all this coming from smartphone owners, which is very likely. Maybe they can get half a leg to stand on and say they use an iPhone. That's fine and dandy, as Apple makes a big deal about not spying on you. But what about that one free game you have? Or Facebook or that shopping app, or that one web site you like?

No outrage there, but MS decided to join the big data game to drive Windows features and focuses, and it's only now that we live in a spy state.

And it never helps that MS detractors still, to this day, type M$. Just, why? Oh no, the publicly traded corporation wants to make money. It was a little funny when typing on a PC was still a new thing, but it highlights the childish mentality of those people. And just so we're clear, it also applies to garbage like crApple and whatever else. And too many of these people (as it's usually gamers making a stink, no surprise there either) are all too hasty to jump on the "gaben" bandwagon and do nothing but praise Valve and pray for a full on Steam monopoly. Makes all kinds of sense.
There is so much wrong with what you said in this, but I'll let you figure out what.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
462
126
We are not talking about Windows here, but Windows Store. A competitor to Steam, Origins and other distribution sites. Of course they deserve a cut for helping distribute software. And it appears they are also adding a service to make software work for 3 platforms with little work, which I assume is how they plan to make it more attractive than Steam and Origins. It's that last part that may be of worry to Origins and Steam.
Judging by this article, the Windows Store is a bit more than a competitor to Steam, Origins and other distribution sites, it has the ability to shut out its competitors with a mere update and apparently, also the intent.

There are three things mitigating against this happening. First, the anti-monopoly charges would be legion, especially in Europe. Second, Microsoft's insistence that games also run on mobile will either cripple them or force developers to spend a lot more money making multiple versions of every game while pretending they are one single version. And third, there are very strong forces within gaming like Steam/Valve which can mobilize a move to another platform. Many (perhaps most) people do not need a Windows PC in particular as their home computer, and most gaming takes place at home; ergo any heavy handed attempt to make Windows functionally equivalent to iOS will also drastically weaken Windows as a platform and empower platforms like Apple and SteamOS. And in turn, this strengthens the BYOD movement and empowers competitors to Microsoft's business software which is their PC bread and butter. So likely nothing happens except Microsoft has a store with a few very expensive exclusives and a bunch of indie filler.
 

quikah

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
3,454
317
126
There are three things mitigating against this happening. First, the anti-monopoly charges would be legion, especially in Europe.
Lets ignore the fact that removing win32 support would also kill 99% of Windows software. Yeah, I can totally see MS doing this...

Second, Microsoft's insistence that games also run on mobile will either cripple them or force developers to spend a lot more money making multiple versions of every game while pretending they are one single version.
UWP does not require mobile support. It is just an option. There are plenty of apps in the store now that don't work on mobile.
 

sweenish

Diamond Member
May 21, 2013
3,656
60
91
Second, Microsoft's insistence that games also run on mobile will either cripple them or force developers to spend a lot more money making multiple versions of every game while pretending they are one single version.
This is the kind of ignorance that makes these threads hard to take seriously. One source, multiple platforms has ALWAYS been the point of UWP.

While it's true that interfaces have to be created, or specifically in the case of PC gaming, more graphical options added, the amount of code re-writing is seriously minimized, as it will compile for all platforms. The entire point is not having to make multiple versions any more, just the interfaces.
 

TheRyuu

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2005
5,479
14
81
Is it free to sell games on Steam?
Valve gets ~30% of the profits (IIRC) but keep in mind that when you use Steam you're also getting the distribution taken care of for you (i.e. the massive amounts of bandwidth that they can serve) including future updates.

There are certain technical aspects holding back UWP games currently that have to do with the software stack and certain assurances that have to be made when using UWP. Basically it's just not well suited for games currently. I'm not saying this will always be the case but it is right now.

There's a very easy solution to all of this, just don't buy stuff (that's exclusively) from the Windows Store. They can't stop you from using Steam. The only thing they can do is have exclusive titles on the Windows Store which will enjoy having their sales hurt because of UWP.

I'm not sure how this thread got where it is (not sure what Linux has to do with W10 and UWP).
 

sweenish

Diamond Member
May 21, 2013
3,656
60
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I was responding to your comment about hypocrisy as well as comment about Linux being a headless community. I've dealt with both even if you choose to ignore my personal reasons why MS should be judged.
And I responded in kind.

Like I said, you're reasons are bad because they apply just as well to both parties. Or in the case of hardware upgrades being forced by software, a universal truth.

As to your definition of Linux, the distinction between Linux and the distributions that use it is as pronounced as the distinction between Global Warming and Global Climate Change. If that distinction is either unapparent to you or simply considered unimportant, then there is nothing you can add to the Linux conversation that would be taken seriously.

"Linux, as I've used it in this topic and how I always use it, refers to a distro in its entirety. I know it's "just" the kernel. I don't care."

That's ridiculous. Based on that statement, Android, Ubuntu, Debian, CentOS, Mint, and Blag are all the same thing because they share a common kernel. Are you telling me that Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows 10, and Windows Server 2012 are all the same thing because they all based on the same basic MS kernel (albeit difference evolutions of it)? No, I don't think you meant that just like I think you know the difference between the Linux kernel and distributions. With a varied audience, articulating an argument is often preceded by some sort of proof of authority through informed commentary. Comments like that tend to work in the opposite direction.
Comments like mine reflect the general view of Linux by the masses. When a regular user refers to Linux, they may call it something like Ubuntu Linux or Linux Mint or what have you, but they are all Linux. Unsurprisingly, because they all run the Linux kernel. It may not be technically correct, but hardly as wrong as you make it appear.

And yes, I refer to all versions of Windows as Windows, again, because they are. Your inability to recognize this fact is what's ridiculous to me. I get that distros are varied, and different versions of Windows sometimes require different methods when discussing fixes, but we're not exactly talking about that. I brought up how much of a mess Linux is. The fact you purposefully mention many very different OS's in an attempt to persuade me to do the whole stupid Linux/GNU thing just illustrates my point. As does the latest XKCD: http://xkcd.com/1654/

Linux is a crowning achievement of modularity, and an absolute mess for consumers because of it. Meanwhile Windows does get a new kernel (if only a tweaked one) and new DE changes every version, yet picking it up and using it has hardly changed since 95. Even 8, after getting past the start screen, was not that different.

But this nitty gritty distinction does absolutely nothing to take away from the main point. I still fail to see where I could possibly be a digital hypocrite. At no point do I say a thing, and do the opposite, nor do I hold other people to a certain viewpoint while not following it myself.

I have never said you weren't entitled to your opinion. I post like this on forums to get at people's reasoning, and to know how sound I find it to be. I've spoken with principled people that I disagreed with, but their reasons were good, and I like to think we both came away with a better understanding of the other's viewpoint. Your reasons thus far have not been good, or they have ignored the fact that MS and Linux are generally the same (MS takes feedback and applies it, Linux distros also drop old hardware [just much more slowly]). Again, in my opinion.

I respect your opinion as to Microsoft's intent. I disagree with where they are going with it, but that is my burden to carry. Whether you think I have "reasons" or not has no bearing on whether they have potency from the mind of a consumer. If I choose not to participate in whatever MS has planned in the future, then that does impact them.
I never said you didn't have reasons. I said they were wrong. And I explained why. You would say a thing about Linux, ignore the fact that MS also does it, or say something negative about MS while ignoring that Linux also does it to an extent. With that said, I do understand the lack of trust. But with the new CEO, people still expecting the old MS just seem to be arguing with old information.

I'm also glad someone else pointed out how poor your examples of hypocrisy were.

As shown above by werepossum's ignorance as to what the UWP is capable of, these threads are hard to take seriously. You are more knowledgeable, but I also think you're just letting a lot of old MS bias get in the way. You're making too many assumptions and allowing those to drive your discussion.

As a note, when I call someone ignorant, I'm not calling them stupid. People can't know everything. If I think you're stupid, you'll know. But these threads keep popping up because of the ignorant, stupid, anti-MS mentality that so many Windows users hypocritically carry. This level of ignorance, disdain, and continued usage does make for hypocrisy.

tl;dr: I'm not necessarily trying to change your mind, I just think you're reasoning is flawed. You are free to disagree. I like Windows just fine, have never understood the hate even though GFWL has burned me a bit. People with raging MS hate issues should just stop using it, they're not being forced.
 
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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,840
280
126
And I responded in kind.

Like I said, you're reasons are bad because they apply just as well to both parties. Or in the case of hardware upgrades being forced by software, a universal truth.

Comments like mine reflect the general view of Linux by the masses. When a regular user refers to Linux, they may call it something like Ubuntu Linux or Linux Mint or what have you, but they are all Linux. Unsurprisingly, because they all run the Linux kernel. It may not be technically correct, but hardly as wrong as you make it appear.

And yes, I refer to all versions of Windows as Windows, again, because they are. Your inability to recognize this fact is what's ridiculous to me. I get that distros are varied, and different versions of Windows sometimes require different methods when discussing fixes, but we're not exactly talking about that. I brought up how much of a mess Linux is. The fact you purposefully mention many very different OS's in an attempt to persuade me to do the whole stupid Linux/GNU thing just illustrates my point. As does the latest XKCD: http://xkcd.com/1654/

Linux is a crowning achievement of modularity, and an absolute mess for consumers because of it. Meanwhile Windows does get a new kernel (if only a tweaked one) and new DE changes every version, yet picking it up and using it has hardly changed since 95. Even 8, after getting past the start screen, was not that different.

But this nitty gritty distinction does absolutely nothing to take away from the main point. I still fail to see where I could possibly be a digital hypocrite. At no point do I say a thing, and do the opposite, nor do I hold other people to a certain viewpoint while not following it myself.

I have never said you weren't entitled to your opinion. I post like this on forums to get at people's reasoning, and to know how sound I find it to be. I've spoken with principled people that I disagreed with, but their reasons were good, and I like to think we both came away with a better understanding of the other's viewpoint. Your reasons thus far have not been good, or they have ignored the fact that MS and Linux are generally the same (MS takes feedback and applies it, Linux distros also drop old hardware [just much more slowly]). Again, in my opinion.

I never said you didn't have reasons. I said they were wrong. And I explained why. You would say a thing about Linux, ignore the fact that MS also does it, or say something negative about MS while ignoring that Linux also does it to an extent. With that said, I do understand the lack of trust. But with the new CEO, people still expecting the old MS just seem to be arguing with old information.

I'm also glad someone else pointed out how poor your examples of hypocrisy were.

As shown above by werepossum's ignorance as to what the UWP is capable of, these threads are hard to take seriously. You are more knowledgeable, but I also think you're just letting a lot of old MS bias get in the way. You're making too many assumptions and allowing those to drive your discussion.

As a note, when I call someone ignorant, I'm not calling them stupid. People can't know everything. If I think you're stupid, you'll know. But these threads keep popping up because of the ignorant, stupid, anti-MS mentality that so many Windows users hypocritically carry. This level of ignorance, disdain, and continued usage does make for hypocrisy.

tl;dr: I'm not necessarily trying to change your mind, I just think you're reasoning is flawed. You are free to disagree. I like Windows just fine, have never understood the hate even though GFWL has burned me a bit. People with raging MS hate issues should just stop using it, they're not being forced.
I agree with everything you said but I want to say something painfully obvious. This is the PC gaming forum. What OS gets the games you can play on PC? That's right...they are on Windows. Nobody is playing the Division on Linux or Mac OS X.

Now this is my opinion and I am not responding to you directly sweenish. It's just a general statement. When you say "down with Windows, down with Microsoft" you are asking for PC gaming to effectively crash entirely. You think that if Windows for consumer home PCs just disappeared that magically you'll see every single game on Linux? You know that won't happen so stop kidding yourself. There would be a very long time before you'd get anything of note for your PC. I imagine quite a few hardware companies would stop making hardware for PC platforms and most developers would just say "screw it, lets make our games for PS4 and Xbox One then". It's my firm belief that without Windows, there really is no PC Gaming.
 
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