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The real price of windows 10?

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bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
106
I know I've been pretty negative on these boards in regards to MS and UWP, but one aspect I'm optimistic about is that this may open the door to improved mutual cooperation between major Linux developers. Love or hate Unity, recent Ubuntu builds have been pretty amazing in regards to hardware support and pushing 3D visuals to a new level. 16.04 LTS is on the eve of release. KDE Plasma 5 is extraordinary.

Up until now, the virtual of Windows for gaming has been MS's commitment to API and its otherwise lack of involvement in third party development. With UWP, MS is positioning itself to be more assertive and controlling. This may very well be the catalyst we need to get the Linux community to voluntarily agree to standardize certain key components of Linux, such as real API competitor to DirectX. OpenGL and OpenAL are great, but they are only two pieces of a larger pie.

I think PC gaming is about to go through a renaissance of sorts and I think MS is sadly mistaken over what their role will be in it.
Except that if dev's don't like UWP, they simply will just do things as they do it now. They setup a no lose situation here. If he dev's like UWP, they'll switch, but if they don't, they'll stick to doing it how they have always done it. Both options still result in Windows being on top.
 

WT

Diamond Member
Sep 21, 2000
4,818
58
91
Any chance I can just pay $125 and get Windows 10 without the telemetry and tracking baked in ? It's still Windows 10, and MS gets $$ up front, and I get an OS that does what I want it to, and doesn't annoy me with outbound traffic tattling on how many hours I play TF2 every month.
 

Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
81
Any chance I can just pay $125 and get Windows 10 without the telemetry and tracking baked in ? It's still Windows 10, and MS gets $$ up front, and I get an OS that does what I want it to, and doesn't annoy me with outbound traffic tattling on how many hours I play TF2 every month.
MS says no chance. They view you as the monetary equivalent of a Matrix battery, albeit a voluntary one.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,793
825
126
MS says no chance. They view you as the monetary equivalent of a Matrix battery, albeit a voluntary one.
Thus why I won't purchase it either..let alone upgrade to it. They can have DX12, I have lots of other options.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
3,508
1,884
136
Thus why I won't purchase it either..let alone upgrade to it. They can have DX12, I have lots of other options.
I wish Linux worked well for me :/ unfortunately the broadcom linux drivers for my fancy 802.11ac pci-e card are terrible, so if I try to download anything over like 30MB, the internet just stops working, and I can't figure out why. For that matter, the broadcom windows 10 drivers are terrible too and cause BSODs while downloading torrents unless I use an old version (documented problem, so it's not just me).

The other weird thing is that my PC has pretty loud coil whine while in Linux that doesn't exist while booted into Windows ... and also, I really like Lightroom.

It's getting close though, I prefer Mint 17.3 at this point besides these few hangups.
 
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Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
81
I wish Linux worked well for me :/ unfortunately the broadcom linux drivers for my fancy 802.11ac pci-e card are terrible, so if I try to download anything over like 30MB, the internet just stops working, and I can't figure out why. For that matter, the broadcom windows 10 drivers are terrible too and cause BSODs while downloading torrents unless I use an old version (documented problem, so it's not just me).

The other weird thing is that my PC has pretty loud coil whine while in Linux that doesn't exist while booted into Windows ... and also, I really like Lightroom.

It's getting close though, I prefer Mint 17.3 at this point besides these few hangups.
Drivers are the biggest sore spot for many Linux users. I love Mint also. I use Linux full time on my laptop. I have been going back and forth between Windows 10 and Linux on my desktop, mostly because of specific games. I have stopped purchasing games that aren't also available on Linux in the hopes that a complete switchover later this year won't hurt as much. I've discovered that dropping Windows completely is like breaking up with someone that you don't especially like but rely on for physical intimacy.

I use Lightroom also so that's another hurdle I need to get over.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,610
316
126
I wish red-hat based distros were more popular.
Bleh, why? Give me Debian based and apt-get and day over yum and Red Hat. I feel like Red Hat is the Linux for businesses and people who don't trust the idea of a free OS.

Linux can't even decide what format its packages should be distributed in.
There is a universal format- tar files!

In reality most consumer Linux is based in some form or another on Ubuntu, and its been at least 10 years since I couldn't find an Ubuntu repo for some software I really want to have.

At least the GNOME 3 fallout gave us Cinnamon.
Gnome has been a semi-disaster since at least 2004 when it forced its AMAZING file manager (Nautilus is by far my alltime favorite) into spatial mode by default. Ever since then they have shown a disdain for the users they have in hopes of appealing to users that won't touch a Linux distro to save their souls.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,173
1,985
126
I'm trying to decide if I have room within my cognitive budget to worry about this or not. I am currently preoccupied with headphone impedance. Once I sort that out, I might decide to worry about windows 10. Consider this a placeholder.
 

WT

Diamond Member
Sep 21, 2000
4,818
58
91
Thus why I won't purchase it either..let alone upgrade to it. They can have DX12, I have lots of other options.
We honestly don't have a choice. I fought this battle for YEARS, sticking with Win2k well into 2006 and ignoring all of the Win XP hoopla, even after it clearly was the better choice. And as expected, it was games that forced my hand, as I needed XP to play the newer DX10 releases.

Christ, I was one of the few guys playing Warcraft for DOS back when gaming in Windows was in its infancy. I struggled to free up that precious conventional RAM using QEMM to make it all work, and damned if I didn't learn more about the workings of my PC by doing it the hard way, with DIP switches and memory management.

Every step of the way, I as a gamer have been forced into an upgrade. DX12 is clearly the next step as a gamer, and I will just have to suck it up, be pissed about it, and deal with it. There ... is ... no ... choice ... here. At least I'm an old gamer, and my glory days are far behind me, and I don't game nearly as much as I used to. I still piss off guys in TF2 when I can. :sneaky:
 

sweenish

Diamond Member
May 21, 2013
3,656
60
91
Bleh, why? Give me Debian based and apt-get and day over yum and Red Hat. I feel like Red Hat is the Linux for businesses and people who don't trust the idea of a free OS.
rpm handling is a better command than dpkg in my opinion. I have little experience with yum, actually. The RHEL hosts I use at work are isolated. dnf is taking over, and I've only heard good things about it. Red Hat is just as rock solid a base as Debian is.

There is a universal format- tar files!
That's a cop-out. That's like saying zip files are universal for windows. I have very little experience with tarballs, but I don't think they can edit my bootloader configuration if I were to install a new kernel.

In reality most consumer Linux is based in some form or another on Ubuntu, and its been at least 10 years since I couldn't find an Ubuntu repo for some software I really want to have.
I'm aware of this, which is why I made my post. It's not as if I've had a hard time finding what I want in an rpm-oriented distro, so I don't know if that point stands.

Gnome has been a semi-disaster since at least 2004 when it forced its AMAZING file manager (Nautilus is by far my alltime favorite) into spatial mode by default. Ever since then they have shown a disdain for the users they have in hopes of appealing to users that won't touch a Linux distro to save their souls.
This we agree on.

I use Debian/Ubuntu based distros for my personal VM's just to ensure full compatibility with my college lab. But I really like Korora and OpenSuSe. I will eventually take the time to learn Arch. Apparently that's where you need to be to get most out of KDE Plasma 5.
 

Denithor

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2004
6,300
23
81
I've only ever used DOS or Windows on my personal PCs. I used Unix a very, very small amount back in college.

I'm guessing though, that the biggest issue with Linux for gaming is the API? As in, there isn't one (at all) or at best it doesn't come anywhere close to functioning at the same level as DX? And it looks like from the conversation here, Linux is just too fragmented (too many people developing in the direction they each believe it should go) for this to change anytime soon?

What about Vulkan? Is this a viable alternative to DX? Or is it just another layer that still needs DX to function? It looks like Vulkan has both Windows and Linux support, so perhaps that could form a unification point for a bunch of different Linux forks?

EDIT: But I suppose even if this is a fully fledged API alternative to DX, game devs would still have to put in the effort to make their game run on Linux/Vulkan? Meaning more effort, something they are notoriously against, as half the time they don't even port games over to Windows/DX properly.
 
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Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
81
I've only ever used DOS or Windows on my personal PCs. I used Unix a very, very small amount back in college.

I'm guessing though, that the biggest issue with Linux for gaming is the API? As in, there isn't one (at all) or at best it doesn't come anywhere close to functioning at the same level as DX? And it looks like from the conversation here, Linux is just too fragmented (too many people developing in the direction they each believe it should go) for this to change anytime soon?

What about Vulkan? Is this a viable alternative to DX? Or is it just another layer that still needs DX to function? It looks like Vulkan has both Windows and Linux support, so perhaps that could form a unification point for a bunch of different Linux forks?

EDIT: But I suppose even if this is a fully fledged API alternative to DX, game devs would still have to put in the effort to make their game run on Linux/Vulkan? Meaning more effort, something they are notoriously against, as half the time they don't even port games over to Windows/DX properly.
API and Drivers, though the API situation has improved greatly. In my opinion the biggest hurdle is driver optimization. Until Nvidia and ATI commit the same level of effort to Linux drivers that to give to Windows it won't be equal, but for many its close enough to make the jump.

People complain about developer bias between Nvidia and Ati in the Windows world, but in Linux it is even worse. Some games quite literally will run on only one or the other. I'm not saying Nvidia is better than AMD/ATI, but in general it is more well supported.

If you take a look at this review, you can see that Linux does in fact handle the latest games quite well. There are performance issues which are mostly driver related. It is still a step down compared to Windows so I still wouldn't jump if you are a power gamer. Casual gamers can easily make the transition I think as long as they are willing to put in the time to learn a new OS environment.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=xcom2-linux-review&num=1

I'm running Arch with Plasma 5 right now and the games I have played on Steam worked fine.
 
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futurefields

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2012
6,471
29
91
i got enough games already and been enjoying little indie games more than AAA recycled crap that doesn't work anyways microsoft will never get another dime from me
 

XavierMace

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2013
4,307
449
126
i got enough games already and been enjoying little indie games more than AAA recycled crap that doesn't work anyways microsoft will never get another dime from me
That's strange. I could have sworn you just mentioned you were looking forward to Forza on PC.
 

sweenish

Diamond Member
May 21, 2013
3,656
60
91
Got to go along with that mob mentality. After all, it's never been wrong.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
I think yours is the mob mentality. Only a few of us are actually speaking out skeptically. Most of you drank the kool-aid ages ago.
So stop talking. Take action. Remove Windows from your computer and install Linux. Or buy a Mac. Then you never have to deal with Microsoft again.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,793
825
126
So stop talking. Take action. Remove Windows from your computer and install Linux. Or buy a Mac. Then you never have to deal with Microsoft again.
Maybe, but for now 7 will suffice. I'm moving further away from Windows every day.
 

ZGR

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2012
1,866
284
126
Very slowly, I bet :D

I think many of us here have been fantasizing a Window-less world for quite a while... Which isn't happening. Every other year, Microsoft manages to pull me back....

Windows is now a pure entertainment OS for me. All my productivity is done on OS X and Linux. But Windows 10 has a lot of proprietary software which has made me realize that Microsoft will be the backbone of my entertainment for another decade at least.

I cannot state enough that moving away from Windows for work was an excellent decision. So much time has been saved.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,840
280
126
I use Windows 10 on my PC because of the fact that this is where the games go. I turn off all the telemetry stuff and tell Windows to never install drivers and it never has. Done. It's honestly the best consumer version of windows yet in terms of speed and memory management. All I use it for is Plex, games, and browsing the internet though. All my work happens on a Mac but it's not something I prefer for home use.
 
Aug 11, 2008
10,451
641
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This is simply a transition between paid OS to a "Free" OS. Rather than paying for an OS, which so many people today seem to think should be free, they are giving you the OS for free, but getting your money elsewhere. In this case, from sales through their Store. It might not seem like that is even costing you anything, as it is coming out of the distribution costs of the game, but ultimately that cost is passed on to us.

Having it more and more restrictive is likely a case of 3 things; 1) to allow the games to be interchangeable between 3 platforms and 2) to reduce malware and to 3) make a profit from their "Free" Windows release and updates.

Change is scary, as they/we don't really know what will happen in time, but apparently the masses have spoken. Microsoft is listening and giving us a "Free" OS, this is the compromise to such a change.
No, what is scary is one company controlling both the OS and the distribution of the apps (formerly known as programs and not required to be obtained through the windows store) themselves via the Windows Store.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,840
280
126
No, what is scary is one company controlling both the OS and the distribution of the apps (formerly known as programs and not required to be obtained through the windows store) themselves via the Windows Store.
I install games from Steam fine, firefox installs separate from the windows store, as do millions upon millions of programs available outside the windows store. Actually I haven't used the store for anything since I installed it.

Nobody running OS X complains about the App store either.
 

Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
81
Five to eight years ago Linux desktop was a hobby OS for many people. Today it is a serious alternative. Three to five years from now and I think it will be more than a concern for Microsoft. I'm definitely not against Microsoft doing what they feel is right for business, but I think user privacy is going to become a social battleground in the future and simply can't abide by a product that is designed to maximize financial gains at the expensive of the user.

Every user should have the ability to control all high level functionality of an OS and be able to install encryption to protect their data without fear of back doors. This mean that all communications between the OS and any outside entity should be opt-in and not opt-out.

I'm still at least half a hypocrite because I use both Windows 10 (for gaming) and Linux, but that will change soon enough.
 

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