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The real price of windows 10?

cbrunny

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2007
6,791
404
126
This terribly written article is extremely unclear about what the actual problem is. Does the author think that Windows is only going to let programs be installed via the Windows Store?
 

cbrunny

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2007
6,791
404
126
Microsoft has launched new PC Windows features exclusively in UWP, and is effectively telling developers you can use these Windows features only if you submit to the control of our locked-down UWP ecosystem. They’re curtailing users’ freedom to install full-featured PC software, and subverting the rights of developers and publishers to maintain a direct relationship with their customers.
What?

1. What features?
2. What is UWP?
3. What is "locked-down"?
4. What does any of this have to do with installing programs?
5. How does whatever UWP is have anything to do with rights of publishers?
6. Who is the customer here?
7. Do customers already have UWP?
8. Do customers want UWP?
9. What is the perception of current-state vs. future-state?
10. Why should anyone care about something so ambiguous?
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
What?

1. What features?
2. What is UWP?
3. What is "locked-down"?
4. What does any of this have to do with installing programs?
5. How does whatever UWP is have anything to do with rights of publishers?
6. Who is the customer here?
7. Do customers already have UWP?
8. Do customers want UWP?
9. What is the perception of current-state vs. future-state?
10. Why should anyone care about something so ambiguous?
First line?

With its new Universal Windows Platform (UWP)
I think he's over reacting a bit. He's probably upset of GoW and projecting it on the rest of the industry. He's overlooking one point... I don't care about his game. I also don't care to buy any UWP game so it won't be an issue in the future. There's too many great titles out there that won't develop exclusively for UWP. Unless Win10 prevents us from installing Win32 applications in general (i.e. the death of Win10), then it's a non-issue except for games from greedy developers who take the cash to develop exclusives.
 
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Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
UWP is a development platform that runs on all current versions of Windows (Mobile, 10, etc).

UWP is the only way to distribute software on the Windows Store.

UWP is exclusive to the Windows Store.

UWP restricts options to the consumer by disabling features or making modding difficult if not impossible. This is because with UWP every app runs in its own "sandbox" to assure compatibility (not really required for games only on the PC).
 

hrga225

Member
Jan 15, 2016
81
6
11
Explain it to me like I'm 4.
Ok.WDDM=Windows display driver model.It deeply integrated with windows OS.With WDDM2.0 MS added lots of useful features that help with development and running of games(and other thing too,but not to complicate it further).Now they try to wrap that all up to with UWP and tie it up to their store so they can call shots on pretty anything regarding gaming on Windows.Meaning commission,money.
Now I am not saying Sweeney wrote that article from kindness of his heart.
 

SlitheryDee

Lifer
Feb 2, 2005
17,252
18
81
I don't understand what he means. I have steam installed on windows 10 right now. there are games on it that I installed and play regularly, no side-loading necessary. Are they saying that if the same game were to appear on steam and in the windows store simultaneously, windows wouldn't let me install it from steam?
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
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I don't understand what he means. I have steam installed on windows 10 right now. there are games on it that I installed and play regularly, no side-loading necessary. Are they saying that if the same game were to appear on steam and in the windows store simultaneously, windows wouldn't let me install it from steam?
No, those games use the old Win32 development platform that we've used for a long time. The issue that he's over reacting about is that some games are coming to PC exclusive to Windows Store and are thus locked in to UWP since that's how it distributes software. It has nothing to do with anything but exclusives.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
I don't understand what he means. I have steam installed on windows 10 right now. there are games on it that I installed and play regularly, no side-loading necessary. Are they saying that if the same game were to appear on steam and in the windows store simultaneously, windows wouldn't let me install it from steam?
No, he's saying that if publishers/devs want their game to be sold through the Windows Store and take advantage of UWP (meaning making it available on Windows devices rather than just PCs) that they have to jump through some extra hoops to do. Namely they have to participate in additional revenue sharing with Microsoft and this "UWP format" cannot be distributed outside of the Microsoft store. Allegedly UWP currently restricts software's ability to control/enable certain settings like VSync/Crossfire/SLI as well (I'd wager this will be fixed in time). It's unclear, as far as I can tell, whether or not a developer can produce a "UWP version" and a "regular version" for sale through other channels.

He's also concerned that Microsoft will make new features available only to UWP apps which he thinks will harm non-UWP development. Personally I think this is a matter of perspective and somewhat unfair to Microsoft for [would would be] simply trying to make the service competitive/attractive - to me it's no different than Steamworks being an attractive service to handle user authentication/social activity/etc but being bound exclusively to Steam.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
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This is similar to Apple's .ipa files for iOS. Unlike .ipa, .uwp files are supposed to help bridge the gap between phone, tablet, and PC. Originally they were intended for "apps." Now MS is trying to shoehorn larger programs into them, which is why we see some strange limitations. A lot of users like access to the files of a program because they may want to modify the program or to manipulate their save files. .uwp can't be modified or even examined, only run. Perfect for Angry Birds on Windows Phone, not so much for 50GB video games.

I'd think they will be expanding the capability in the future.
 

quikah

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
3,454
317
126
No, but Valve is the only recipient. Microsoft gets nothing. Microsoft wants to change that.
So, (one of) the downside(s) of UWP is that the developer must share profit with MS when selling through the Windows store. This is SUPER bad. BUT, sharing profit with Valve when selling through their store is OK.
 

Rebel_L

Senior member
Nov 9, 2009
412
25
91
Sounds good to me, if MS can start getting a little piece of the pie from all the software that runs on their OS it will make it easier for them to switch over to their new OS scheme of updates not new versions. They would no longer have to charge money for the OS as its ongoing development can be funded by all the software everyone buys to run on the OS.
 

Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
0
Sounds good to me, if MS can start getting a little piece of the pie from all the software that runs on their OS it will make it easier for them to switch over to their new OS scheme of updates not new versions. They would no longer have to charge money for the OS as its ongoing development can be funded by all the software everyone buys to run on the OS.
Why should they get money from other developers. They are getting money from the OS, this has been fine for them for 30 years. Now they are getting greedy on the app store side of things. Screw that.
 

Rebel_L

Senior member
Nov 9, 2009
412
25
91
Why should they get money from other developers. They are getting money from the OS, this has been fine for them for 30 years. Now they are getting greedy on the app store side of things. Screw that.
Since the release of windows 10 its been sounding more and more like they are planning on moving away from charging for the OS. They would need to replace that income from somewhere, and a distribution tax sounds like a great way to go about it. Getting away from the large OS fees to small tax on all the software will likely help their image too as people will no longer feel so ripped off buying a copy of windows.

The move of the OS to cover smartphones also makes a tighter software control by MS a positive. Less confusion for consumers if there is a standardized way to identify where what software will run as most people have no idea what their hardware is or what it should be capable of and the old hardware requirements on boxes confused people other than enthusiasts anyways.
 

quikah

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
3,454
317
126
Why should they get money from other developers. They are getting money from the OS, this has been fine for them for 30 years. Now they are getting greedy on the app store side of things. Screw that.
Why should Valve/Origin/Apple/google/etc. get money from developers?

If a developer doesn't want to sell their wares in the Windows Store they don't have to.

Most of this is just ill will towards MS as a company with zero basis in fact.
 

Denithor

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2004
6,300
23
81
The only way I see this being a problem is:

1) Microsoft doesn't fix the glaring problems with UWP - currently including the vsync/sli/modding/etc stuff mentioned previously in this thread.

2) Microsoft insanely shoots themselves in the foot and somehow blocks Steam/GOG/etc game downloads and/or physical media from installing on W10. This move would likely spell the end of W10.

As long as they fix the obvious issues (and don't create any new ones) I don't see any problem with it.

And regarding the exclusives only available through UWP, that's their prerogative - it's their IP, they can choose what to do with it. I personally think they're insane to not put it up for sale on Steam also, but whatever, not my call. This is just their way of pulling some traffic into their store. Let's face it, they've done the same thing with Xbox exclusives for years now, many titles never got released anywhere else. You bought their hardware if you wanted to use their IP. This actually lowers the price of admission.
 

Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
21,146
398
126
Meh, MSs game catalog blows chunks anyway. I'm not gonna worry for a long time.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,793
825
126
He is not overreacting. MS will do what they can get away with. If no one raises red flags, it will happen exactly as he states. They want a monopoly. That is what the whole push to Win10 has always been, this is in no way a surprise. It was their way to force users into their way or the highway by dangling "free" and "dx12" in peoples faces.

Think of what their plans were with the Xbox 1 before all the internet chaos happened. Now they know to keep their mouth shut and just do it. If left unchecked I fully expect what he's suggesting will happen. If you want to be on UWP, you will be exclusive to console and/or UWP, and nothing else with all its locked down glory. I don't think they would go so far as to say a game can't be made for Win10, but they could certainly withhold certain aspects if you don't go exclusive. Personally they have a long ways to go before it would ever be worth the hassle and shortcomings.

If you want to understand why companies do what they do, just look at the thread with the person complaining about ticket prices that paid $600 a ticket for resell tickets. People are dumb and pay the money because they are impulsive and 'gotta have it'. So many people speak with their wallets (by paying whatever for whatever). Call it a difference of opinions or standards or what have you, but this is why if there is a concern looming it is best to get it out there before it becomes common place.

I for one have been very skeptical of MS's huge and somewhat devious push to get people to 10. Maybe it's nothing, but maybe it is indeed something. They aren't known for being consumer friendly. They are out to make money, just like everyone else. They see Apple calling the shots all these years and want that same freedom with their users, but it is a different market entirely. I'm not saying MS is evil, I'm saying MS wants money and does anything they can to get it...like most.
 
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bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
106
This is simply a transition between paid OS to a "Free" OS. Rather than paying for an OS, which so many people today seem to think should be free, they are giving you the OS for free, but getting your money elsewhere. In this case, from sales through their Store. It might not seem like that is even costing you anything, as it is coming out of the distribution costs of the game, but ultimately that cost is passed on to us.

Having it more and more restrictive is likely a case of 3 things; 1) to allow the games to be interchangeable between 3 platforms and 2) to reduce malware and to 3) make a profit from their "Free" Windows release and updates.

Change is scary, as they/we don't really know what will happen in time, but apparently the masses have spoken. Microsoft is listening and giving us a "Free" OS, this is the compromise to such a change.
 

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