The Pickens Plan

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Photovoltaics still need to mature a bit more before they're ready for prime-time, but concentrating solar with thermal storage (to produce energy at night as well) looks very promising. Cheap and clean, and the technology is available today. We just need to start building them.

If they are profitable then why isn't anyone building them?

Sure go ahead, watch who stops you.

The boogey man?

 

[ericlp]

Solar has come a long way and is ready for prime time now. The only thing that needs to mature is the government and a plan to exploit it.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Photovoltaics still need to mature a bit more before they're ready for prime-time, but concentrating solar with thermal storage (to produce energy at night as well) looks very promising. Cheap and clean, and the technology is available today. We just need to start building them.

If they are profitable then why isn't anyone building them?

Sure go ahead, watch who stops you.

Sure. Loan me a few billion?

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Photovoltaics still need to mature a bit more before they're ready for prime-time, but concentrating solar with thermal storage (to produce energy at night as well) looks very promising. Cheap and clean, and the technology is available today. We just need to start building them.

If they are profitable then why isn't anyone building them?

Photovoltaics (one form of solar) is very expensive now because of the huge demand. The demand comes from CA and AZ as well as Europe. There are a lot businesses that install photovoltaic systems in the US and they are all looking for more supply of cells.

Quite a lot of solar concentated plants are in the works and scheduled to be built. A huge number of permiting requests have been sent in, however the government (forget which admin) has recently put a mortorium on new application pending enviro studies/approvals.

Fern

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Photovoltaics still need to mature a bit more before they're ready for prime-time, but concentrating solar with thermal storage (to produce energy at night as well) looks very promising. Cheap and clean, and the technology is available today. We just need to start building them.

If they are profitable then why isn't anyone building them?

Photovoltaics (one form of solar) is very expensive now because of the huge demand. The demand comes from CA and AZ as well as Europe. There are a lot businesses that install photovoltaic systems in the US and they are all looking for more supply of cells.

Quite a lot of solar concentated plants are in the works and scheduled to be built. A huge number of permiting requests have been sent in, however the government (forget which admin) has recently put a mortorium on new application pending enviro studies/approvals.

Fern

Isn't that just federal land?

 

[Fern]

Yes, it looks like just federal lands.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Photovoltaics still need to mature a bit more before they're ready for prime-time, but concentrating solar with thermal storage (to produce energy at night as well) looks very promising. Cheap and clean, and the technology is available today. We just need to start building them.

If they are profitable then why isn't anyone building them?

Companies are. By 2012 at least a few gigawatts of CSP should be online in the southwestern United States. We need even more.

Also, I think the moratorium was lifted.

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Photovoltaics still need to mature a bit more before they're ready for prime-time, but concentrating solar with thermal storage (to produce energy at night as well) looks very promising. Cheap and clean, and the technology is available today. We just need to start building them.

If they are profitable then why isn't anyone building them?

Companies are. By 2012 at least a few gigawatts of CSP should be online in the southwestern United States. We need even more.

Also, I think the moratorium was lifted.

Link to the projects in question that will provide us with multiple gigawatts of solar power by 2012? Its not that I don't believe you, but thats only 4 years away which isn't much time for such large projects. They would have to be under construction, or at least really close already to be producing power in just 4 years.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Photovoltaics still need to mature a bit more before they're ready for prime-time, but concentrating solar with thermal storage (to produce energy at night as well) looks very promising. Cheap and clean, and the technology is available today. We just need to start building them.

If they are profitable then why isn't anyone building them?

Companies are. By 2012 at least a few gigawatts of CSP should be online in the southwestern United States. We need even more.

Also, I think the moratorium was lifted.

I am happy to stand corrected. Hopefully it will all start adding up.

 

[frostedflakes]

http://ecoworldly.com/2008/04/...ermal-energy-projects/

A handful of ~500MW plants are supposed to go online by 2012, with plans to scale some of them up to nearly 1GW.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A 4-stage+ compressor is needed to get the required PSI and this requires quite a bit of Electrical power(not to mention 480V 3ph for best efficiency)...or would take a very long time(115/230V) and be considerably less efficient.

Efficiency wouldn't be as much an issue if using wind to power the compressors to begin with (per the plan)!

So you can only "fill up" your car if the wind blew enough to compress enough? And it still lessens the net efficiency as you still are using that energy(wind) to compress the gas. So basically there is still a cost.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A 4-stage+ compressor is needed to get the required PSI and this requires quite a bit of Electrical power(not to mention 480V 3ph for best efficiency)...or would take a very long time(115/230V) and be considerably less efficient.

Efficiency wouldn't be as much an issue if using wind to power the compressors to begin with (per the plan)!

So you can only "fill up" your car if the wind blew enough to compress enough? And it still lessens the net efficiency as you still are using that energy(wind) to compress the gas. So basically there is still a cost.

It's still less an issue than burning a fuel to make the energy. Couple wind with solar, geothermal, more hydro, etc. and you have a far better system than we have now. At some point, you won't be able to "fill up" your car on oil anyway so we had better be looking at something else to fill it up with.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A 4-stage+ compressor is needed to get the required PSI and this requires quite a bit of Electrical power(not to mention 480V 3ph for best efficiency)...or would take a very long time(115/230V) and be considerably less efficient.

Efficiency wouldn't be as much an issue if using wind to power the compressors to begin with (per the plan)!

So you can only "fill up" your car if the wind blew enough to compress enough? And it still lessens the net efficiency as you still are using that energy(wind) to compress the gas. So basically there is still a cost.

It's still less an issue than burning a fuel to make the energy. Couple wind with solar, geothermal, more hydro, etc. and you have a far better system than we have now. At some point, you won't be able to "fill up" your car on oil anyway so we had better be looking at something else to fill it up with.

Yes, but my point is that you are taking an energy ladden fuel and expending more energy on it(no matter what the source) to make it usable as a transportation fuel.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

I don't know sh@t about T. Boone Pickens or any of the energy alternatives...but I'm ready and willing to try it! Finally somebody has a fvcking plan, so I really don't care if its a short-term band-aid or the end-all, long-term, make-sweet-love-to-Mother-Earth solution so many here seem to be holding out for.

Misguided or not, all I need to hear is no more billions for the Middle East. I'm up for anything that might take the rabid Arab Muslim mob burning flags off the news every night and put it right back in the pages of National Geographic where it belongs.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A 4-stage+ compressor is needed to get the required PSI and this requires quite a bit of Electrical power(not to mention 480V 3ph for best efficiency)...or would take a very long time(115/230V) and be considerably less efficient.

Efficiency wouldn't be as much an issue if using wind to power the compressors to begin with (per the plan)!

So you can only "fill up" your car if the wind blew enough to compress enough? And it still lessens the net efficiency as you still are using that energy(wind) to compress the gas. So basically there is still a cost.

It's still less an issue than burning a fuel to make the energy. Couple wind with solar, geothermal, more hydro, etc. and you have a far better system than we have now. At some point, you won't be able to "fill up" your car on oil anyway so we had better be looking at something else to fill it up with.

Yes, but my point is that you are taking an energy ladden fuel and expending more energy on it(no matter what the source) to make it usable as a transportation fuel.

Ah, I see what you are saying now. It's not about the wind power, it's about using the NG to begin with (right?). Well, all I can say is it could be a temporary "stop gap" while we develope other methods as well as a chance to remove ourselves from the ME oil tit.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Engineer
Ah, I see what you are saying now. It's not about the wind power, it's about using the NG to begin with (right?). Well, all I can say is it could be a temporary "stop gap" while we develope other methods as well as a chance to remove ourselves from the ME oil tit.

I think this will only change the ME oil tit we are attached too. We import CNG as well.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer
Ah, I see what you are saying now. It's not about the wind power, it's about using the NG to begin with (right?). Well, all I can say is it could be a temporary "stop gap" while we develope other methods as well as a chance to remove ourselves from the ME oil tit.

I think this will only change the ME oil tit we are attached too.

Good enough for me! Where do I sign up?

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer
Ah, I see what you are saying now. It's not about the wind power, it's about using the NG to begin with (right?). Well, all I can say is it could be a temporary "stop gap" while we develope other methods as well as a chance to remove ourselves from the ME oil tit.

I think this will only change the ME oil tit we are attached too. We import CNG as well.

That's what I thought (see above post somewhere). With that in mind, isn't there estimates that we have more CNG in the gulf than much of the rest of the world combined (IIRC)?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer
Ah, I see what you are saying now. It's not about the wind power, it's about using the NG to begin with (right?). Well, all I can say is it could be a temporary "stop gap" while we develope other methods as well as a chance to remove ourselves from the ME oil tit.

I think this will only change the ME oil tit we are attached too. We import CNG as well.

We pump it back down in the ground in Alaska since the libs(beholden to the fringe environuts) won't allow the pipeline to add a NG pipe. Pickens better have a plan to get that NG down here to the states unless he wants NG to increase in price too.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer
Ah, I see what you are saying now. It's not about the wind power, it's about using the NG to begin with (right?). Well, all I can say is it could be a temporary "stop gap" while we develope other methods as well as a chance to remove ourselves from the ME oil tit.

I think this will only change the ME oil tit we are attached too. We import CNG as well.

We pump it back down in the ground in Alaska since the libs(beholden to the fringe environuts) won't allow the pipeline to add a NG pipe. Pickens better have a plan to get that NG down here to the states unless he wants NG to increase in price too.

NG has doubled so far this year (well, starting around December of last year). Far outpacing crude.

NG chart.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A 4-stage+ compressor is needed to get the required PSI and this requires quite a bit of Electrical power(not to mention 480V 3ph for best efficiency)...or would take a very long time(115/230V) and be considerably less efficient.

Efficiency wouldn't be as much an issue if using wind to power the compressors to begin with (per the plan)!

So you can only "fill up" your car if the wind blew enough to compress enough? And it still lessens the net efficiency as you still are using that energy(wind) to compress the gas. So basically there is still a cost.

It's still less an issue than burning a fuel to make the energy. Couple wind with solar, geothermal, more hydro, etc. and you have a far better system than we have now. At some point, you won't be able to "fill up" your car on oil anyway so we had better be looking at something else to fill it up with.

Yes, but my point is that you are taking an energy ladden fuel and expending more energy on it(no matter what the source) to make it usable as a transportation fuel.

Ah, I see what you are saying now. It's not about the wind power, it's about using the NG to begin with (right?). Well, all I can say is it could be a temporary "stop gap" while we develope other methods as well as a chance to remove ourselves from the ME oil tit.

Yes to a point. I just want people to understand that it's not just plug it into your house line and think it's good. It'll take quite a bit of power to compress to those levels so you'll have to pay for the gas and also the electrical power to compress it. Even if you had fill stations, they'd be charging more due to the extra expended energy used to compress it.

IMO, using the electricity for a motor is the best option and is realistic at this point. Why the need to add other infrastucture just to preserve the outdated and inefficient ICE?

But I do like his wind and etc plan. I just think the NG portion will just shift the problem. However, if it actually happened, I'd be alright with it but would still rather have the effort put into solving the electrical storage issue.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Yes to a point. I just want people to understand that it's not just plug it into your house line and think it's good. It'll take quite a bit of power to compress to those levels so you'll have to pay for the gas and also the electrical power to compress it. Even if you had fill stations, they'd be charging more due to the extra expended energy used to compress it.

IMO, using the electricity for a motor is the best option and is realistic at this point. Why the need to add other infrastucture just to preserve the outdated and inefficient ICE?

But I do like his wind and etc plan. I just think the NG portion will just shift the problem. However, if it actually happened, I'd be alright with it but would still rather have the effort put into solving the electrical storage issue.

I could agree on that. If the batteries (energy storage) could be produced in enough quantities and "relatively" inexpensive, then why not? Anything other than ME oil for me!!!

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: Perknose
mindfart

is that a vote for methenol?

ps: saw a commercial for the zenn car today. costs a penny a mile to run &
selling in florida. (batteries last 3 years)
only goes 25 mph though with a 35-45 mile range. all electric.

Though they claim they are only a few years away from a 245m range and 85mph car.

 

[frostedflakes]

Barring any unforeseen obstacles, Zenn will release a car utilizing the EEStor capacitor in 2009. That's probably the 250mi range car they were talking about.

Supposed to cost <$30k as well. The Volt may be obsolete before it even comes out.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Barring any unforeseen obstacles, Zenn will release a car utilizing the EEStor capacitor in 2009. That's probably the 250mi range car they were talking about.

Supposed to cost <$30k as well. The Volt may be obsolete before it even comes out.

I'll believe that when I see it.