The Pickens Plan

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
21% of our energy from wind: Thumbs up
Natural gas as our transportation fuel: Thumbs down

I agree, unless they can come up with a good/efficient way of "pumping" NG into our tanks. Compressing NG means you loose some of the net efficiency.

Honda, and likely others, already sell vehicles that run on natural gas. There are also companies already that can perform the conversion (some specialize in GM etc).

Honda can provide a home pump that uses your existing natural gas lines.

I don't see NG vehicles as the "silver bullet" cure, but of several things I'd like to see explored ASAP.

IMO, just because we can't solve the problem in one blow doesn't mean we shouldn't start nicking away at it as much as possible now.

Likely some solutions are a better fit for some, others have different needs. E.g., I drive less than 10 miles a day, so I don't really need the long trip capabilities others do. From what I can tell, NG vehicles can go about +200 miles before a fill up is required.

Edit: Given how price sensitive oil seems to be, a rather minor reduction is demand could potentially have a pretty big price effect. With tax credits etc, moving a relatively minor percentage of our commuting population off oil/gas and onto NG and electricity could have a significant benefit.

Fern

Yes, I am very aware of CNG vehicles. I worked for a company that had a small fleet of them. The problem comes in with the compressor. A 4-stage+ compressor is needed to get the required PSI and this requires quite a bit of Electrical power(not to mention 480V 3ph for best efficiency)...or would take a very long time(115/230V) and be considerably less efficient.

But sure, it could have some positive effects but it has quite a few problems - namely infrastructure. The place I worked had a 30 mile radius they ran their trucks. Run out of fuel and you are screwed...

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
21% of our energy from wind: Thumbs up
Natural gas as our transportation fuel: Thumbs down

Exactly. We don't need to drive around on our own little suicide bombs.

For sure; let's stick with safe non-explosive gasoline.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Biofuels (not produced from food crops) or electric. The technology is basically there, about half a dozen commercial-scale cellulosic ethanol plants are currently being built in the US, and the technology will only get cheaper. If the EEStor supercapacitor lives up to expectations, it will revolutionize the EV market. Research is being done on producing biodiesel from algae, which have per acre yields orders of magnitude greater than traditional crops. I just think natural gas is a step backward.

Great. When all those things come online we will switch to them. In the meantime, Pickens idea uses technology that we already have . Not to mention that it is better for the environment then ethanol.

Except for the fact that our cars can't run on natural gas... between retooling our infrastructure for biofuels/electric or retooling for a different fossil fuel, the former makes much more sense.

And cellulosic ethanol is a technology that we already have. It costs like $2/gal (and is getting cheaper), and our cellulosic waste products alone (agricultural wastes, cardboard, paper, etc.) could take care of a good chunk of our transportation fuel needs. Switchgrass grown on land unsuitable for food crops could account for a significant portion (maybe all?) of our needs as well.

Conversion kits for your car are not all that difficult. It uses the same principals and engine as gasoline does. It just uses a different fuel delivery system. Honda actually has a home NG refueling device that is so safe it is classified as a home appliance (like a stove). Natural gas infrastructure is already in place across much of the US.

What other issues do you have with NG?

Like I said, I just think it's a step backwards. Would I consider converting my car to natural gas to escape high gas prices? Maybe, especially now that gas is creeping close to $5/gal. Do I want our national energy policy to focus on natural gas? No, we need to focus on renewables, not another fossil fuel.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A 4-stage+ compressor is needed to get the required PSI and this requires quite a bit of Electrical power(not to mention 480V 3ph for best efficiency)...or would take a very long time(115/230V) and be considerably less efficient.

Efficiency wouldn't be as much an issue if using wind to power the compressors to begin with (per the plan)!

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
21% of our energy from wind: Thumbs up
Natural gas as our transportation fuel: Thumbs down

Exactly. We don't need to drive around on our own little suicide bombs.

For sure; let's stick with safe non-explosive gasoline.

LOL, these guys would love the hyrdaulic hybrid idea with 3,000 psi hydraulic tanks on the bottom of the car! :Q

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Biofuels (not produced from food crops) or electric. The technology is basically there, about half a dozen commercial-scale cellulosic ethanol plants are currently being built in the US, and the technology will only get cheaper. If the EEStor supercapacitor lives up to expectations, it will revolutionize the EV market. Research is being done on producing biodiesel from algae, which have per acre yields orders of magnitude greater than traditional crops. I just think natural gas is a step backward.

Great. When all those things come online we will switch to them. In the meantime, Pickens idea uses technology that we already have . Not to mention that it is better for the environment then ethanol.

Except for the fact that our cars can't run on natural gas... between retooling our infrastructure for biofuels/electric or retooling for a different fossil fuel, the former makes much more sense.

And cellulosic ethanol is a technology that we already have. It costs like $2/gal (and is getting cheaper), and our cellulosic waste products alone (agricultural wastes, cardboard, paper, etc.) could take care of a good chunk of our transportation fuel needs. Switchgrass grown on land unsuitable for food crops could account for a significant portion (maybe all?) of our needs as well.

Conversion kits for your car are not all that difficult. It uses the same principals and engine as gasoline does. It just uses a different fuel delivery system. Honda actually has a home NG refueling device that is so safe it is classified as a home appliance (like a stove). Natural gas infrastructure is already in place across much of the US.

What other issues do you have with NG?

Like I said, I just think it's a step backwards. Would I consider converting my car to natural gas to escape high gas prices? Maybe, especially now that gas is creeping close to $5/gal. Do I want our national energy policy to focus on natural gas? No, we need to focus on renewables, not another fossil fuel.

Did you even watch the video?

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A 4-stage+ compressor is needed to get the required PSI and this requires quite a bit of Electrical power(not to mention 480V 3ph for best efficiency)...or would take a very long time(115/230V) and be considerably less efficient.

Efficiency wouldn't be as much an issue if using wind to power the compressors to begin with (per the plan)!

Or instead, how about we just use the electric energy directly to power our cars?

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A 4-stage+ compressor is needed to get the required PSI and this requires quite a bit of Electrical power(not to mention 480V 3ph for best efficiency)...or would take a very long time(115/230V) and be considerably less efficient.

Efficiency wouldn't be as much an issue if using wind to power the compressors to begin with (per the plan)!

Or instead, how about we just use the electric energy directly to power our cars?

The problem in that is the manufacturing, maintenance and disposal (or recycling) of the large amounts of batteries (or capacitors) required to do it. Not impossible but 100's of million cars needing batteries ....

well, time to invest in battery companies!

 

[EagleKeeper]

The whole intention is to start shifting the power sources.

If Natural renewables (solar/wind/wave/thermal) can take up some slack from NG, then NG can take up some slack from Oil.

That lessens the dependencies on oil and encourages the development of new technologies by buying time.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Except for the fact that our cars can't run on natural gas... between retooling our infrastructure for biofuels/electric or retooling for a different fossil fuel, the former makes much more sense.

And cellulosic ethanol is a technology that we already have. It costs like $2/gal (and is getting cheaper), and our cellulosic waste products alone (agricultural wastes, cardboard, paper, etc.) could take care of a good chunk of our transportation fuel needs. Switchgrass grown on land unsuitable for food crops could account for a significant portion (maybe all?) of our needs as well.

Conversion kits for your car are not all that difficult. It uses the same principals and engine as gasoline does. It just uses a different fuel delivery system. Honda actually has a home NG refueling device that is so safe it is classified as a home appliance (like a stove). Natural gas infrastructure is already in place across much of the US.

What other issues do you have with NG?

Like I said, I just think it's a step backwards. Would I consider converting my car to natural gas to escape high gas prices? Maybe, especially now that gas is creeping close to $5/gal. Do I want our national energy policy to focus on natural gas? No, we need to focus on renewables, not another fossil fuel.

Did you even watch the video?

I understand the point -- reducing dependence on foreign oil. I just don't think natural gas is the best way to do this, and I fear focusing on developing natural gas as a transportation fuel would hamper development of renewables.

Let's assume by his very optimistic estimation that in 10 years we've transitioned to 22% wind energy and allocated the natural gas saved to transportation. Are we really that much better off? We've reduced our dependence on foreign oil by a good chunk, but according to the video foreign oil would still account for 62% of our transportation fuel needs. What do we do now to reduce dependence on foreign oil, and also avoid the impending crisis of peak natural gas? We'd have to start researching biofuels and electric vehicles again. If we had spent those 10 years investing in biofuels and electrics instead of working on a band-aid solution, we would be much better off in 2018.

Also, he references a government study claiming that 20% of our energy could come from wind, and he mentions it'd take a decade to implement his plan. If he's talking about the same study I've heard of, it claims we wouldn't be able to offset this much energy from wind until 2030, so it'd take twice as long as he claims.

 

[Vic]

It's amazing to see the oil companies finally come around to what everyone else has been saying for 20 years.

I'll believe this and trust Mr. Swiftboat when I see it. In the meantime, the timing makes me smell a rat.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
The whole intention is to start shifting the power sources.

If Natural renewables (solar/wind/wave/thermal) can take up some slack from NG, then NG can take up some slack from Oil.

That lessens the dependencies on oil and encourages the development of new technologies by buying time.

The question is "Are we currently importing natural gas"? I thought that I had heard on CNBC a few years ago that we became a net importer of NG. If that's the case, I'm not sure it's much better than oil, in regards to imports.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Engineer
Not only that, he's putting his money where his mouth is.....unlike many others (including our own Congress).

Would be a big plus if the windmills are made here in the USA also. Those things are enormous (was riding a car and passed the turbine blades on three semi's a few years ago. Each "seemed" and may have been larger than a 747 wing).

That is not exactly true. He admits without government subsidy the wind farm he is building would not be financially possible.

Other than that, it seems like his idea may work.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
21% of our energy from wind: Thumbs up
Natural gas as our transportation fuel: Thumbs down

Exactly. We don't need to drive around on our own little suicide bombs.

I think the natural gas would need to be converted to a liquid fuel for this to work, otherwise you would need to convert a lot of cars to run of cng.

 

[Zorba]

Originally posted by: Vic
It's amazing to see the oil companies finally come around to what everyone else has been saying for 20 years.

I'll believe this and trust Mr. Swiftboat when I see it. In the meantime, the timing makes me smell a rat.

He has already ordered the wind turbines from GE, so I don't think he is completely FOS. Linky

 

[Zorba]

I am also almost 100% that the wind turbines Boone has bought are going to be built in the US.

 

[LegendKiller]

It's an interesting plan. One of the guys who used to work for my bank is helping run the program.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer
Not only that, he's putting his money where his mouth is.....unlike many others (including our own Congress).

That is not exactly true. He admits without government subsidy the wind farm he is building would not be financially possible.

There is NO plan with any meaningful impact on this national crisis that doesn't involve our government in one way or the other.

Only those who can put their ideology aside can admit this painful, but necessary truth.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer
Not only that, he's putting his money where his mouth is.....unlike many others (including our own Congress).

That is not exactly true. He admits without government subsidy the wind farm he is building would not be financially possible.

There is NO plan with any meaningful impact on this national crisis that doesn't involve our government in one way or the other.

Only those who can put their ideology aside can admit this painful, but necessary truth.

Actually no. The current oil crisis is being solved right now without government intervention. Markets are reacting to high prices and are using less of this resource. The energy problem will be solved with or without congress doing anything.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Darwin333
I searched but couldn't find a thread on T. Boone Pickens plan.

T. Boone Pickens is an 80 year old oil man who has made billions in oil. He seems to know the energy market quite well and has came up with a real plan to help us start getting out of this energy mess we got ourselves into.

Boone is just out for profit.

His buddies got kicked out of Venezuela so his residual check stopped coming in.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Darwin333
I searched but couldn't find a thread on T. Boone Pickens plan.

T. Boone Pickens is an 80 year old oil man who has made billions in oil. He seems to know the energy market quite well and has came up with a real plan to help us start getting out of this energy mess we got ourselves into.

Boone is just out for profit.

His buddies got kicked out of Venezuela so his residual check stopped coming in.

Once again I ask, whats your problem with people making money off of their investments?

People/companies are not going to invest tens of billions of dollars into a rather risky project like massive wind farms unless they believe they can make a profit. Hell, its the American way! He has an idea, putting his own ass on the line to support that idea, has a chance of failing and losing a ton of money, but also has a chance of succeeding and making some money.

The guy is actually putting his own money on the line to try and realize a goal of 20% of our electricity coming from wind and your still not happy. Unbelievable.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Darwin333
I searched but couldn't find a thread on T. Boone Pickens plan.

T. Boone Pickens is an 80 year old oil man who has made billions in oil. He seems to know the energy market quite well and has came up with a real plan to help us start getting out of this energy mess we got ourselves into.

Boone is just out for profit.

His buddies got kicked out of Venezuela so his residual check stopped coming in.

Once again I ask, whats your problem with people making money off of their investments?

He has an idea, putting his own ass on the line to support that idea, has a chance of failing and losing a ton of money, but also has a chance of succeeding and making some money.

The guy is actually putting his own money on the line to try and realize a goal of 20% of our electricity coming from wind and your still not happy. Unbelievable.

When it's not the best interest of the Country.

You don't know Boone. He is not risking a penny. The guy made more money than he can ever spend just like Bill Gates, Buffet etc.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Darwin333
I searched but couldn't find a thread on T. Boone Pickens plan.

T. Boone Pickens is an 80 year old oil man who has made billions in oil. He seems to know the energy market quite well and has came up with a real plan to help us start getting out of this energy mess we got ourselves into.

Boone is just out for profit.

His buddies got kicked out of Venezuela so his residual check stopped coming in.

Once again I ask, whats your problem with people making money off of their investments?

He has an idea, putting his own ass on the line to support that idea, has a chance of failing and losing a ton of money, but also has a chance of succeeding and making some money.

The guy is actually putting his own money on the line to try and realize a goal of 20% of our electricity coming from wind and your still not happy. Unbelievable.

When it's not the best interest of the Country.

You don't know Boone. He is not risking a penny. The guy made more money than he can ever spend just like Bill Gates, Buffet etc.

Let me guess, you do? :roll:

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
y. Unbelievable.

When it's not the best interest of the Country.

You don't know Boone. He is not risking a penny. The guy made more money than he can ever spend just like Bill Gates, Buffet etc.

[/quote]

While Boone may be a prick, I think it is a decent gesture, even if purely for profits.

And I don't agree with the interest of the country (alluded to above). I think renewable energy such as wind is absolutely in the best interest of the country. It does two things: Produces electricity locally and allows use our OUR own resources for other purposes including removing dependence from foreign oil; 2nd, it produces jobs for those making and installing the windmills as well as repair technicians for those same windmills.


IMO, it's a win for all of America.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Darwin333
I searched but couldn't find a thread on T. Boone Pickens plan.

T. Boone Pickens is an 80 year old oil man who has made billions in oil. He seems to know the energy market quite well and has came up with a real plan to help us start getting out of this energy mess we got ourselves into.

Boone is just out for profit.

His buddies got kicked out of Venezuela so his residual check stopped coming in.

Once again I ask, whats your problem with people making money off of their investments?

He has an idea, putting his own ass on the line to support that idea, has a chance of failing and losing a ton of money, but also has a chance of succeeding and making some money.

The guy is actually putting his own money on the line to try and realize a goal of 20% of our electricity coming from wind and your still not happy. Unbelievable.

When it's not the best interest of the Country.

You don't know Boone. He is not risking a penny. The guy made more money than he can ever spend just like Bill Gates, Buffet etc.

Wind power is not in the best interests of the country?

He has only invested/leveraged a few billion into the project so far, how is that not a risk?