The Pickens Plan

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Darwin333
I searched but couldn't find a thread on T. Boone Pickens plan.

T. Boone Pickens is an 80 year old oil man who has made billions in oil. He seems to know the energy market quite well and has came up with a real plan to help us start getting out of this energy mess we got ourselves into.

Boone is just out for profit.

His buddies got kicked out of Venezuela so his residual check stopped coming in.

Once again I ask, whats your problem with people making money off of their investments?

People/companies are not going to invest tens of billions of dollars into a rather risky project like massive wind farms unless they believe they can make a profit. Hell, its the American way! He has an idea, putting his own ass on the line to support that idea, has a chance of failing and losing a ton of money, but also has a chance of succeeding and making some money.

The guy is actually putting his own money on the line to try and realize a goal of 20% of our electricity coming from wind and your still not happy. Unbelievable.

What is your plan Dave? Seriously?

I think it's a realistic, workable plan, unfortunately we don't have a lot of time, and a temporary fix will work for now, until we can develop some better mass transit infrastructure and develop a better form of personal transportation for mass consumption.

The bottom line is that the world as we knew it (cheap energy) is over, likely forever, we need to start making some choices, now, not 10 years from now, hell not even a year from now.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
The bottom line is that the world as we knew it (cheap energy) is over, likely forever, we need to start making some choices, now, not 10 years from now, hell not even a year from now.

I agree that we need to start now. I don't agree that cheap energy is over. The sun provides over 10,000 times as much energy per day as we use not to mention it is responsible for the winds that would drive the windmills. Other than new infrastructure investment, the energy is there for the taking. Now whether those that bring the energy to market charge high rates for it, I can't say so it may indeed not be cheap to the end comsumer. Time will tell though.

 

[PingSpike]

I don't understand why when these discussions come up everyone craps on the idea because they think its not the perfect solution. And its not like he's going to flip a light switch and all gas stations and gasoline vehicles would detonate. It'd probably take decades for a partially switch to happen.

ALL of these ideas have some merit and there isn't any reason we can't pursue multiple ones at the same time or even have them all living in tandem around the country. Not everyone's car needs to run on CNG or electricity or biofuel or whatever your prefered idea is. But to shit all over each of them because they aren't your chosen fuel seems foolish.

Isn't the reason we got into this mess in the first place that our energy infrastructure is NOT diversified? If even a third of the country used CNG, another third used electric and the rest used good old gasoline the entire economy wouldn't start to swirl down the toilet bowl every time gas when up a buck.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
The bottom line is that the world as we knew it (cheap energy) is over, likely forever, we need to start making some choices, now, not 10 years from now, hell not even a year from now.

I agree that we need to start now. I don't agree that cheap energy is over. The sun provides over 10,000 times as much energy per day as we use not to mention it is responsible for the winds that would drive the windmills. Other than new infrastructure investment, the energy is there for the taking. Now whether those that bring the energy to market charge high rates for it, I can't say so it may indeed not be cheap to the end comsumer. Time will tell though.

I agree, solar is going to be big in a couple of decade. Right now it is too expensive to be practical(and does nothing for transportation), but costs for solar drops by 50% every decade. So if these price drops continue as they have done in the fast, solar will be mainstream in the near future.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
The bottom line is that the world as we knew it (cheap energy) is over, likely forever, we need to start making some choices, now, not 10 years from now, hell not even a year from now.

I agree that we need to start now. I don't agree that cheap energy is over. The sun provides over 10,000 times as much energy per day as we use not to mention it is responsible for the winds that would drive the windmills. Other than new infrastructure investment, the energy is there for the taking. Now whether those that bring the energy to market charge high rates for it, I can't say so it may indeed not be cheap to the end comsumer. Time will tell though.

I'm definitely on board with solar and alt energy, I've had a plan for a trombe wall home in the back of my mind for over a decade, now if I can just find a sugar momma to help me pay for it

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
The bottom line is that the world as we knew it (cheap energy) is over, likely forever, we need to start making some choices, now, not 10 years from now, hell not even a year from now.

I agree that we need to start now. I don't agree that cheap energy is over. The sun provides over 10,000 times as much energy per day as we use not to mention it is responsible for the winds that would drive the windmills. Other than new infrastructure investment, the energy is there for the taking. Now whether those that bring the energy to market charge high rates for it, I can't say so it may indeed not be cheap to the end comsumer. Time will tell though.

I agree, solar is going to be big in a couple of decade. Right now it is too expensive to be practical(and does nothing for transportation), but costs for solar drops by 50% every decade. So if these price drops continue as they have done in the fast, solar will be mainstream in the near future.

Solar films, which are far more efficient than solar panels and much easier to manufacture, seem to be a great direction for solar. Time will tell. I saw where GE bought one of the solar film companies a few month ago. To me, this is an indication that GE wants to be in on the ground floor of solar film as well as their belief to make money from the venture.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
The bottom line is that the world as we knew it (cheap energy) is over, likely forever, we need to start making some choices, now, not 10 years from now, hell not even a year from now.

I agree that we need to start now. I don't agree that cheap energy is over. The sun provides over 10,000 times as much energy per day as we use not to mention it is responsible for the winds that would drive the windmills. Other than new infrastructure investment, the energy is there for the taking. Now whether those that bring the energy to market charge high rates for it, I can't say so it may indeed not be cheap to the end comsumer. Time will tell though.

I agree, solar is going to be big in a couple of decade. Right now it is too expensive to be practical(and does nothing for transportation), but costs for solar drops by 50% every decade. So if these price drops continue as they have done in the fast, solar will be mainstream in the near future.

Solar films, which are far more efficient than solar panels and much easier to manufacture, seem to be a great direction for solar. Time will tell. I saw where GE bought one of the solar film companies a few month ago. To me, this is an indication that GE wants to be in on the ground floor of solar film as well as their belief to make money from the venture.

I dont think the films are more effecient in producing electricity, but I think they are far cheaper to produce.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: charrison
I dont think the films are more effecient in producing electricity, but I think they are far cheaper to produce.

You might be right but I saw somewhere where the carbon nanotubes used in the film were far more efficient, even converting light in the infrared spectrum to energy. They are much cheaper to manufacturer and roll off the assembly line like a "slow moving" newspaper printing line.


Don't forget solar paint either. It's estimated that 4,500 GW-hours could be produced (1/3rd of the current generating capacity of the entire world) by coating the steel in buildings with solar paint.

Click me!

Combine that with energy saving technology such as light emitting paint (an entire wall can light up a room using as little as one watt of power) and other saving technology and we can rid ourselves of traditional sources of energy in a few decades, IMO.

 

[MadRat]

Wind energy is not probably going to offer as much promise as oceanic tidal energy and geothermal energy in the long run.

But it is a good short term solution as Iowa is finding out.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Darwin333
I searched but couldn't find a thread on T. Boone Pickens plan.

T. Boone Pickens is an 80 year old oil man who has made billions in oil. He seems to know the energy market quite well and has came up with a real plan to help us start getting out of this energy mess we got ourselves into.

Boone is just out for profit.

His buddies got kicked out of Venezuela so his residual check stopped coming in.

Once again I ask, whats your problem with people making money off of their investments?

People/companies are not going to invest tens of billions of dollars into a rather risky project like massive wind farms unless they believe they can make a profit. Hell, its the American way! He has an idea, putting his own ass on the line to support that idea, has a chance of failing and losing a ton of money, but also has a chance of succeeding and making some money.

The guy is actually putting his own money on the line to try and realize a goal of 20% of our electricity coming from wind and your still not happy. Unbelievable.

What is your plan Dave? Seriously?

I think it's a realistic, workable plan, unfortunately we don't have a lot of time, and a temporary fix will work for now, until we can develop some better mass transit infrastructure and develop a better form of personal transportation for mass consumption.

The bottom line is that the world as we knew it (cheap energy) is over, likely forever, we need to start making some choices, now, not 10 years from now, hell not even a year from now.

My plan has always been 100% energy independence since 1973.

There is no reason to not have solar panels on top of every roof in America.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Darwin333
I searched but couldn't find a thread on T. Boone Pickens plan.

T. Boone Pickens is an 80 year old oil man who has made billions in oil. He seems to know the energy market quite well and has came up with a real plan to help us start getting out of this energy mess we got ourselves into.

Boone is just out for profit.

His buddies got kicked out of Venezuela so his residual check stopped coming in.

Once again I ask, whats your problem with people making money off of their investments?

People/companies are not going to invest tens of billions of dollars into a rather risky project like massive wind farms unless they believe they can make a profit. Hell, its the American way! He has an idea, putting his own ass on the line to support that idea, has a chance of failing and losing a ton of money, but also has a chance of succeeding and making some money.

The guy is actually putting his own money on the line to try and realize a goal of 20% of our electricity coming from wind and your still not happy. Unbelievable.

What is your plan Dave? Seriously?

I think it's a realistic, workable plan, unfortunately we don't have a lot of time, and a temporary fix will work for now, until we can develop some better mass transit infrastructure and develop a better form of personal transportation for mass consumption.

The bottom line is that the world as we knew it (cheap energy) is over, likely forever, we need to start making some choices, now, not 10 years from now, hell not even a year from now.

My plan has always been 100% energy independence since 1973.

There is no reason to not have solar panels on top of every roof in America.

Other than cost and solar does nothing for the transport industry.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
What is your plan Dave? Seriously?

I think it's a realistic, workable plan, unfortunately we don't have a lot of time, and a temporary fix will work for now, until we can develop some better mass transit infrastructure and develop a better form of personal transportation for mass consumption.

The bottom line is that the world as we knew it (cheap energy) is over, likely forever, we need to start making some choices, now, not 10 years from now, hell not even a year from now.

My plan has always been 100% energy independence since 1973.

There is no reason to not have solar panels on top of every roof in America.

Other than cost and solar does nothing for the transport industry.

You mean trucking?

It's dead anyway as there is no oil, remember there is a supply problem of oil according to many that believe that even as there is proof that there is no shortage.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: charrison

Other than cost and solar does nothing for the transport industry.

Isn't there a prototype plane in Sweden that has huge wings with solar panels installed that can fly 300 people without anything other than sunlight energy? Sure, it had a flight period between 10:00am and 4:00pm, but at least it's going in the right direction.

Also, airlines are investing heavily in algae grown fuel that will work with existing planes. They are at the point they have built scaled down planes/engines to try the fuel out to make sure that it works closely to our current jet fuel.

There's more developement going on right now (happily) since any point of time right after the 70's oil embargo. I'm happy to see it too!

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Darwin333
I searched but couldn't find a thread on T. Boone Pickens plan.

T. Boone Pickens is an 80 year old oil man who has made billions in oil. He seems to know the energy market quite well and has came up with a real plan to help us start getting out of this energy mess we got ourselves into.

Boone is just out for profit.

His buddies got kicked out of Venezuela so his residual check stopped coming in.

Once again I ask, whats your problem with people making money off of their investments?

People/companies are not going to invest tens of billions of dollars into a rather risky project like massive wind farms unless they believe they can make a profit. Hell, its the American way! He has an idea, putting his own ass on the line to support that idea, has a chance of failing and losing a ton of money, but also has a chance of succeeding and making some money.

The guy is actually putting his own money on the line to try and realize a goal of 20% of our electricity coming from wind and your still not happy. Unbelievable.

What is your plan Dave? Seriously?

I think it's a realistic, workable plan, unfortunately we don't have a lot of time, and a temporary fix will work for now, until we can develop some better mass transit infrastructure and develop a better form of personal transportation for mass consumption.

The bottom line is that the world as we knew it (cheap energy) is over, likely forever, we need to start making some choices, now, not 10 years from now, hell not even a year from now.

My plan has always been 100% energy independence since 1973.

There is no reason to not have solar panels on top of every roof in America.

Your plan? Way to make yourself sound more important than you are...

 

[StageLeft]

Better than what McCain and Ofvcka are currently touting, which isn't much (though McCain more than Ofvcka).

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: charrison

Other than cost and solar does nothing for the transport industry.

Isn't there a prototype plane in Sweden that has huge wings with solar panels installed that can fly 300 people without anything other than sunlight energy? Sure, it had a flight period between 10:00am and 4:00pm, but at least it's going in the right direction.

Also, airlines are investing heavily in algae grown fuel that will work with existing planes. They are at the point they have built scaled down planes/engines to try the fuel out to make sure that it works closely to our current jet fuel.

There's more developement going on right now (happily) since any point of time right after the 70's oil embargo. I'm happy to see it too!

The problem is solar panels do not produce enough electricity for transport, at least not yet. A tractor trailer rig is 45 feet long and 10 feet wide, yeilding 450 square feet of surface area. It takes 745 watts to produce 1 HP and current conversion rates there is just not enough power there to do anything meaningful.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
What is your plan Dave? Seriously?

I think it's a realistic, workable plan, unfortunately we don't have a lot of time, and a temporary fix will work for now, until we can develop some better mass transit infrastructure and develop a better form of personal transportation for mass consumption.

The bottom line is that the world as we knew it (cheap energy) is over, likely forever, we need to start making some choices, now, not 10 years from now, hell not even a year from now.

My plan has always been 100% energy independence since 1973.

There is no reason to not have solar panels on top of every roof in America.

Other than cost and solar does nothing for the transport industry.

You mean trucking?

It's dead anyway as there is no oil, remember there is a supply problem of oil according to many that believe that even as there is proof that there is no shortage.

There is only a shortage of cheap oil, there is not shortage of expensive oil.....

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: charrison

Other than cost and solar does nothing for the transport industry.

Isn't there a prototype plane in Sweden that has huge wings with solar panels installed that can fly 300 people without anything other than sunlight energy? Sure, it had a flight period between 10:00am and 4:00pm, but at least it's going in the right direction.

Also, airlines are investing heavily in algae grown fuel that will work with existing planes. They are at the point they have built scaled down planes/engines to try the fuel out to make sure that it works closely to our current jet fuel.

There's more developement going on right now (happily) since any point of time right after the 70's oil embargo. I'm happy to see it too!

The problem is solar panels do not produce enough electricity for transport, at least not yet. A tractor trailer rig is 45 feet long and 10 feet wide, yeilding 450 square feet of surface area. It takes 745 watts to produce 1 HP and current conversion rates there is just not enough power there to do anything meaningful.

You're thinking inside the box too much. Trains are electric with diesel generators that run them (similar to GM's Volt hybrid). Growing our electric infrastructure and then our railways, we could eliminate a large portion of truck shipping between long distances. Then, using biofuels or other developed fuels, you transport the products the shorter distance to the markets.

Even the development of the plane above to haul cargo during sunlight hours would help tremendously. Everything is on the table right now, because when you run out of fuel, it's too late to brainstorm then....

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: charrison

Other than cost and solar does nothing for the transport industry.

Isn't there a prototype plane in Sweden that has huge wings with solar panels installed that can fly 300 people without anything other than sunlight energy? Sure, it had a flight period between 10:00am and 4:00pm, but at least it's going in the right direction.

Also, airlines are investing heavily in algae grown fuel that will work with existing planes. They are at the point they have built scaled down planes/engines to try the fuel out to make sure that it works closely to our current jet fuel.

There's more developement going on right now (happily) since any point of time right after the 70's oil embargo. I'm happy to see it too!

The problem is solar panels do not produce enough electricity for transport, at least not yet. A tractor trailer rig is 45 feet long and 10 feet wide, yeilding 450 square feet of surface area. It takes 745 watts to produce 1 HP and current conversion rates there is just not enough power there to do anything meaningful.

You're thinking inside the box too much. Trains are electric with diesel generators that run them (similar to GM's Volt hybrid). Growing our electric infrastructure and then our railways, we could eliminate a large portion of truck shipping between long distances. Then, using biofuels or other developed fuels, you transport the products the shorter distance to the markets.

Even the development of the plane above to haul cargo during sunlight hours would help tremendously. Everything is on the table right now, because when you run out of fuel, it's too late to brainstorm then....

I dont disagree with what you say, but currently solar is just not cheap enough to justify its wide spead use. This will change over time.

I agree more cargo needs to get onto rail and that is happening as rail is a more efficient way to ship things. Electrification of our rail system would be a huge undertaking. It would be far easier and cheaper to produce syndiesel from coal to run the railroad. The railroads already carry the coal, so it would be easy for them to pick syndiesel why they are there.

We may be running out of cheap oil, but there are plenty of hydrocarbons left in the US to power our infrastructure till we convert to better alternatives.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
What is your plan Dave? Seriously?

I think it's a realistic, workable plan, unfortunately we don't have a lot of time, and a temporary fix will work for now, until we can develop some better mass transit infrastructure and develop a better form of personal transportation for mass consumption.

The bottom line is that the world as we knew it (cheap energy) is over, likely forever, we need to start making some choices, now, not 10 years from now, hell not even a year from now.

My plan has always been 100% energy independence since 1973.

There is no reason to not have solar panels on top of every roof in America.

Other than cost and solar does nothing for the transport industry.

You mean trucking?

It's dead anyway as there is no oil, remember there is a supply problem of oil according to many that believe that even as there is proof that there is no shortage.

CNG Garbage Trucks

UPS orders 500 hybrid CNG delivery trucks

CNG is ALREADY being used by local fleet vehicles and not only is it saving them money its cleaner. I guarantee if you put a CNG truckstop ever 50 miles along the interstates (infrastructure ALREADY in place in a lot of places) and it saves them money, they will be using it. Some conversion kits actually let you switch back to your gasoline tank. GM already makes something like 8 CNG cars they just don't sell them in the US.

The technology is already here. Right now. Today. Cleaner, cheaper and domestically produced.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: charrison


We may be running out of cheap oil, but there are plenty of hydrocarbons left in the US to power our infrastructure till we convert to better alternatives.

That's probably true. At some point in time though, it will need to be considered. Might not be in your/my lifetimes, but it will happen. Maybe by then, the transporter beam will be in full use!

By they way, I like the way this thread has started progressing. I'm in hopes (and think my hope is coming to life) that there are many others out there not only discussing this but actually working quickly to solve this, whether for profit or some other reason. Again, good discussion today!

P.S. Wasn't talking strictly about solar above. Was referring to other alternatives such as geothermal electric production, wind, hydro (more of it), ocean current, PLUS solar!

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
What is your plan Dave? Seriously?

I think it's a realistic, workable plan, unfortunately we don't have a lot of time, and a temporary fix will work for now, until we can develop some better mass transit infrastructure and develop a better form of personal transportation for mass consumption.

The bottom line is that the world as we knew it (cheap energy) is over, likely forever, we need to start making some choices, now, not 10 years from now, hell not even a year from now.

My plan has always been 100% energy independence since 1973.

There is no reason to not have solar panels on top of every roof in America.

Other than cost and solar does nothing for the transport industry.

You mean trucking?

It's dead anyway as there is no oil, remember there is a supply problem of oil according to many that believe that even as there is proof that there is no shortage.

CNG Garbage Trucks

UPS orders 500 hybrid CNG delivery trucks

CNG is ALREADY being used by local fleet vehicles and not only is it saving them money its cleaner. I guarantee if you put a CNG truckstop ever 50 miles along the interstates (infrastructure ALREADY in place in a lot of places) and it saves them money, they will be using it. Some conversion kits actually let you switch back to your gasoline tank. GM already makes something like 8 CNG cars they just don't sell them in the US.

The technology is already here. Right now. Today. Cleaner, cheaper and domestically produced.

But we dont even need to convert anything to run on CNG. We just need to convert the natural gas to gasoline.

And they should be purchasing hybrid garbage trucks anyway. Convention garbage trucks get about 3.5mpg due to all the stop and go they do.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: charrison

Other than cost and solar does nothing for the transport industry.

Isn't there a prototype plane in Sweden that has huge wings with solar panels installed that can fly 300 people without anything other than sunlight energy? Sure, it had a flight period between 10:00am and 4:00pm, but at least it's going in the right direction.

Also, airlines are investing heavily in algae grown fuel that will work with existing planes. They are at the point they have built scaled down planes/engines to try the fuel out to make sure that it works closely to our current jet fuel.

There's more developement going on right now (happily) since any point of time right after the 70's oil embargo. I'm happy to see it too!

The problem is solar panels do not produce enough electricity for transport, at least not yet. A tractor trailer rig is 45 feet long and 10 feet wide, yeilding 450 square feet of surface area. It takes 745 watts to produce 1 HP and current conversion rates there is just not enough power there to do anything meaningful.

You're thinking inside the box too much. Trains are electric with diesel generators that run them (similar to GM's Volt hybrid). Growing our electric infrastructure and then our railways, we could eliminate a large portion of truck shipping between long distances. Then, using biofuels or other developed fuels, you transport the products the shorter distance to the markets.

Even the development of the plane above to haul cargo during sunlight hours would help tremendously. Everything is on the table right now, because when you run out of fuel, it's too late to brainstorm then....

I dont disagree with what you say, but currently solar is just not cheap enough to justify its wide spead use. This will change over time.

I agree more cargo needs to get onto rail and that is happening as rail is a more efficient way to ship things. Electrification of our rail system would be a huge undertaking. It would be far easier and cheaper to produce syndiesel from coal to run the railroad. The railroads already carry the coal, so it would be easy for them to pick syndiesel why they are there.

We may be running out of cheap oil, but there are plenty of hydrocarbons left in the US to power our infrastructure till we convert to better alternatives.

Photovoltaics still need to mature a bit more before they're ready for prime-time, but concentrating solar with thermal storage (to produce energy at night as well) looks very promising. Cheap and clean, and the technology is available today. We just need to start building them.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Photovoltaics still need to mature a bit more before they're ready for prime-time, but concentrating solar with thermal storage (to produce energy at night as well) looks very promising. Cheap and clean, and the technology is available today. We just need to start building them.

If they are profitable then why isn't anyone building them?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Photovoltaics still need to mature a bit more before they're ready for prime-time, but concentrating solar with thermal storage (to produce energy at night as well) looks very promising. Cheap and clean, and the technology is available today. We just need to start building them.

If they are profitable then why isn't anyone building them?

Sure go ahead, watch who stops you.