The Perception Gap

[dank69]

Actual scientific polling shows Democrats are nowhere near 70% in favor of open borders. It's more like 70% against open borders.

Yeah this whole survey seems poorly designed and executed.

 

[fskimospy]

I think you are mistaken at least at the national level. The Party determines who gets funding, who gets approved and the financial powers who are one with the party control who is the most known, gets greater air time and in the end there's "some guy" who has no chance in hell of winning (that too is controlled) and approved by the powers that be. That last part is distinctly NOT the citizen. Any horse you like, said Hobson.

The only time this has failed in my long memory is Trump and that was only because he managed to infect the Republicans who weakened themselves by their ridiculous attacks on Obama, which caused a reflexive opposite in policy and ethics and morality by the leadership who enforced it on the rank and file in DC.

No, the manipulation is almost perfect and invulnerable and partisans are completely happy when it's their side who does it for "the greater good" of course.

There are two potential solutions. First is that partisans hold themselves to a higher standard of ethical behavior than anyone else or revolution. The second is IMO more likely of the two.

I strongly disagree. Read this page and look at the long, long list of establishment Republicans who very clearly had the party's backing and the party's funding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_history_of_the_Tea_Party_movement

Reps, senators, the fucking House Majority Leader (!!). All of them backed by the party and all of them ousted by extremist primary voters.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Yeah this whole survey seems poorly designed and executed.

yup. Same with the socialism question. I don't think Democrats are THAT stupid.

Or maybe I'm just taking these too literally? I mean, I'm fine with some socialistic-esque policies or departments.... But when I see Socialist I'm thinking an entirely socialist society.

Same with Open borders - I take that to literally mean open borders with no oversight, no guards, and no immigration process in place....

Same thing with "The police are bad people"... You're telling me that ~85% of Democrats believe that ALL cops are bad people? I would hope that at least 15% of the Democrat population has a friend, neighbor, coworker, or buddy that is a cop and knows them as a generally good person?


Honestly, I hope we are all just misunderstanding the quiz or something

 

[ImpulsE69]

Maybe I'll reach out and ask them to look at this forum and get their take. I agree, as more people discuss it, there are some problem areas at least in interpreting the data.

 

[ewdotson]

Alternately, how about the "Properly controlled immigration can be good for America" question? I have a sneaking suspicion that many of the folks answering the quiz have a completely different idea of what "properly controlled immigration" entails. I think part of what this quiz winds up measuring is "what do you think the question even means" rather than "what do you think people in the other party believe".

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

yup. Same with the socialism question. I don't think Democrats are THAT stupid.

Or maybe I'm just taking these too literally? I mean, I'm fine with some socialistic-esque policies or departments.... But when I see Socialist I'm thinking an entirely socialist society.

Same with Open borders - I take that to literally mean open borders with no oversight, no guards, and no immigration process in place....

Same thing with "The police are bad people"... You're telling me that ~85% of Democrats believe that ALL cops are bad people? I would hope that at least 15% of the Democrat population has a friend, neighbor, coworker, or buddy that is a cop and knows them as a generally good person?


Honestly, I hope we are all just misunderstanding the quiz or something

See my snips above. I'm fairly certain that those four questions are supposed to be inversed... '% disagree' or whatever. Just shitty execution by whoever created the test.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

See my snips above. I'm fairly certain that those four questions are supposed to be inversed... '% disagree' or whatever. Just shitty execution by whoever created the test.

I see what you mean now -



The problem is that IMPORTANT text isn't on the questions when asked... Seems stupid.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I see what you mean now -

View attachment 7673

The problem is that IMPORTANT text isn't on the questions when asked... Seems stupid.

View attachment 7674

Agreed, taking those into account puts me much closer to zero'd with Democrats. I'm still in the negative with republicans apparently, I think too highly of them I guess.

It's still an idiotic test though. Doesn't take into account anything to do with geography, as an absolutely base example. The questions almost all have some kind of bias to them as well, which I'm sure is intentional.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Agreed, taking those into account puts me much closer to zero'd with Democrats. I'm still in the negative with republicans apparently, I think too highly of them I guess.

It's still an idiotic test though. Doesn't take into account anything to do with geography, as an absolutely base example. The questions almost all have some kind of bias to them as well, which I'm sure is intentional.

Agree, I always laugh at people that talk about open borders as anything remotely acceptable policy wise - when the only border they live close to is the Canadian border. Out of sight, out of mind I guess.... or just innately stupid.

 

[ImpulsE69]

I disagree, the question makes sense when discussing the topic which is extremism. You see it on these very forums, conservatives accusing liberals of wanting wide open borders, which isn't really the full story. It's meant to point out that that isn't what most democrats are interested in.

I don't really see any bias in the questions themselves, as they are general talking points regarding each side, but I do agree they could be worded better to make it clearer.

 

[soulcougher73]

As a selected Independant. 32% gap for Democraps, 24% gap for Repugnanticans

 

[dank69]

Agreed, taking those into account puts me much closer to zero'd with Democrats. I'm still in the negative with republicans apparently, I think too highly of them I guess.

It's still an idiotic test though. Doesn't take into account anything to do with geography, as an absolutely base example. The questions almost all have some kind of bias to them as well, which I'm sure is intentional.

The people who created this clearly started with the intentions of identifying how many extremists exist on each side. The way the questions are written though indicates they were written by people that don't understand their own biases.

"Let's think of the 7 most extreme questions we can ask each side. What do we know about extreme leftists? My FB feeds tell me they want to ban all guns, want completely open borders, police are evil, and they hate America. What about Republicans? Well the only reason I don't vote Republican is because too many of them hate all Muslims, women and black people, etc."

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

The people who created this clearly started with the intentions of identifying how many extremists exist on each side. The way the questions are written though indicates they were written by people that don't understand their own biases.

"Let's think of the 7 most extreme questions we can ask each side. What do we know about extreme leftists? My FB feeds tell me they want to ban all guns, want completely open borders, police are evil, and they hate America. What about Republicans? Well the only reason I don't vote Republican is because too many of them hate all Muslims, women and black people, etc."

Yep, it's pretty much a 'hotbutton issue checklist', where each 'side' rates how much the other 'side' cares about extreme issues that are supposed to represent that 'side'. Like, they don't ask the same question for republicans/democrats (open borders question, possess firearms question). It's just what's deemed to be important to that side based on MSM/facebook/whatever.

 

[ImpulsE69]

The people who created this clearly started with the intentions of identifying how many extremists exist on each side. The way the questions are written though indicates they were written by people that don't understand their own biases.

"Let's think of the 7 most extreme questions we can ask each side. What do we know about extreme leftists? My FB feeds tell me they want to ban all guns, want completely open borders, police are evil, and they hate America. What about Republicans? Well the only reason I don't vote Republican is because too many of them hate all Muslims, women and black people, etc."

How did you decide what makes a view “extreme”?

We designated views as “extreme” on the basis as that is what people’s political opponents would call such views. We used data from the Hidden Tribes project and external sources (shown on page 56 of the report) to support the assumption that each a particular view would be characterized as “extreme” by members of the other political party. As shown in the data, a key finding is that the number of people on either side of the political spectrum who hold such views is much smaller than one might think.

 

[ImpulsE69]

For a bunch of people who are here day to day who appear to be scouring the web throwing up newsreels, blogs, and wikis that support what you think, you sure are a close minded judgemental bunch. Just saying. Read the about section which explains the purpose and how they came about it.

 

[dank69]

How did you decide what makes a view “extreme”?

We designated views as “extreme” on the basis as that is what people’s political opponents would call such views. We used data from the Hidden Tribes project and external sources (shown on page 56 of the report) to support the assumption that each a particular view would be characterized as “extreme” by members of the other political party. As shown in the data, a key finding is that the number of people on either side of the political spectrum who hold such views is much smaller than one might think.

Jesus, what a stupid thing to do. You don't figure out what extremism is by asking the other side. You find out what things very few people on one side support. If 70% of Democrats support something, that is a mainstream Democrat policy.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Jesus, what a stupid thing to do. You don't figure out what extremism is by asking the other side. You find out what things very few people on one side support. If 70% of Democrats support something, that is a mainstream Democrat policy.

Why not? You don't get extemism out of thin air. You ask people what they think is extreme...

 

[pmv]

I don't really understand this survey. That site said my perception gap was 1% for Republicans, 35% for Democrats (in the direction of overestimating how conservative they are)

I got the Republican responses almost spot on*, but very slightly underestimated how conservative they are,.

But the whole thing seems rather silly to me, because it all hinges on what people mean by the words in their responses. I went for a tiny % of Democrats think America should be a socialist country, when the true figure is, surprisingly to me, apparently much larger than that...but I seriously doubt they all had the same idea in mind as to what socialism is. If 62% of Democrats think the US should be socialist, how did the Dems end up with the Clintons?

Likewise the Republicans, as I guessed, said they were fine with 'properly controlled immigration', but the whole argument is over what constitutes 'proper controls' so that doesn't mean much.


* perhaps the educational effect of this forum?


Ah, so it seems that if you say you are 'independent' it messes up the questions, giving some of the figures back-to-front? Is that what's going on there?

 

[pmv]

For a bunch of people who are here day to day who appear to be scouring the web throwing up newsreels, blogs, and wikis that support what you think, you sure are a close minded judgemental bunch. Just saying. Read the about section which explains the purpose and how they came about it.

But did you take the survey while saying you are an 'independent'? It doesn't seem to make much sense - I don't believe that 62%of Dems think the US should be a socialist country, and certainly not that 90% think that most cops are bad people.

Still chuffed that I got the Republican attitudes almost dead-right, though. But that's just a judgement about what they would _say_ in response to a survey, not about what actually determines their actions and votes.

 

[fskimospy]

I don't really understand this survey. That site said my perception gap was 1% for Republicans, 35% for Democrats (in the direction of overestimating how conservative they are)

I got the Republican responses almost spot on*, but very slightly underestimated how conservative they are,.

But the whole thing seems rather silly to me, because it all hinges on what people mean by the words in their responses. I went for a tiny % of Democrats think America should be a socialist country, when the true figure is, surprisingly to me, apparently much larger than that...but I seriously doubt they all had the same idea in mind as to what socialism is. If 62% of Democrats think the US should be socialist, how did the Dems end up with the Clintons?

Likewise the Republicans, as I guessed, said they were fine with 'properly controlled immigration', but the whole argument is over what constitutes 'proper controls' so that doesn't mean much.


* perhaps the educational effect of this forum?

It's a consistent phenomenon that most people, even most elected officials overestimate how conservative Americans are.

https://www.vanderbilt.edu/csdi/miller-stokes/08_MillerStokes_BroockmanSkovron.pdf

Particularly interesting is that Democratic politicians overestimate how conservative their constituents are but they were generally in the ballpark. Republican politicians massively overestimate how conservative their voters are, to the tune of over 20 points.

 

[ImpulsE69]

But did you take the survey while saying you are an 'independent'? It doesn't seem to make much sense - I don't believe that 62%of Dems think the US should be a socialist country, and certainly not that 90% think that most cops are bad people.

Still chuffed that I got the Republican attitudes almost dead-right, though. But that's just a judgement about what they would _say_ in response to a survey, not about what actually determines their actions and votes.

I think [DHT]Osiris was correct in pointing out that the 'true' number was supposed to be inversed and the question was asked incorrectly....I think.

 

[pmv]

It's a consistent phenomenon that most people, even most elected officials overestimate how conservative Americans are.

https://www.vanderbilt.edu/csdi/miller-stokes/08_MillerStokes_BroockmanSkovron.pdf

Particularly interesting is that Democratic politicians overestimate how conservative their constituents are but they were generally in the ballpark. Republican politicians massively overestimate how conservative their voters are, to the tune of over 20 points.

Although I believe your sources are entirely correct about that, I think the reason in my case was the stupid website getting key questions back-to-front. I think if I correct for that my overestimation of Democrat conservatism is a lot smaller...but still there.

The big one on the Republican side was I over-estimated how many would be prepared to concede that Trump is a flawed personality.

 

[tweaker2]

Extremism begets what is perceived to be as a whole, an extreme reaction to it.

From where I stand, the GOP started this whole thing the moment the Civil Rights Act of '64 became law and they exploited it to their favor. From thereon in it was simply a matter of applying more and more "extremely extreme" divisive politics for winning elections, each level of extreme becoming the norm in the eyes of the GOP constituency.

All told, yes, there were/are some of what's considered to be examples of extreme reactions from the left in answer to the rights extremist behavior, but not much as to transform the substance of the party's platform.

It seems to me that the right pulling ever further right dragged the Dem's platform further right along with them, just much less so.

The distance between the parties is widening, but it's the right that's pulling away a lot faster than the left's urges to follow it.

edit - Want an example? Just look at how Trump is so popular within the Repub Party. Trump, the narcissistic, habitually lying, money laundering tax cheating adulterer is very well liked by the party faithful because of his racist far right wing views, whereas Obama was the Devil's spawn.

 

[mindless1]

This is based on such an inherently false premise it's ridiculous.

To start, you're willfully ignoring the popular vote. Most American voters did not want Trump in 2016, and they certainly don't now.

You still don't GET IT.

It doesn't matter. What matters is that as awful a candidate as trump was, he still managed to get the votes he did, despite those who voted against him for other reasons.

This is a very clear sign the america is tired of the leftist nonsense.

If it had been a solid candidate instead of trump, it would have been a landslide win.

It's not trump who is the victor here, it's freedom instead of f-tards imposing upon hard working americans.

What has trump done really? Besides being a pig, he has reversed the nonsense. Government should get smaller and you should earn your own way in life not playing shell games to cheat.

It's not about Trump. It's about the stupidity that is the modern democratic party. The republicans also have their own idiots, don't think that I align with either extreme view.

This is the problem, a constant battle between two extremes instead of a sane middle ground.

whereas Obama was the Devil's spawn

Yes Obama was. Obama was good at being a politician, saying what people wanted to hear, but was impossible and drug the country down following unicorns. Obama was either a blatant liar or an ingnorant (stupid) dreamer, take you pick but either is not fit for a president.

The same could be said about most politicians, unfortunately winning a popularity contest means you devoted your time to do that while those most fit to make good decisions, are busy doing that and then subject to the politicians.

 

[nickqt]

You still don't GET IT.

It doesn't matter. What matters is that as awful a candidate as trump was, he still managed to get the votes he did, despite those who voted against him for other reasons.

This is a very clear sign the america is tired of the leftist nonsense.

If it had been a solid candidate instead of trump, it would have been a landslide win.

It's not trump who is the victor here, it's freedom instead of f-tards imposing upon hard working americans.

What has trump done really? Besides being a pig, he has reversed the nonsense. Government should get smaller and you should earn your own way in life not playing shell games to cheat.

It's not about Trump. It's about the stupidity that is the modern democratic party. The republicans also have their own idiots, don't think that I align with either extreme view.

This is the problem, a constant battle between two extremes instead of a sane middle ground.

Ah, yes. Classic.

Strongman Trump is the libruuls fault, because, uh, society is changing and I don't like it!

Tired of winning, indeed.