The Muslim Dr. Phil?

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
It's one of the reasons Islam is (and that's in my humble opinion of course) the most preserved religion since it came to existence in the Arabic peninsula +1400 years ago.

... and therein lies the root of the entire problem.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: yllus
....
And finally, the Koran sitting on my bookshelf says "scourge them".

This is something I consider entirely unacceptable in a religion. I draw no comparison to Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism... I don't care about what's better or what's worse. Taken on its own - an absolutely unacceptable statement. I am disgusted by the people who would spin this into pretending that means something other than it very clearly does.

Simply: Yes, you are allowed to beat your wife by the principles of Islam. First speak to them, then send them away, but if those measures fail, according to the Koran you are allowed to lay a hand on your wife.

Did you see the videos in the OP? Yusuf Estes a notable American Muslim scholar that has a good understanding of both English and Arabic said that the word "scourge" used in your translated copy of the Quran, is actually a mistranslation, the clocsest meaning is to tap/hit not to scourge. Look at the video yourself and you'll see.

As an Arab myself, I know very well Arabic is an especially tough language to translate and specifically when it comes to thee most vocabulary rich book known to all Arabic scholars. You have to focus very well on the context and after that you have to compare the Quran with Sunnah teachings of Mohammad(PBUH) then you arrive at your conclusion, it's not always that you can take things out of the Quran and say BOOYA!

The problem you are facing here is that you don't understand the complex structure of Islam as a religion (and that's why I think you are in no position to pass judgments around just like that).
Interpretations of things that aren't straight down common knowledge cannot be made by simply reading the Quran alone, Islamic scholar's research findings MUST BE entertained before a decision is arrived at, the process involves intense research about all possible sources and references that are considered legal.

Usually for you as a non-Muslim, you don't get exposed to topics relating to Islamic sciences, but it's no trip in the park and in some cases require decades of concentrated academic exposure and in some rare scenarios centuries of cumulative debate and that is an exaggeration by no means. It's one of the reasons Islam is (and that's in my humble opinion of course) thee most preserved religion since it came to existence in the Arabic peninsula +1400 years ago. A painstaking process has to be undergone every time a single philosophical dispute surfaces.

You can say all you want, but the facts are in your face, scholars (except for a handful of fundamentalist ones), Mohammad and the Quran are basically telling you don't do it as it's pretty much in most cases pointless and comes with a whole series of restrictions where most of the time nothing comes out of it. Now this was +1400 years ago, and even then it was not a common practice nor something encouraged not even by the top example for every Muslim (Mohammad PBUH), so what about about our times? Think about it. In all the Islamic communities that I have lived in here and abroad, it's a big shame to beat your wife, it means your not a man really, well unless it is some extreme situation, like a man walking into his room only to find his wide in his bed with some other guy, then maybe it would be considered justified over there but you get the idea it just doesn't apply to a normal and peaceful life style

tap/hit? YEAH, if your angry words don't do enough then tap her? Skip the tap and state it as it clearly says: HIT HER!

You can go round and round and round with this, telling us why and how and what, the only thing anyone is interested in here is that the Koran allows for a man to HIT his disobedient wife.

As if she was his cattle or slave and isn't that pretty much what women are in Muslim marriages, much like in some forms of Christian marriages (man above woman exists in all Abrahamic religions).

There is no excuse for it, not in religion and not in any other way either.

If you don't like your relationship with your wife, divorce her, forcing her to be obedient by threatening her with physical violence makes her your slave, not your wife.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
It's one of the reasons Islam is (and that's in my humble opinion of course) the most preserved religion since it came to existence in the Arabic peninsula +1400 years ago.

... and therein lies the root of the entire problem.

YUP, it has not evolved in it's practice and does not fit into the society we live in today.

"the good old days" was a shitty place to be for women and actually... pretty much for everyone.

Today even the Catholic church acknowledges the theory of Evolution as the fact it is, Islam seems to be going backwards, from some modernisation to mideval "cut your head of and rape your children" kind of bullshit.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
To be fair, they all have the same color hair, so the scarf doesn't really take anything away from the imagination.

:roll:

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
If you don't like your relationship with your wife, divorce her, forcing her to be obedient by threatening her with physical violence makes her your slave, not your wife.

I agree 100%, but that's not how Islam sees it. And that's the problem.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
If you don't like your relationship with your wife, divorce her, forcing her to be obedient by threatening her with physical violence makes her your slave, not your wife.

I agree 100%, but that's not how Islam sees it. And that's the problem.

I'd say it goes for all Abrahamic religions but it's definently more pronounced and severe in Islam.

I won't try to make other religions "man owns woman" laws and rules an excuse for what happens in Islam, i won't do it the other way around either.

There is a big difference though, LAWS in the western nations are not based on religion and so it doesn't matter what your religion says, if you beat your wife, you're going to jail.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: yllus
....
And finally, the Koran sitting on my bookshelf says "scourge them".

This is something I consider entirely unacceptable in a religion. I draw no comparison to Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism... I don't care about what's better or what's worse. Taken on its own - an absolutely unacceptable statement. I am disgusted by the people who would spin this into pretending that means something other than it very clearly does.

Simply: Yes, you are allowed to beat your wife by the principles of Islam. First speak to them, then send them away, but if those measures fail, according to the Koran you are allowed to lay a hand on your wife.

Did you see the videos in the OP? Yusuf Estes a notable American Muslim scholar that has a good understanding of both English and Arabic said that the word "scourge" used in your translated copy of the Quran, is actually a mistranslation, the clocsest meaning is to tap/hit not to scourge. Look at the video yourself and you'll see.

As an Arab myself, I know very well Arabic is an especially tough language to translate and specifically when it comes to thee most vocabulary rich book known to all Arabic scholars. You have to focus very well on the context and after that you have to compare the Quran with Sunnah teachings of Mohammad(PBUH) then you arrive at your conclusion, it's not always that you can take things out of the Quran and say BOOYA!

The problem you are facing here is that you don't understand the complex structure of Islam as a religion (and that's why I think you are in no position to pass judgments around just like that).
Interpretations of things that aren't straight down common knowledge cannot be made by simply reading the Quran alone, Islamic scholar's research findings MUST BE entertained before a decision is arrived at, the process involves intense research about all possible sources and references that are considered legal.

Usually for you as a non-Muslim, you don't get exposed to topics relating to Islamic sciences, but it's no trip in the park and in some cases require decades of concentrated academic exposure and in some rare scenarios centuries of cumulative debate and that is an exaggeration by no means. It's one of the reasons Islam is (and that's in my humble opinion of course) thee most preserved religion since it came to existence in the Arabic peninsula +1400 years ago. A painstaking process has to be undergone every time a single philosophical dispute surfaces.

You can say all you want, but the facts are in your face, scholars (except for a handful of fundamentalist ones), Mohammad and the Quran are basically telling you don't do it as it's pretty much in most cases pointless and comes with a whole series of restrictions where most of the time nothing comes out of it. Now this was +1400 years ago, and even then it was not a common practice nor something encouraged not even by the top example for every Muslim (Mohammad PBUH), so what about about our times? Think about it. In all the Islamic communities that I have lived in here and abroad, it's a big shame to beat your wife, it means your not a man really, well unless it is some extreme situation, like a man walking into his room only to find his wide in his bed with some other guy, then maybe it would be considered justified over there but you get the idea it just doesn't apply to a normal and peaceful life style

Your attempt to gain some kind of intellectual high ground is amusing but in the end quite incorrect. Try not to cast assumptions upon another person's knowledge. I understand the "complex structure of Islam as a religion" perfectly.

You don't seem to get it.

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a punch, is considered permissible by the Koran. That is not in question.

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a punch, is not considered permissible by modern society.

What is in question is which one you accept is correct and which is incorrect. Personally, and I think this goes for many people, I choose today's standards over what the Koran says on this matter.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Sheikh Yusuf Estes weirds me out... every time I see him, I feel like I'm watching a Saturday Night Live skit!

AFAIC, the only excuse to ever hit a woman is self-defense, or in stopping a violent crime from being committed by said woman.

Any religion that states, or even implies, otherwise, is FLAWED and SICK. period.

I take it you're not a fan of most Western religions then? Because most of them seem to have a pretty medieval attitude towards women, even if some of the modern adherents have managed to studiously ignore that particular facet of their faith.

Very true, women in Islam have more rights then they could ever dream of in western religions, yet I don't see a single person talking about that.
I don't know of a religion that in it's holy book talks in detail what a women's rights are when it comes to finance, inheritance, work, house affairs, politics, legal matter ...etc Feel free to read for yourselves.

And as when it comes to beating your wife, I think this guy nailed it.
And no I don't think it's a futile exercise NOTHING in the Quran is futile, it's a last resort when IMHO all communication fails on the woman's sidde, and you know between you and God that she won't listen to you otherwise when she is truly doing the wrong thing under religious ruling!
The man in the video says that some scientists even advocated that instead of using something as small as a meswak/toothbrush a man can poke the woman with his fist. It's dead obvious that the purpose is not to inflict physical damage but it's to get the attention of the woman to the magnitude of her mistake.

Even in our western societies like here in the states, a man just can't be arrested for lightly poking his wife with his fist! If it doesn't inflict significant pain, bruise or cause any type of injury then it doesn't really fit the legal definition of violence.

KEEP IN MIND every Muslim's top example is prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and in no historical reference that I have come across does Mohammad (PBUH) advocate nor implements wife beating.

Mohammed married a six year old girl and fucked her when she was nine, if that is what Muslims go by then all Muslims are pedophiles? Of course not, sanity does prevail over religion in modern society, sometimes.

So you are the one to decide when your wife is not following the religious ruling, who decides when YOU are not following it, does your wife get to beat you then or is that a right she doesn't have in the "equal" Muslim matrimony?

We have Muslim courts in all Islamic and most non-Islamic countries, we are not animals, spousal disputes are almost in all cases solved there. A woman has the same rights as a man in an Islamic court. If a man beats his wife first she drags his ass to a government court, then she drags his ass to an Islamic court so that marriage issues can be taken care of, either that entails a punishment, conditions or a divorce.

A Muslim woman woman can if she so desires, have as part of the marriage contract a condition that if she wants a divorce at any point it's granted to her with no if's and buts but did you know that? I don't think so.

Also a Muslim woman can have if she so desires, have as part of the marriage contract a condition that she wants to keep her original family name instead of taking her husband's family name, did you know that?

And there is much more to it, Islam offers MUCH more rights to a woman than you ever want to believe and that is a fact sir.

Also beatings are not something Muslim judges tolerate one bit, and I know that from the local cases I followed when I used to live oversees, it's just like being here in the states. A woman being physically abused gets the advantage of being protected and is recommended to leave her husband and start a new life where she is respected. The husband on the other hand gets a shit load of trouble to deal with instead.

Along with all other rights of course, women are mostly slaves to men under ANY religion, Islam is most definently not different, it does mention some things about how to keep her happy but that's mostly so she'll not stray and you'll have to stone her to death.

Care to back that up with proof son? Plus a big FYI for you, stoning is equally applicable to a cheating man OR woman and so is whipping, hand cutting and others. But who applies those still any longer one might ask? Apart from regressive places like Saudi Arabia and Iran?

YUP, it has not evolved in it's practice and does not fit into the society we live in today.

"the good old days" was a shitty place to be for women and actually... pretty much for everyone.

Yet again, more hate, less proof. You are gravely mistaken sir.
Also, Islam isn't made out of plastic so that you can re-mold whever a new man made law comes around. If a relegion isn't a %100 compatible with man made law it doesn't necessarily make it evil last time I checked.

Islam seems to be going backwards, from some modernisation to mideval "cut your head of and rape your children" kind of bullshit.

Not true, Islam has and will always be what it is,our book has been and still is the same and so are the teachings of our beloved prophet. Islam helped it's followers reach the top of the world at one point from the bottom of the world, and getting away from it and diving into extremism has lead a good portion of the Muslims to the bottom of the world. It's the choice of some of it's followers to go on the dark path of backwardness and extremism due to the increasingly political situation that we all now live in. Not Islam's fault IMAO. You have to set a boundary between what is Islam and what is choice.

Now I see that you live in the UK, perhaps it's because your government doesn't do sht about the extremos you guys have that you are filled with so much despise, I don't blame you for your angry attitude though, I mean I am a Muslim and if I had to deal with a good portion of the Muslims in the UK I would be pissed too.
But please don't go ahead and lash out on every single Muslim that crosses your path, not the wisest of choices my friend.

Heck if you are ever here in the states I would be more than willing to show you in person how easily Islam fits into a modern community, how well assimilated Muslims are here without having to sacrifice their principles and without having to be at odds with society.

Peace

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Sheikh Yusuf Estes weirds me out... every time I see him, I feel like I'm watching a Saturday Night Live skit!

AFAIC, the only excuse to ever hit a woman is self-defense, or in stopping a violent crime from being committed by said woman.

Any religion that states, or even implies, otherwise, is FLAWED and SICK. period.

I take it you're not a fan of most Western religions then? Because most of them seem to have a pretty medieval attitude towards women, even if some of the modern adherents have managed to studiously ignore that particular facet of their faith.

Very true, women in Islam have more rights then they could ever dream of in western religions, yet I don't see a single person talking about that.
I don't know of a religion that in it's holy book talks in detail what a women's rights are when it comes to finance, inheritance, work, house affairs, politics, legal matter ...etc Feel free to read for yourselves.

And as when it comes to beating your wife, I think this guy nailed it.
And no I don't think it's a futile exercise NOTHING in the Quran is futile, it's a last resort when IMHO all communication fails on the woman's sidde, and you know between you and God that she won't listen to you otherwise when she is truly doing the wrong thing under religious ruling!
The man in the video says that some scientists even advocated that instead of using something as small as a meswak/toothbrush a man can poke the woman with his fist. It's dead obvious that the purpose is not to inflict physical damage but it's to get the attention of the woman to the magnitude of her mistake.

Even in our western societies like here in the states, a man just can't be arrested for lightly poking his wife with his fist! If it doesn't inflict significant pain, bruise or cause any type of injury then it doesn't really fit the legal definition of violence.

KEEP IN MIND every Muslim's top example is prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and in no historical reference that I have come across does Mohammad (PBUH) advocate nor implements wife beating.

Mohammed married a six year old girl and fucked her when she was nine, if that is what Muslims go by then all Muslims are pedophiles? Of course not, sanity does prevail over religion in modern society, sometimes.

So you are the one to decide when your wife is not following the religious ruling, who decides when YOU are not following it, does your wife get to beat you then or is that a right she doesn't have in the "equal" Muslim matrimony?

We have Muslim courts in all Islamic and most non-Islamic countries, we are not animals, spousal disputes are almost in all cases solved there. A woman has the same rights as a man in an Islamic court. If a man beats his wife first she drags his ass to a government court, then she drags his ass to an Islamic court so that marriage issues can be taken care of, either that entails a punishment, conditions or a divorce.

A Muslim woman woman can if she so desires, have as part of the marriage contract a condition that if she wants a divorce at any point it's granted to her with no if's and buts but did you know that? I don't think so.

Also a Muslim woman can have if she so desires, have as part of the marriage contract a condition that she wants to keep her original family name instead of taking her husband's family name, did you know that?

And there is much more to it, Islam offers MUCH more rights to a woman than you ever want to believe and that is a fact sir.

Also beatings are not something Muslim judges tolerate one bit, and I know that from the local cases I followed when I used to live oversees, it's just like being here in the states. A woman being physically abused gets the advantage of being protected and is recommended to leave her husband and start a new life where she is respected. The husband on the other hand gets a shit load of trouble to deal with instead.

Along with all other rights of course, women are mostly slaves to men under ANY religion, Islam is most definently not different, it does mention some things about how to keep her happy but that's mostly so she'll not stray and you'll have to stone her to death.

Care to back that up with proof son? Plus a big FYI for you, stoning is equally applicable to a cheating man OR woman and so is whipping, hand cutting and others. But who applies those still any longer one might ask? Apart from regressive places like Saudi Arabia and Iran?

YUP, it has not evolved in it's practice and does not fit into the society we live in today.

"the good old days" was a shitty place to be for women and actually... pretty much for everyone.

Yet again, more hate, less proof. You are gravely mistaken sir.
Also, Islam isn't made out of plastic so that you can re-mold whever a new man made law comes around. If a relegion isn't a %100 compatible with man made law it doesn't necessarily make it evil last time I checked.

Islam seems to be going backwards, from some modernisation to mideval "cut your head of and rape your children" kind of bullshit.

Not true, Islam has and will always be what it is,our book has been and still is the same and so are the teachings of our beloved prophet. Islam helped it's followers reach the top of the world at one point from the bottom of the world, and getting away from it and diving into extremism has lead a good portion of the Muslims to the bottom of the world. It's the choice of some of it's followers to go on the dark path of backwardness and extremism due to the increasingly political situation that we all now live in. Not Islam's fault IMAO. You have to set a boundary between what is Islam and what is choice.

Now I see that you live in the UK, perhaps it's because your government doesn't do sht about the extremos you guys have that you are filled with so much despise, I don't blame you for your angry attitude though, I mean I am a Muslim and if I had to deal with a good portion of the Muslims in the UK I would be pissed too.
But please don't go ahead and lash out on every single Muslim that crosses your path, not the wisest of choices my friend.

Heck if you are ever here in the states I would be more than willing to show you in person how easily Islam fits into a modern community, how well assimilated Muslims are here without having to sacrifice their principles and without having to be at odds with society.

Peace

I don't think you get what i'm saying really, i'm not trying to use a broad brush to paint all Muslims equally.

To get to the very point i'm trying to make here, it's never ok to beat a woman no matter what she does or what your religion says, period.

I'm in Afghanistan, i'm used to the people who defend the Talibans with the words from the Koran, and i hate every last one of them, i truly want them all dead, every single one of them, they are the scum of the earth and if ANY group has ever brought shame over a religion it's them, even more than Fred Phelps brings shame to christianity.

But i've also seen what has happened in Afghanistan, where Muslim women wear their veil or cast their veil in a free society where respect comes from human to human, not from archaic laws from thousands of years ago and this form of tolerant Islam i'm very fond of, it enriches the lives of those who practice it while it does not intrude on the rights and wellbeing of those who do not.

We don't have Islamic courts in the UK, we have one law and everyone is equal under it no matter what religion, race, gender or sexual orientation you have, we have very few extremists and were a very diverse society in the bigger cities.

I'd want you to take a stand against beating your wife no matter what any religious scripture says about it and no matter what she does (except of course in self defense where your physical being is in danger), that includes divorce and infidelity.

We all know wrong from right, beating a woman is something that every man knows is inherently wrong.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: yllus
....
And finally, the Koran sitting on my bookshelf says "scourge them".

This is something I consider entirely unacceptable in a religion. I draw no comparison to Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism... I don't care about what's better or what's worse. Taken on its own - an absolutely unacceptable statement. I am disgusted by the people who would spin this into pretending that means something other than it very clearly does.

Simply: Yes, you are allowed to beat your wife by the principles of Islam. First speak to them, then send them away, but if those measures fail, according to the Koran you are allowed to lay a hand on your wife.

Did you see the videos in the OP? Yusuf Estes a notable American Muslim scholar that has a good understanding of both English and Arabic said that the word "scourge" used in your translated copy of the Quran, is actually a mistranslation, the clocsest meaning is to tap/hit not to scourge. Look at the video yourself and you'll see.

As an Arab myself, I know very well Arabic is an especially tough language to translate and specifically when it comes to thee most vocabulary rich book known to all Arabic scholars. You have to focus very well on the context and after that you have to compare the Quran with Sunnah teachings of Mohammad(PBUH) then you arrive at your conclusion, it's not always that you can take things out of the Quran and say BOOYA!

The problem you are facing here is that you don't understand the complex structure of Islam as a religion (and that's why I think you are in no position to pass judgments around just like that).
Interpretations of things that aren't straight down common knowledge cannot be made by simply reading the Quran alone, Islamic scholar's research findings MUST BE entertained before a decision is arrived at, the process involves intense research about all possible sources and references that are considered legal.

Usually for you as a non-Muslim, you don't get exposed to topics relating to Islamic sciences, but it's no trip in the park and in some cases require decades of concentrated academic exposure and in some rare scenarios centuries of cumulative debate and that is an exaggeration by no means. It's one of the reasons Islam is (and that's in my humble opinion of course) thee most preserved religion since it came to existence in the Arabic peninsula +1400 years ago. A painstaking process has to be undergone every time a single philosophical dispute surfaces.

You can say all you want, but the facts are in your face, scholars (except for a handful of fundamentalist ones), Mohammad and the Quran are basically telling you don't do it as it's pretty much in most cases pointless and comes with a whole series of restrictions where most of the time nothing comes out of it. Now this was +1400 years ago, and even then it was not a common practice nor something encouraged not even by the top example for every Muslim (Mohammad PBUH), so what about about our times? Think about it. In all the Islamic communities that I have lived in here and abroad, it's a big shame to beat your wife, it means your not a man really, well unless it is some extreme situation, like a man walking into his room only to find his wide in his bed with some other guy, then maybe it would be considered justified over there but you get the idea it just doesn't apply to a normal and peaceful life style

Your attempt to gain some kind of intellectual high ground is amusing but in the end quite incorrect. Try not to cast assumptions upon another person's knowledge. I understand the "complex structure of Islam as a religion" perfectly.

I don't need to gain the intellectual high ground, I HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL HIGH GROUND ON THIS SUBJECT!!
This is my religion that I have been following for decades, when I talk to you about it you listen closely, the best way to learn / learn about a religion is to hear it's followers out clearly, not mock them!

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a punch, is considered permissible by the Koran. That is not in question.

FYI The video in Arabic says clearly a poke by the fist, not a punch.

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a poke, is not considered permissible by modern society.

True, and it's not encouraged under Islam to begin with so no problem there either.

What is in question is which one you accept is correct and which is incorrect. Personally, and I think this goes for many people, I choose today's standards over what the Koran says on this matter.

And I am not in disagreement there and neither are the scholars either. Since it was highly discouraged +1400 years ago by the prophet himself and didn't even use it, and neither do most scholars and especially with modern laws carrying consequences for it, then I don't see any incentive of whatsoever for a Muslim to use it.

I will say it loud and clear,
THERE IS NO NEED FOR BEATINGS IN OUR MODERN TIMES PERIOD

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
I don't need to gain the intellectual high ground, I HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL HIGH GROUND ON THIS SUBJECT!!
This is my religion that I have been following for decades, when I talk to you about it you listen closely, the best way to learn / learn about a religion is to hear it's followers out clearly, not mock them!

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a punch, is considered permissible by the Koran. That is not in question.

FYI The video in Arabic says clearly a poke by the fist, not a punch.

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a poke, is not considered permissible by modern society.

True, and it's not encouraged under Islam to begin with so no problem there either.

What is in question is which one you accept is correct and which is incorrect. Personally, and I think this goes for many people, I choose today's standards over what the Koran says on this matter.

And I am not in disagreement there and neither are the scholars either. Since it was highly discouraged +1400 years ago by the prophet himself and didn't even use it, and neither do most scholars and especially with modern laws carrying consequences for it, then I don't see any incentive of whatsoever for a Muslim to use it.

No, you merely think you have the intellectual high ground. I'm not mocking you, though I am pretty amused at this point. I'm simply telling you to stop assuming you know any more than another person. You don't.

Your one video says it is a poke. Your one video is not the be-all and end-all on the matter.

It's not encouraged but it is still technically permissible. Contrast this with modern law where it is absolutely not permissible.

For some reason you have trouble accepting the very simple fact that the Koran does allow violence towards women. No physical contact should be written as permitted. Not a little. Not a lot. None. Did you get it through your thick skull yet? None. The Koran is wrong to allow any measure of contact. Deal with it.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: yllus
....
And finally, the Koran sitting on my bookshelf says "scourge them".

This is something I consider entirely unacceptable in a religion. I draw no comparison to Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism... I don't care about what's better or what's worse. Taken on its own - an absolutely unacceptable statement. I am disgusted by the people who would spin this into pretending that means something other than it very clearly does.

Simply: Yes, you are allowed to beat your wife by the principles of Islam. First speak to them, then send them away, but if those measures fail, according to the Koran you are allowed to lay a hand on your wife.

Did you see the videos in the OP? Yusuf Estes a notable American Muslim scholar that has a good understanding of both English and Arabic said that the word "scourge" used in your translated copy of the Quran, is actually a mistranslation, the clocsest meaning is to tap/hit not to scourge. Look at the video yourself and you'll see.

As an Arab myself, I know very well Arabic is an especially tough language to translate and specifically when it comes to thee most vocabulary rich book known to all Arabic scholars. You have to focus very well on the context and after that you have to compare the Quran with Sunnah teachings of Mohammad(PBUH) then you arrive at your conclusion, it's not always that you can take things out of the Quran and say BOOYA!

The problem you are facing here is that you don't understand the complex structure of Islam as a religion (and that's why I think you are in no position to pass judgments around just like that).
Interpretations of things that aren't straight down common knowledge cannot be made by simply reading the Quran alone, Islamic scholar's research findings MUST BE entertained before a decision is arrived at, the process involves intense research about all possible sources and references that are considered legal.

Usually for you as a non-Muslim, you don't get exposed to topics relating to Islamic sciences, but it's no trip in the park and in some cases require decades of concentrated academic exposure and in some rare scenarios centuries of cumulative debate and that is an exaggeration by no means. It's one of the reasons Islam is (and that's in my humble opinion of course) thee most preserved religion since it came to existence in the Arabic peninsula +1400 years ago. A painstaking process has to be undergone every time a single philosophical dispute surfaces.

You can say all you want, but the facts are in your face, scholars (except for a handful of fundamentalist ones), Mohammad and the Quran are basically telling you don't do it as it's pretty much in most cases pointless and comes with a whole series of restrictions where most of the time nothing comes out of it. Now this was +1400 years ago, and even then it was not a common practice nor something encouraged not even by the top example for every Muslim (Mohammad PBUH), so what about about our times? Think about it. In all the Islamic communities that I have lived in here and abroad, it's a big shame to beat your wife, it means your not a man really, well unless it is some extreme situation, like a man walking into his room only to find his wide in his bed with some other guy, then maybe it would be considered justified over there but you get the idea it just doesn't apply to a normal and peaceful life style

Your attempt to gain some kind of intellectual high ground is amusing but in the end quite incorrect. Try not to cast assumptions upon another person's knowledge. I understand the "complex structure of Islam as a religion" perfectly.

I don't need to gain the intellectual high ground, I HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL HIGH GROUND ON THIS SUBJECT!!
This is my religion that I have been following for decades, when I talk to you about it you listen closely, the best way to learn / learn about a religion is to hear it's followers out clearly, not mock them!

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a punch, is considered permissible by the Koran. That is not in question.

FYI The video in Arabic says clearly a poke by the fist, not a punch.

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a poke, is not considered permissible by modern society.

True, and it's not encouraged under Islam to begin with so no problem there either.

What is in question is which one you accept is correct and which is incorrect. Personally, and I think this goes for many people, I choose today's standards over what the Koran says on this matter.

And I am not in disagreement there and neither are the scholars either. Since it was highly discouraged +1400 years ago by the prophet himself and didn't even use it, and neither do most scholars and especially with modern laws carrying consequences for it, then I don't see any incentive of whatsoever for a Muslim to use it.

I will say it loud and clear,
THERE IS NO NEED FOR BEATINGS IN OUR MODERN TIMES PERIOD

Discourage but allowed does not cut it, the only thing that really does cut it is FORBIDDEN or ILLEGAL or simply and plainly WRONG.

I'm curious, you know what the verses state, can you say that the Koran is wrong there?

I guess i'm pleading to your inherent sense of what is right that i believe should be the measurement of a man and not his religion.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Discourage but allowed does not cut it, the only thing that really does cut it is FORBIDDEN or ILLEGAL or simply and plainly WRONG.

I'm curious, you know what the verses state, can you say that the Koran is wrong there?

I guess i'm pleading to your inherent sense of what is right that i believe should be the measurement of a man and not his religion.

He's dealing with the age-old issue of trying to reconcile what his religion says with what he knows in his head is right. The religion says some contact is allowed. He knows in his head that none is. He tries to water down what his religion has said to let the two conflicting ideas mesh so he doesn't commit heresy, but it's impossible in this situation. The religion is simply wrong here. Watch him dodge and weave and offer explanations... Anything to avoid stating that the Koran is fallible.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
I don't need to gain the intellectual high ground, I HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL HIGH GROUND ON THIS SUBJECT!!
This is my religion that I have been following for decades, when I talk to you about it you listen closely, the best way to learn / learn about a religion is to hear it's followers out clearly, not mock them!

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a punch, is considered permissible by the Koran. That is not in question.

FYI The video in Arabic says clearly a poke by the fist, not a punch.

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a poke, is not considered permissible by modern society.

True, and it's not encouraged under Islam to begin with so no problem there either.

What is in question is which one you accept is correct and which is incorrect. Personally, and I think this goes for many people, I choose today's standards over what the Koran says on this matter.

And I am not in disagreement there and neither are the scholars either. Since it was highly discouraged +1400 years ago by the prophet himself and didn't even use it, and neither do most scholars and especially with modern laws carrying consequences for it, then I don't see any incentive of whatsoever for a Muslim to use it.

No, you merely think you have the intellectual high ground. I'm not mocking you, though I am pretty amused at this point. I'm simply telling you to stop assuming you know any more than another person. You don't.

Your one video says it is a poke. Your one video is not the be-all and end-all on the matter.

It's not encouraged but it is still technically permissible. Contrast this with modern law where it is absolutely not permissible.

For some reason you have trouble accepting the very simple fact that the Koran does allow violence towards women. No physical contact should be written as permitted. Not a little. Not a lot. None. Did you get it through your thick skull yet? None. The Koran is wrong to allow any measure of contact. Deal with it.

It's daft, "if you get really angry you may poke or tap her"???????? That just makes no sense at all, a good yelling at would be harsher and yet a poke or a tap is the harshest?

Christ i poke or tap people all the time just last week i poked myself in the eye with my G3 while washing my face, i guess i had it coming though, i've been disloyal to my mistress, carrying around the 870 for the crowd control. 😉

 

[alchemize]

Read between the lines folks. I can't believe nobody noticed this yet. He's basically repeating the (urban myth) "rule of thumb". Beat her with a stick no wider than that - but certainly as long as you want.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
I don't know of a religion that in it's holy book talks in detail what a women's rights are when it comes to finance, inheritance, work, house affairs, politics, legal matter ...etc Feel free to read for yourselves.

How pathetic. Why should a religion be necessary to tell us what the "rights" of a woman are? :roll:/q]

Because that is the BS excuse bible thumpers use to deny gay people the ability to have their marriages legally recognize here in this country.

RAWR let's kill Harry Potter and put him to death ! Long live Jesus camp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOIYsGVyg8M

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
I don't know of a religion that in it's holy book talks in detail what a women's rights are when it comes to finance, inheritance, work, house affairs, politics, legal matter ...etc Feel free to read for yourselves.

How pathetic. Why should a religion be necessary to tell us what the "rights" of a woman are? :roll:/q]

Because that is the BS excuse bible thumpers use to deny gay people the ability to have their marriages legally recognize here in this country.

While i agree that that is not better, it's hardly relevant to this thread.

You'll find me by your side defending that standpoint in another thread about just that if i happen to be online while such a thread is on the first page though. 🙂

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: alchemize
Read between the lines folks. I can't believe nobody noticed this yet. He's basically repeating the (urban myth) "rule of thumb". Beat her with a stick no wider than that - but certainly as long as you want.

That doesn't even matter, you can't do it ONCE no matter what size it is (unless you're both into BDSM of course).

Your wife is not your slave, she dosn't have to do shit unless she wants to, if she says no to anything, ANYTHING, then you'll just have to accept that.

There is NO reason to EVER hit a woman except for self defense, no matter what she says or what (or who) she does.

Not once, not even a slap, not grabbing her so hard that she feels pain, any form of physical abuse or threats is simply WRONG, there is no rule of thumb, if you're even thinking about what amount of violence is ok then you're seriously fucked up in the head.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: yllus
....
And finally, the Koran sitting on my bookshelf says "scourge them".

This is something I consider entirely unacceptable in a religion. I draw no comparison to Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism... I don't care about what's better or what's worse. Taken on its own - an absolutely unacceptable statement. I am disgusted by the people who would spin this into pretending that means something other than it very clearly does.

Simply: Yes, you are allowed to beat your wife by the principles of Islam. First speak to them, then send them away, but if those measures fail, according to the Koran you are allowed to lay a hand on your wife.

Did you see the videos in the OP? Yusuf Estes a notable American Muslim scholar that has a good understanding of both English and Arabic said that the word "scourge" used in your translated copy of the Quran, is actually a mistranslation, the clocsest meaning is to tap/hit not to scourge. Look at the video yourself and you'll see.

As an Arab myself, I know very well Arabic is an especially tough language to translate and specifically when it comes to thee most vocabulary rich book known to all Arabic scholars. You have to focus very well on the context and after that you have to compare the Quran with Sunnah teachings of Mohammad(PBUH) then you arrive at your conclusion, it's not always that you can take things out of the Quran and say BOOYA!

The problem you are facing here is that you don't understand the complex structure of Islam as a religion (and that's why I think you are in no position to pass judgments around just like that).
Interpretations of things that aren't straight down common knowledge cannot be made by simply reading the Quran alone, Islamic scholar's research findings MUST BE entertained before a decision is arrived at, the process involves intense research about all possible sources and references that are considered legal.

Usually for you as a non-Muslim, you don't get exposed to topics relating to Islamic sciences, but it's no trip in the park and in some cases require decades of concentrated academic exposure and in some rare scenarios centuries of cumulative debate and that is an exaggeration by no means. It's one of the reasons Islam is (and that's in my humble opinion of course) thee most preserved religion since it came to existence in the Arabic peninsula +1400 years ago. A painstaking process has to be undergone every time a single philosophical dispute surfaces.

You can say all you want, but the facts are in your face, scholars (except for a handful of fundamentalist ones), Mohammad and the Quran are basically telling you don't do it as it's pretty much in most cases pointless and comes with a whole series of restrictions where most of the time nothing comes out of it. Now this was +1400 years ago, and even then it was not a common practice nor something encouraged not even by the top example for every Muslim (Mohammad PBUH), so what about about our times? Think about it. In all the Islamic communities that I have lived in here and abroad, it's a big shame to beat your wife, it means your not a man really, well unless it is some extreme situation, like a man walking into his room only to find his wide in his bed with some other guy, then maybe it would be considered justified over there but you get the idea it just doesn't apply to a normal and peaceful life style

Your attempt to gain some kind of intellectual high ground is amusing but in the end quite incorrect. Try not to cast assumptions upon another person's knowledge. I understand the "complex structure of Islam as a religion" perfectly.

I don't need to gain the intellectual high ground, I HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL HIGH GROUND ON THIS SUBJECT!!
This is my religion that I have been following for decades, when I talk to you about it you listen closely, the best way to learn / learn about a religion is to hear it's followers out clearly, not mock them!

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a punch, is considered permissible by the Koran. That is not in question.

FYI The video in Arabic says clearly a poke by the fist, not a punch.

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a poke, is not considered permissible by modern society.

True, and it's not encouraged under Islam to begin with so no problem there either.

What is in question is which one you accept is correct and which is incorrect. Personally, and I think this goes for many people, I choose today's standards over what the Koran says on this matter.

And I am not in disagreement there and neither are the scholars either. Since it was highly discouraged +1400 years ago by the prophet himself and didn't even use it, and neither do most scholars and especially with modern laws carrying consequences for it, then I don't see any incentive of whatsoever for a Muslim to use it.

I will say it loud and clear,
THERE IS NO NEED FOR BEATINGS IN OUR MODERN TIMES PERIOD

Discourage but allowed does not cut it, the only thing that really does cut it is FORBIDDEN or ILLEGAL or simply and plainly WRONG.

I'm curious, you know what the verses state, can you say that the Koran is wrong there?

I guess i'm pleading to your inherent sense of what is right that i believe should be the measurement of a man and not his religion.

Look, from my personal analysis to this subject and it's historic links, back at those times (pre-Islamic just post Islamic), when a man takes a woman under his wings, it was seen as if she became his own daughter, the nature of the environment and society meant he is the sole provider for her and protector, without him she was SOL, if she was to commit a really serious mistake that would jeopardize his well being and talking to her would not make her rationalize her behavior and in between him and God he knows that she is committing a grave mistake then I would boldly say that yes back in those times, the Quran was not mistaken.
But here is where the scholars kick in, it's to determine what parts of the Quran where really needed only by the people who received it at that time and what parts are not applicable to our times. Now in these modern times, the pretext of the Quran's message concerning that specific line may not exist anymore and hence in a strange but logical way is forbidden! You see where I am going with this? It's a Grey matter that requires knowledgeable people, I can't come out and say NO IT'S WRONG because it's not applicable to our modern times, what do we know about the times of 1-2000 years ago? Different people, different behavior and different discipline. Yesterday it was OK to beat your son, nowadays you go to jail for the same thing, it doesn't mean the people who did back then were vicious monsters that didn't love their children!
Hell back home oversees (where it's perfectly legal if not encouraged 😛) decades ago my mom gave me and my brother a heck of an ass whopping when where kids and thank God she did otherwise I don't think we would have seen the big mistakes that our childish minds overshadowed.

But nowadays, it's a mistake to beat your kid, again society is a process in development, new ways surface in order to help address issues concerning parent-child relationships, spousal matters and so forth. So tell me why can't we look at the issue placed in that Quranic verse the same way?

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: alchemize
Read between the lines folks. I can't believe nobody noticed this yet. He's basically repeating the (urban myth) "rule of thumb". Beat her with a stick no wider than that - but certainly as long as you want.

That doesn't even matter, you can't do it ONCE no matter what size it is (unless you're both into BDSM of course).

Your wife is not your slave, she dosn't have to do shit unless she wants to, if she says no to anything, ANYTHING, then you'll just have to accept that.

There is NO reason to EVER hit a woman except for self defense, no matter what she says or what (or who) she does.

Not once, not even a slap, not grabbing her so hard that she feels pain, any form of physical abuse or threats is simply WRONG, there is no rule of thumb, if you're even thinking about what amount of violence is ok then you're seriously fucked up in the head.

JoS you misunderstand my post. I was saying that's what they psycho in the video is implying to his audience...

My wife's family is well armed and trained, I know better than to lay a hand on her 😉

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: yllus
....
And finally, the Koran sitting on my bookshelf says "scourge them".

This is something I consider entirely unacceptable in a religion. I draw no comparison to Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism... I don't care about what's better or what's worse. Taken on its own - an absolutely unacceptable statement. I am disgusted by the people who would spin this into pretending that means something other than it very clearly does.

Simply: Yes, you are allowed to beat your wife by the principles of Islam. First speak to them, then send them away, but if those measures fail, according to the Koran you are allowed to lay a hand on your wife.

Did you see the videos in the OP? Yusuf Estes a notable American Muslim scholar that has a good understanding of both English and Arabic said that the word "scourge" used in your translated copy of the Quran, is actually a mistranslation, the clocsest meaning is to tap/hit not to scourge. Look at the video yourself and you'll see.

As an Arab myself, I know very well Arabic is an especially tough language to translate and specifically when it comes to thee most vocabulary rich book known to all Arabic scholars. You have to focus very well on the context and after that you have to compare the Quran with Sunnah teachings of Mohammad(PBUH) then you arrive at your conclusion, it's not always that you can take things out of the Quran and say BOOYA!

The problem you are facing here is that you don't understand the complex structure of Islam as a religion (and that's why I think you are in no position to pass judgments around just like that).
Interpretations of things that aren't straight down common knowledge cannot be made by simply reading the Quran alone, Islamic scholar's research findings MUST BE entertained before a decision is arrived at, the process involves intense research about all possible sources and references that are considered legal.

Usually for you as a non-Muslim, you don't get exposed to topics relating to Islamic sciences, but it's no trip in the park and in some cases require decades of concentrated academic exposure and in some rare scenarios centuries of cumulative debate and that is an exaggeration by no means. It's one of the reasons Islam is (and that's in my humble opinion of course) thee most preserved religion since it came to existence in the Arabic peninsula +1400 years ago. A painstaking process has to be undergone every time a single philosophical dispute surfaces.

You can say all you want, but the facts are in your face, scholars (except for a handful of fundamentalist ones), Mohammad and the Quran are basically telling you don't do it as it's pretty much in most cases pointless and comes with a whole series of restrictions where most of the time nothing comes out of it. Now this was +1400 years ago, and even then it was not a common practice nor something encouraged not even by the top example for every Muslim (Mohammad PBUH), so what about about our times? Think about it. In all the Islamic communities that I have lived in here and abroad, it's a big shame to beat your wife, it means your not a man really, well unless it is some extreme situation, like a man walking into his room only to find his wide in his bed with some other guy, then maybe it would be considered justified over there but you get the idea it just doesn't apply to a normal and peaceful life style

Your attempt to gain some kind of intellectual high ground is amusing but in the end quite incorrect. Try not to cast assumptions upon another person's knowledge. I understand the "complex structure of Islam as a religion" perfectly.

I don't need to gain the intellectual high ground, I HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL HIGH GROUND ON THIS SUBJECT!!
This is my religion that I have been following for decades, when I talk to you about it you listen closely, the best way to learn / learn about a religion is to hear it's followers out clearly, not mock them!

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a punch, is considered permissible by the Koran. That is not in question.

FYI The video in Arabic says clearly a poke by the fist, not a punch.

Everyone is in agreement that some measure of physical contact, whether it be a "tap" or a poke, is not considered permissible by modern society.

True, and it's not encouraged under Islam to begin with so no problem there either.

What is in question is which one you accept is correct and which is incorrect. Personally, and I think this goes for many people, I choose today's standards over what the Koran says on this matter.

And I am not in disagreement there and neither are the scholars either. Since it was highly discouraged +1400 years ago by the prophet himself and didn't even use it, and neither do most scholars and especially with modern laws carrying consequences for it, then I don't see any incentive of whatsoever for a Muslim to use it.

I will say it loud and clear,
THERE IS NO NEED FOR BEATINGS IN OUR MODERN TIMES PERIOD

Discourage but allowed does not cut it, the only thing that really does cut it is FORBIDDEN or ILLEGAL or simply and plainly WRONG.

I'm curious, you know what the verses state, can you say that the Koran is wrong there?

I guess i'm pleading to your inherent sense of what is right that i believe should be the measurement of a man and not his religion.

Look, from my personal analysis to this subject and it's historic links, back at those times (pre-Islamic just post Islamic), when a man takes a woman under his wings, it was seen as if she became his own daughter, the nature of the environment and society meant he is the sole provider for her and protector, without him she was SOL, if she was to commit a really serious mistake that would jeopardize his well being and talking to her would not make her rationalize her behavior and in between him and God he knows that she is committing a grave mistake then I would boldly say that yes back in those times, the Quran was not mistaken.
But here is where the scholars kick in, it's to determine what parts of the Quran where really needed only by the people who received it at that time and what parts are not applicable to our times. Now in these modern times, the pretext of the Quran's message concerning that specific line may not exist anymore and hence in a strange but logical way is forbidden! You see where I am going with this? It's a Grey matter that requires knowledgeable people, I can't come out and say NO IT'S WRONG because it's not applicable to our modern times, what do we know about the times of 1-2000 years ago? Different people, different behavior and different discipline. Yesterday it was OK to beat your son, nowadays you go to jail for the same thing, it doesn't mean the people who did back then were vicious monsters that didn't love their children!
Hell back home oversees (where it's perfectly legal if not encouraged 😛) decades ago my mom gave me and my brother a heck of an ass whopping when where kids and thank God she did otherwise I don't think we would have seen the big mistakes that our childish minds overshadowed.

But nowadays, it's a mistake to beat your kid, again society is a process in development, new ways surface in order to help address issues concerning parent-child relationships, spousal matters and so forth. So tell me why can't we look at the issue placed in that Quranic verse the same way?

I've got two children, exemplary students, never spanked them nor did anything but take my time with them and behaved like any parent should.

It's been a long time since i was home... too long.

Anyway, i'll specify it in detail here.

Do you believe that the way the Koran says to allow the beatings (and don't give me crap about tapping or poking, you know as well as i what it really means) to be wrong IF APPLIED in todays modern society? Please just answer this with a yes or a now, no buts or ifs, it's a straightforward question broken into as much detail i can muster at this point and i've asked you severeal times.

You are making me confused, you state that it hasn't changed then you say that it's not applicable now which means that while the text hasn't changed (no shit?) the following has?

I don't get it?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: alchemize
Read between the lines folks. I can't believe nobody noticed this yet. He's basically repeating the (urban myth) "rule of thumb". Beat her with a stick no wider than that - but certainly as long as you want.

That doesn't even matter, you can't do it ONCE no matter what size it is (unless you're both into BDSM of course).

Your wife is not your slave, she dosn't have to do shit unless she wants to, if she says no to anything, ANYTHING, then you'll just have to accept that.

There is NO reason to EVER hit a woman except for self defense, no matter what she says or what (or who) she does.

Not once, not even a slap, not grabbing her so hard that she feels pain, any form of physical abuse or threats is simply WRONG, there is no rule of thumb, if you're even thinking about what amount of violence is ok then you're seriously fucked up in the head.

JoS you misunderstand my post. I was saying that's what they psycho in the video is implying to his audience...

My wife's family is well armed and trained, I know better than to lay a hand on her 😉

Oh, i didn't mean to imply that you supported it, i just meant that even IF that was his argument that would be wrong. 🙂 (by "your" i meant the universal your and by you i didn't mean YOU in person but that "you" that would apply that rule).

well armed and trained woman? 😀 Married? 🙁

Damnit! all the good ones are already taken. 🙁

 

[NaughtyGeek]

Originally posted by: Pabster
It is entirely possible to have morals and social fabric without organized, manipulative, cult-based Religion. I know, because I've been doing it for many years 😉

While I agree that religion isn't a necessity to form morals, you're really not the best example of that philosophy. You still support GWB to this day and have stated if he attacked Iran you'd be all for it.(Link)

As far as the OP is concerned, until you show me videos of the masses of suffering women, I think your argument is very weak. How many videos would you like of "Christian" fanatics stating it's OK to beat a woman if she gets out of hand or perhaps a "Christian" fanatic ranting about how it's OK to blow up an abortion clinic?

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

...
Look, from my personal analysis to this subject and it's historic links, back at those times (pre-Islamic just post Islamic), when a man takes a woman under his wings, it was seen as if she became his own daughter, the nature of the environment and society meant he is the sole provider for her and protector, without him she was SOL, if she was to commit a really serious mistake that would jeopardize his well being and talking to her would not make her rationalize her behavior and in between him and God he knows that she is committing a grave mistake then I would boldly say that yes back in those times, the Quran was not mistaken.
But here is where the scholars kick in, it's to determine what parts of the Quran where really needed only by the people who received it at that time and what parts are not applicable to our times. Now in these modern times, the pretext of the Quran's message concerning that specific line may not exist anymore and hence in a strange but logical way is forbidden! You see where I am going with this? It's a Grey matter that requires knowledgeable people, I can't come out and say NO IT'S WRONG because it's not applicable to our modern times, what do we know about the times of 1-2000 years ago? Different people, different behavior and different discipline. Yesterday it was OK to beat your son, nowadays you go to jail for the same thing, it doesn't mean the people who did back then were vicious monsters that didn't love their children!
Hell back home oversees (where it's perfectly legal if not encouraged 😛) decades ago my mom gave me and my brother a heck of an ass whopping when where kids and thank God she did otherwise I don't think we would have seen the big mistakes that our childish minds overshadowed.

But nowadays, it's a mistake to beat your kid, again society is a process in development, new ways surface in order to help address issues concerning parent-child relationships, spousal matters and so forth. So tell me why can't we look at the issue placed in that Quranic verse the same way?

I've got two children, exemplary students, never spanked them nor did anything but take my time with them and behaved like any parent should.

It's been a long time since i was home... too long.

Anyway, i'll specify it in detail here.

Do you believe that the way the Koran says to allow the beatings (and don't give me crap about tapping or poking, you know as well as i what it really means) to be wrong IF APPLIED in todays modern society? Please just answer this with a yes or a now, no buts or ifs, it's a straightforward question broken into as much detail i can muster at this point and i've asked you severeal times.

You are making me confused, you state that it hasn't changed then you say that it's not applicable now which means that while the text hasn't changed (no shit?) the following has?

I don't get it?

I thought I made it clear for you. Look check with any scholar about this, the Quran, though an eternal message which I also firmly believe that is true, has in it some verses that were addressed specifically to the people at that time to cater for their needs either it's about battles with the unbelievers or tribal issues and what not of things that don't exist anymore in our modern societies, however, none the less the issues were valid back then at those times but are inapplicable to current time

It doesn't mean Islam is a religion that is incompatible with humanity and feeling for others nor that it has to be modified to fit the times, I wouldn't follow it had that been the case, but the Quran is not a simple book to grasp all the time and the science of studying it is not easy either, however is logical still and capable of explaining it in a logical manner.
Things have to be put into perspective through the aid of those who have studied the Quran through the proper educational facilities and are versed in the science of explaining it through the aid of backing up their views with historic and religious references and proof. Now couple this with what I posted above and the example about how society changes it's views about child beatings then you'll see my perspective a little clearer.

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek

Originally posted by: Pabster
It is entirely possible to have morals and social fabric without organized, manipulative, cult-based Religion. I know, because I've been doing it for many years 😉

While I agree that religion isn't a necessity to form morals, you're really not the best example of that philosophy. You still support GWB to this day and have stated if he attacked Iran you'd be all for it.(Link)

As far as the OP is concerned, until you show me videos of the masses of suffering women, I think your argument is very weak. How many videos would you like of "Christian" fanatics stating it's OK to beat a woman if she gets out of hand or perhaps a "Christian" fanatic ranting about how it's OK to blow up an abortion clinic?

How many of these Christian fanatic leaders state that its OK to beat a woman on their own TV show or its OK to blow up an abortion clinic.

And for for anyone that thinks otherwise women in America have far more power than men when it comes to accusations of rape, or abuse,(ask the Duke lacrosse boys or Kobe Bryant) and many times prevail in divorce,and child custody unless they pull major crazy stunts like Britney.