The Muslim Dr. Phil?

[cwjerome]

TV show in Saudi Arabia. Our cultural differences are sometimes vast, but come on already...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58">How to beat up an islamic woman</a>

Longer version

Another version

More info

EDIT: fixed first link... I think.

 

[Aimster]

Why is he speaking English?

 

[Narmer]

Did you watch the video?

 

[Martin]

Well, how dare you be so intolerant of their religion? Do you not know that faith is sacred and unquestionable?

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Narmer
Did you watch the video?

I watched many (there's a lot out there), not just the ones I tried to link. Why would you ask a dumb question like that?

So what's going on here? Is it OK to beat the wife? I'm sure most have heard horrible abuse stories and such, and there's people on TV saying it's OK.

But then you have some guy speaking English that says you're only supposed to "tap" the woman with a small piece of wood. But this is considered the last resort... which sounds pretty dumb. Why would you have great big arguments, sleep separately, and then finally as a last resort go up to her and "tap" her on the shoulder with a small piece of wood... as if that would do anything. It doesn't make sense.

 

[magomago]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh did you read it cwjerome? While I rarely agree with you, you always are atleast well read...or in this case well watched.


Did you watch this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvuVEUoSeRk

This is the direct link you posted

Originally posted by: Martin
Well, how dare you be so intolerant of their religion? Do you not know that faith is sacred and unquestionable?

You should probably watch the link he posted first...

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Narmer
Did you watch the video?

I watched many (there's a lot out there), not just the ones I tried to link. Why would you ask a dumb question like that?

So what's going on here? Is it OK to beat the wife? I'm sure most have heard horrible abuse stories and such, and there's people on TV saying it's OK.

But then you have some guy speaking English that says you're only supposed to "tap" the woman with a small piece of wood. But this is considered the last resort... which sounds pretty dumb. Why would you have great big arguments, sleep separately, and then finally as a last resort go up to her and "tap" her on the shoulder with a small piece of wood... as if that would do anything. It doesn't make sense.

Maybe it is the point that serious violence towards the spouse should never be tolerated. And the "tolerated" level is soo minute that its essentially pointless.

I've never heard of anyone saying it is okay to beat a wife.

You are reaching for straws here cwjerome...

 

[Aimster]

This shouldn't be linked to Islam ...

In Saudi Arabia women wear towels over their face and they only show their eyes. They also do not drive and basically have no political roles except for being the wife of a king or a prince.
They can't even walk without being escorted by a male.

I have no problem with a headscarf... but whenever I see a Saudi woman covering everything but her eyes I am just like W T F.

 

[magomago]

I watched the first link (suprisingly I usually struggle with non Iraqi Dialects, but this wasn't an issue...how nice 😉 ) as well - the version in arabic.

I don't see what the issue is.

He made forth the following points:

a) Islam essentially says don't tolerate beating towards women.
b) But it'll accept a "minute" level of it...how minute?
Looking at the hadith (which are noted to not be a bastion of accuracy) you have stuff saying at MOST 10 hits, using a tiny object, a "Tooth brush" thing, light taps. What is the point? If you are going to beat - its going to be an exercise in futility...ie: pointless. So those who insist on beating their wives (who themselves probably have issues) Islam is basically thumbing the nose saying "You can do it...providing its this" (note: the provisions themselves seem to be part of the hadith and not the actual Quran ,but even for the hadith its surprisingly liberal)

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Aimster
This shouldn't be linked to Islam ...

In Saudi Arabia women wear towels over their face and they only show their eyes. They also do not drive and basically have no political roles except for being the wife of a king or a prince.
They can't even walk without being escorted by a male.

I have no problem with a headscarf... but whenever I see a Saudi woman covering everything but her eyes I am just like W T F.

What if she wants to? While I wouldn't be suprised if many would cast away the Niqab in Saudi Arabia - if you see one in America, there is a much higher chance it is of their own accord.

Anyways - using "Saudi Anything" as a basis for what Islam is...makes little to no sense...

 

[palehorse]

Sheikh Yusuf Estes weirds me out... every time I see him, I feel like I'm watching a Saturday Night Live skit!

AFAIC, the only excuse to ever hit a woman is self-defense, or in stopping a violent crime from being committed by said woman.

Any religion that states, or even implies, otherwise, is FLAWED and SICK. period.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Sheikh Yusuf Estes weirds me out... every time I see him, I feel like I'm watching a Saturday Night Live skit!

AFAIC, the only excuse to ever hit a woman is self-defense, or in stopping a violent crime from being committed by said woman.

Any religion that states, or even implies, otherwise, is FLAWED and SICK. period.

:thumbsup:

and yes...Yusuf Estes has such a weird disposition...but like you said, it keeps us entertained and interested 😉

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Narmer
Did you watch the video?

I watched many (there's a lot out there), not just the ones I tried to link. Why would you ask a dumb question like that?

So what's going on here? Is it OK to beat the wife? I'm sure most have heard horrible abuse stories and such, and there's people on TV saying it's OK.

But then you have some guy speaking English that says you're only supposed to "tap" the woman with a small piece of wood. But this is considered the last resort... which sounds pretty dumb. Why would you have great big arguments, sleep separately, and then finally as a last resort go up to her and "tap" her on the shoulder with a small piece of wood... as if that would do anything. It doesn't make sense.

Maybe it is the point that serious violence towards the spouse should never be tolerated. And the "tolerated" level is soo minute that its essentially pointless.

I've never heard of anyone saying it is okay to beat a wife.

You are reaching for straws here cwjerome...

I'm not reaching for straws... this stuff is on TV over there. This kind of crap has to be exposed and it has to motivate people to face the hard issues. The only way to defeat the radicalism and get any meaningful reforms started is to challenge stuff like this and move forward.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Narmer
Did you watch the video?

I watched many (there's a lot out there), not just the ones I tried to link. Why would you ask a dumb question like that?

So what's going on here? Is it OK to beat the wife? I'm sure most have heard horrible abuse stories and such, and there's people on TV saying it's OK.

But then you have some guy speaking English that says you're only supposed to "tap" the woman with a small piece of wood. But this is considered the last resort... which sounds pretty dumb. Why would you have great big arguments, sleep separately, and then finally as a last resort go up to her and "tap" her on the shoulder with a small piece of wood... as if that would do anything. It doesn't make sense.

Maybe it is the point that serious violence towards the spouse should never be tolerated. And the "tolerated" level is soo minute that its essentially pointless.

I've never heard of anyone saying it is okay to beat a wife.

You are reaching for straws here cwjerome...

I'm not reaching for straws... this stuff is on TV over there. This kind of crap has to be exposed and it has to motivate people to face the hard issues. The only way to defeat the radicalism and get any meaningful reforms started is to challenge stuff like this and move forward.

How the hell is this radicalism??!?!

Its CLEARLY implied and stated that wife beating is NOT an accepted standard. Both guys got that point across. And if one DOES have to - guess what - have fun with your "tooth brush"....

I have NO idea how else you could be reading this...if these guys were actually advocating beating a wife, I would be along yourside calling them out...but they aren't

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Sheikh Yusuf Estes weirds me out... every time I see him, I feel like I'm watching a Saturday Night Live skit!

AFAIC, the only excuse to ever hit a woman is self-defense, or in stopping a violent crime from being committed by said woman.

Any religion that states, or even implies, otherwise, is FLAWED and SICK. period.

I take it you're not a fan of most Western religions then? Because most of them seem to have a pretty medieval attitude towards women, even if some of the modern adherents have managed to studiously ignore that particular facet of their faith.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Sheikh Yusuf Estes weirds me out... every time I see him, I feel like I'm watching a Saturday Night Live skit!

AFAIC, the only excuse to ever hit a woman is self-defense, or in stopping a violent crime from being committed by said woman.

Any religion that states, or even implies, otherwise, is FLAWED and SICK. period.

I take it you're not a fan of most Western religions then? Because most of them seem to have a pretty medieval attitude towards women, even if some of the modern adherents have managed to studiously ignore that particular facet of their faith.

Very true, women in Islam have more rights then they could ever dream of in western religions, yet I don't see a single person talking about that.
I don't know of a religion that in it's holy book talks in detail what a women's rights are when it comes to finance, inheritance, work, house affairs, politics, legal matter ...etc Feel free to read for yourselves.

And as when it comes to beating your wife, I think this guy nailed it.
And no I don't think it's a futile exercise NOTHING in the Quran is futile, it's a last resort when IMHO all communication fails on the woman's sidde, and you know between you and God that she won't listen to you otherwise when she is truly doing the wrong thing under religious ruling!
The man in the video says that some scientists even advocated that instead of using something as small as a meswak/toothbrush a man can poke the woman with his fist. It's dead obvious that the purpose is not to inflict physical damage but it's to get the attention of the woman to the magnitude of her mistake.

Even in our western societies like here in the states, a man just can't be arrested for lightly poking his wife with his fist! If it doesn't inflict significant pain, bruise or cause any type of injury then it doesn't really fit the legal definition of violence.

KEEP IN MIND every Muslim's top example is prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and in no historical reference that I have come across does Mohammad (PBUH) advocate nor implements wife beating.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Why is he speaking English?

LOL, that is Yusuf Estes , very knowledgeable man, get this, he used to be a Cristian Minister from Texas.
He was trying his best to convert a Muslim he had business encounter with, ended up converting his family to Islam instead, you gotta love the irony in it.

He has funny story about how he converted to Islam: Video

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
I don't know of a religion that in it's holy book talks in detail what a women's rights are when it comes to finance, inheritance, work, house affairs, politics, legal matter ...etc Feel free to read for yourselves.

How pathetic. Why should a religion be necessary to tell us what the "rights" of a woman are? :roll:

And while Mohammed may not advocate wife beating, it is clear that a lot of Clerics do. Or at the very least sanction and condone it, which is no better.

The "religion of peace" has lots of problems indeed.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
I don't know of a religion that in it's holy book talks in detail what a women's rights are when it comes to finance, inheritance, work, house affairs, politics, legal matter ...etc Feel free to read for yourselves.

How pathetic. Why should a religion be necessary to tell us what the "rights" of a woman are? :roll:

How is that pathetic? And if it's so damn obvious then please explain women's suffrage in the western world from the days of the Greeks till the 1900s? Explain why here in the United States it wasn't until June 1919 that Congress passed the women's voting rights bill?

And while Mohammed may not advocate wife beating, it is clear that a lot of Clerics do. Or at the very least sanction and condone it, which is no better.

If you are against the prophet's teachings you are not really a Muslims cleric. What everyone is pretty much saying is what I am saying in my post above, which is that the beatings are not for inflicting pain, but it's for communicational reasons. See my post above for my full perspective.

The "religion of peace" has lots of problems indeed.

Oh really? From what point of view / authority is that may I ask?

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
I don't know of a religion that in it's holy book talks in detail what a women's rights are when it comes to finance, inheritance, work, house affairs, politics, legal matter ...etc Feel free to read for yourselves.

How pathetic. Why should a religion be necessary to tell us what the "rights" of a woman are? :roll:

How is that pathetic? And if it's so damn obvious then please explain women's suffrage in the western world from the days of the Greeks till the 1900s? Explain why here in the United States it wasn't until June 1919 that Congress passed the women's voting rights bill?

And while Mohammed may not advocate wife beating, it is clear that a lot of Clerics do. Or at the very least sanction and condone it, which is no better.

If you are against the prophet's teachings you are not really a Muslims cleric. What everyone is pretty much saying is what I am saying in my post above, which is that the beatings are not for inflicting pain, but it's for communicational reasons. See my post above for my full perspective.

The "religion of peace" has lots of problems indeed.

Oh really? From what point of view / authority is that may I ask?

Try communicating that way in the United States and see how fast you can be arrested and a restraining order be placed against you.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
I don't know of a religion that in it's holy book talks in detail what a women's rights are when it comes to finance, inheritance, work, house affairs, politics, legal matter ...etc Feel free to read for yourselves.

How pathetic. Why should a religion be necessary to tell us what the "rights" of a woman are? :roll:

How is that pathetic? And if it's so damn obvious then please explain women's suffrage in the western world from the days of the Greeks till the 1900s? Explain why here in the United States it wasn't until June 1919 that Congress passed the women's voting rights bill?

And while Mohammed may not advocate wife beating, it is clear that a lot of Clerics do. Or at the very least sanction and condone it, which is no better.

If you are against the prophet's teachings you are not really a Muslims cleric. What everyone is pretty much saying is what I am saying in my post above, which is that the beatings are not for inflicting pain, but it's for communicational reasons. See my post above for my full perspective.

The "religion of peace" has lots of problems indeed.

Oh really? From what point of view / authority is that may I ask?

Don't pay attention to Pabster, he doesn't understand that these scriptures were written over 1400 years ago when Western women were wholly owned by their husbands. The fact that the last of the Prophets (PBUH) went out of his way to define the rights of women was revolutionary at the time.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
If you are against the prophet's teachings you are not really a Muslims cleric. What everyone is pretty much saying is what I am saying in my post above, which is that the beatings are not for inflicting pain, but it's for communicational reasons. See my post above for my full perspective.

This has to be one of the dumbest, most reaching posts I've ever read in this forum.

Don't try to justify the Koran's very straightforward allowance of violence towards women. It is wrong to do so, and that is that. Even a "tap" to get the message across (one wonders what message that is) is absolutely unacceptable.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
If you are against the prophet's teachings you are not really a Muslims cleric. What everyone is pretty much saying is what I am saying in my post above, which is that the beatings are not for inflicting pain, but it's for communicational reasons. See my post above for my full perspective.

This has to be one of the dumbest, most reaching posts I've ever read in this forum.

Don't try to justify the Koran's very straightforward allowance of violence towards women. It is wrong to do so, and that is that. Even a "tap" to get the message across (one wonders what message that is) is absolutely unacceptable.

Spare us the elitest, politically correct bullshit. Perhaps you should turn your sights to the verses in the old testament that on how they homosexuals and other vagrants should be treated. Or how about the one on adulterers, or children, or those who go against their god?

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
If you are against the prophet's teachings you are not really a Muslims cleric. What everyone is pretty much saying is what I am saying in my post above, which is that the beatings are not for inflicting pain, but it's for communicational reasons. See my post above for my full perspective.

This has to be one of the dumbest, most reaching posts I've ever read in this forum.

Don't try to justify the Koran's very straightforward allowance of violence towards women. It is wrong to do so, and that is that. Even a "tap" to get the message across (one wonders what message that is) is absolutely unacceptable.

Keep your opinion to yourself if you are not going to read the whole thread, I am saving my keyboard some wear and reposting what I already did :

And as when it comes to beating your wife, I think this guy nailed it.
And no I don't think it's a futile exercise NOTHING in the Quran is futile, it's a last resort when IMHO all communication fails on the woman's sidde, and you know between you and God that she won't listen to you otherwise when she is truly doing the wrong thing under religious ruling!
The man in the video says that some scientists even advocated that instead of using something as small as a meswak/toothbrush a man can poke the woman with his fist. It's dead obvious that the purpose is not to inflict physical damage but it's to get the attention of the woman to the magnitude of her mistake.

Even in our western societies like here in the states, a man just can't be arrested for lightly poking his wife with his fist! If it doesn't inflict significant pain, bruise or cause any type of injury then it doesn't really fit the legal definition of violence.

KEEP IN MIND every Muslim's top example is prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and in no historical reference that I have come across does Mohammad (PBUH) advocate nor implements wife beating.

For a time when Western Women where considered as low as animals and being burned at steaks for "Witchcraft" and crap that is indeed fscking revolutionary.
God help us had Mohammad actually advocated wife beatings OR anyone besides hard line clerics!
You are full of it!

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
If you are against the prophet's teachings you are not really a Muslims cleric. What everyone is pretty much saying is what I am saying in my post above, which is that the beatings are not for inflicting pain, but it's for communicational reasons. See my post above for my full perspective.

This has to be one of the dumbest, most reaching posts I've ever read in this forum.

Don't try to justify the Koran's very straightforward allowance of violence towards women. It is wrong to do so, and that is that. Even a "tap" to get the message across (one wonders what message that is) is absolutely unacceptable.

Keep your opinion to yourself if you are not going to read the whole thread, I am saving my keyboard some wear and reposting what I already did.

I read it, and it's still a load of bull.

Islam is wrong to justify violence against women, even "metaphorically". Spin all you'd like, people will see straight through it.