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The Muslim Dr. Phil?
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I'm having trouble trying to see the justification. AFAIC, it doesn't condone it at all. If it doesn't- its about as much as the "Go get a second wife...if you can stay within these criteria....which you can't - so don't bother 😀 "
That doesn't prevent MANY people in the past from still engaging in that because the cultures around them still accepted it. People, imo, seem to make the best examples of hypocrites (note: I'm not excusing myself 😉 )
While I don't like discussing how one religion is "superior" to another since I all believe that most religions originated from God and its simply a circle jerk - I believe he was directly comparing portions of the Bible to the Quran. I honestly don't have (perhaps 1prophet can comment on this?) enough of an education in the Bible to analyze anything, but the Quran makes it clear over and over that man and woman are equals. Whether it is through the fact that "both" eat from the tree, "both" are immediately forgiven, etc etc.
For its time, and even for a reading today - it emphasizes this equality often. (Of course as a quick note, IMO, equals doesn't imply that if one can do something - the other easily can. In terms of birth, there is no way a man is equal with a woman. And there are still physiological differences - men don't have to "Rest" every few weeks for a period, etc. But looking outside a physical boundry - they'd be pretty dayum equal)
Good point - and not that I'm disagreeing with you , but domestic violence towards women is a HUGE issue. And I wouldn't be suprsied to find various levels of "Christians" who engage in this - but that doesn't mean one goes and erroneously states the Bible is all for this.
boomerang
Lifer
My stepson was stationed in Bahrain for a year. He'd tell us that on the weekend (BTW their weekend encompasses different days than ours) the Saudi women would come over to Bahrain and wear western clothes, drive and carry on worse than western women. Drinking and carrying on and so forth.
There is a lot of hypocrisy over there.
As long as there's people like Narmer and Darkthinker, modern Islam will get a pass for being so regressive, and conflict and strife will continue. When I made the topic I'm not caring about what certain prophets said or what certain books said or comparing certain religions... I care about how a lot of people practice a religion today, and the problems it brings with modern civilization.
Someday, when those like the two stated above stop defending the indefensible, there'll be change for the better and less hostility.
Someday, when those like the two stated above stop defending the indefensible, there'll be change for the better and less hostility.
And as long as there's people like you around, "modern Islam" will be crammed into some little stereotypical box to fit a political agenda. Violence against women is a HUGE problem in our society as well, yet I don't hear anyone saying it's a problem with "modern Christianity". It is (correctly) viewed as a problem involving those people who hit their wives. Yet when it comes to Islam, you idiots are falling all over each other to cast it as a problem for the entire religion and everyone who practices that religion. Let's control for culture, and survey a sample of American Muslims and American Christians and see which groups has more domestic violence. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't make any wagers on the outcome of that study.
The problem that no one seems to understand is that trying to come to some judgement, either way, about an entire religion practiced by hundreds of millions of people is STUPID. The conflict should be with the people who do bad things, regardless of what religion they say they are. Trying to frame it as a judgement of Islam is just dumb, and counter-productive if you agree that the ideal solution is to get rid of the idiots.
DarkThinker
Platinum Member
DUDE HOLY CRAP!!
Let's review what happened here:
1- I do not condone violence against women nor advocate it in any way shape or form, neither does my religion if you truly watched your own videos you would have known better.
2- Saudi Arabia is one of the most hardcore extremist countries on the planet (which is filled to the brim with hypocrites who say something in Saudi Arabia and do something else elsewhere), few countries in the ME and the Muslim world can even be compared to it. Just visit my country for 3 days and you'll see what I am talking about.
3- If by this categorization Islam is violent, then God help the Christians of this country, oh I forgot they are the majority so they can claim that their religion is peaceful and get away with it I guess like what is happening in here.
4- I am a Muslim regressive extremist? Dude fck that you know what you are saying is bullshit, you have no proof to back it up and I dare you to bring just one post that would show me as being of such a nature.
Let's face it, you created this thread not to inform and not to dialog, you hate the fact that what you thought was the jackpot to lash against the Muslim members of this forum, turned out to be much simpler than you ever thought it was and now you are disappointed that you and your lackeys didn't score. Well in the word's of Coca Cola's lids "Better luck next time!"
There's nothing wrong with what I'm saying, you're just being a big baby. Suck it up. We talk about "America" or "Europe" or "Blacks" or "Whites" or "Christians" or "Muslims." All of those have problems. We talk about large entities or groups when we want to make generalizations or look at the bigger picture or look at a problem within that construct. Quit being so anal retentive and please, please stop the mock victimization.
Modern Islam, especially in the Middle East, has serious problems with a great many civilized norms. It's an ugly fact you want to evade, make excuses for, and twist into an argument about evil political agendas. It's like you'd rather have conflict and wars instead of reasonable reform. Because despite what you say, there is a problem with the religion as it's practiced by tens of millions of people.
The dominant cultures in the Middle East are fundamentally attached to Islam. Islam needs needed reform. Quit being a politically correct apologist. It may be trendy to pretend this FACT should be ignored because "we have our own problems" but it's a stupid trend nonetheless. Make a thread on our own problems. There's already lots of them. I participate in them. So spare me the "glass houses" drama.
Wow, that's certainly an impressive list of liberal stereotypes you've managed to cram in there, so I'll offer a conservative stereotype for you. I don't think you have an evil political agenda, I think you're just being stupid. My point is extremely straight forward, and while I don't think you're any danger to the local Mensa membership, I think you're smart enough to get it...if you weren't so blinded by political angst and attempting to cram me into some ridiculous stereotype because that makes your argument easier.
Despite what you might think, "Americans", "Europeans", "Blacks", "Whites", "Christians" and "Muslims" don't do anything. They don't have conflicts and they don't have problems. They are huge groups of individuals with a lot of differences between them, so much so that attempting to categorize them by such broad labels is a waste of time. Individuals who may BE black, white, European, American, Christian or Muslim might have problems...and I'm saying we deal with those problems in whatever way possible. But I'm also saying that those problems are problems of individuals or particular groups, not problems with hugely broad cultural divisions.
You dismiss this as being brainlessly PC, probably because doing so is a reflex for folks on the right, but what I'm saying has nothing to do with being politically correct, it's just common sense. If we define a problem as a "Muslim" problem, that diffuses our responsibility to actually go after the individuals who have the problem. It means that Muslim terrorism is as much the responsibility of the Muslim mechanic at my local auto repair shop as it is the responsibility of Osama bin Laden. And, more importantly, that intelligently dealing with the problem of Muslim terrorism means we need to "deal" with the Muslim mechanic just as much as we need to deal with Osama bin Laden. Now call me crazy, but that doesn't seem like a good approach to me.
Personally I think the problem here is being too "anti-PC". Conservatives have it so ingrained that certain cultures or skin colors or religions or whatever are so inherently inferior that you can't accept a solution to a problem WITHOUT treating it as primarily a problem with one of those traits. I don't know if it's a reaction to overly PC feelings on the other side or what, but it's not smart and it's not a good approach. And while I don't endorse the idea that being PC for the sake of being PC is the best solution to all problems, I also think this reflexive reaction of being anti-PC just for the sake of being anti-PC is a poor solution.
I think the best approach to terrorism is to figure out who's doing it, and then find them and arrest them if possible, and shoot them in the head if that proves too difficult. Entering religion or skin color or favorite genre of movie into the picture is pointless, and strikes me as just a feeble excuse to persue a political agenda.
This is a discussion we've had probably a hundred times, in various threads. The argument is really the same here; The problem with Islam is that the vast majority (roughly 80%) who stick to the Quran and its principles are not speaking out against, denouncing, and condemning the radical extremist sect which is perverting Islam to their twisted goals. At this point, the question becomes why? Do the majority support this perversion by their silence? Every religion has a faithful group of extremist nutjobs. No question about it. But Islam seems to have a frighteningly large (estimates I've seen say 20% or thereabout) radical extremist fringe.
And let me end by saying what I've said from day one here. All religions are cults, period. You can look back at the various conflicts and wars through generations and - almost always - religion is at the center of the problem. Islam perhaps more so as that entire region has been locked in religious conflict for centuries.
Why do you keep focusing on Islam? You act as if all muslims have this disease or something? Simple question, how many people have muslims killed within the past 100 years? What's the number for Christians? Now, whichever one has a bigger kill count, isn't that the one with the issue?
I have no problem with doing that, but that's not what you're doing. If "being Muslim" is the primary motivator, it's a pretty poor one, given how few Muslims are actually terrorists. Personally I think there are a lot more specific beliefs and behaviors that are being ignored in favor of this crusade against Islam.
Cliffs: repeated same thing; added extra insults.
For whatever reason that I'm not even going to try and figure out, you cannot seem to grasp the big picture. You want to run around and arrest or shoot those people that do certain things while having a tantrum with the notion that we look into cultural reasons the behaviors exist. That's why I call you PC, because in my mind, people who call ideas, concepts, principles, and beliefs off-limits to debate are being politically correct. In other words, moral cowards.
OMG it's a religion!!!
Who f-in cares?
Well since we have this discussion all the time, just how exactly is this supposed to work? How do average people "speak out" against something in a way that reaches such a wide audience? For that matter, why is this their responsibility?
I think you are confusing correlation with causation. Religion may be at the center of a lot of conflicts, but it's not the cause, it's the excuse. And it's a good one, which might explain it's long popularity, but the problem is the people behind the conflict. If religion didn't work, they would use (and have used) something else. I see no evidence that religion takes otherwise perfectly normal people and turns them into violent lunatics, I just think violent lunatics tend to gravitate to certain aspects of religion.
Your cult example proves this perfectly. All the crazy cults out there seem to attract a lot of people, but I'd argue that those people weren't perfectly normal before they joined the cult...I'd say most of them were screwed up for some other reason, which is why the cult appealed to them. Fighting one particular attractor for the crazy people doesn't seem helpful. Even if you can change or eradicate it, the lunatics will just move on to the next thing.
Well, I can see that you implicitely admitted to Christians killing many more people within the last 100 years. Well then, why don't you focus on your problem? George Bush, the hypocritical Christian leader, is killing scores of Muslims on Muslim land. That is fuelling the problem you want to discuss here. Why don't you do something about it?
yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
I'm probably the fiercest person on these forums when it comes to correcting mistranslated quotations from the Koran. What verse 4-34 says, I've found, is entirely accurate:
And finally, the Koran sitting on my bookshelf says "scourge them".
This is something I consider entirely unacceptable in a religion. I draw no comparison to Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism... I don't care about what's better or what's worse. Taken on its own - an absolutely unacceptable statement. I am disgusted by the people who would spin this into pretending that means something other than it very clearly does.
Simply: Yes, you are allowed to beat your wife by the principles of Islam. First speak to them, then send them away, but if those measures fail, according to the Koran you are allowed to lay a hand on your wife.
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