The Mueller interview notes

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
25,590
10,288
136
No.
The linked article is well written, and well thought out. It also contains a great deal of speculation and supposition. At the end of the day, there wasn't enough evidence produced to merit impeachment. That's the bottom line. Your opinion is that Bob's report proves collusion on the part of the president, yet the democratic controlled congress didn't find it compelling enough to impeach. Your wishful thinking isn't my reality.
You're very welcome to your opinion, but mine is in line with the findings of congress. He wasn't impeached because they didn't have any evidence.

Here’s some more of the evidence they supposedly didn’t have from Gates’ testimony:


Gates described the RNC as energized by the [stolen DNC] emails and said that though Trump and Kushner were initially skeptical about cooperating with the RNC [in 2016], “the WikiLeaks issue was a turning point,” the FBI notes show. WikiLeaks was the website that published the stolen emails in the weeks before the election.

The campaign was also very pleased by the releases, though Trump was advised not to react to it but rather to let it all play out, according to the interview summaries.

The RNC would put out press releases to amplify the emails’ release, Gates told the FBI. “The RNC also indicated they knew the timing of the upcoming releases,” though Gates didn’t specify who at the RNC had that information. “Gates said the only non-public information the RNC had was related to the timing of the releases.”



It wasn’t just the campaign... the fucking RNC knew when Guccifer/WikiLeaks were publishing email dumps and prepared PR ahead of time.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,376
33,027
136
No.
The linked article is well written, and well thought out. It also contains a great deal of speculation and supposition. At the end of the day, there wasn't enough evidence produced to merit impeachment. That's the bottom line. Your opinion is that Bob's report proves collusion on the part of the president, yet the democratic controlled congress didn't find it compelling enough to impeach. Your wishful thinking isn't my reality.
You're very welcome to your opinion, but mine is in line with the findings of congress. He wasn't impeached because they didn't have any evidence.
Again, the WH has blocked Congress from seeing all the evidence so your claim that Congress didn't find it compelling enough to impeach is a blatant lie.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,987
55,398
136
No.
The linked article is well written, and well thought out. It also contains a great deal of speculation and supposition. At the end of the day, there wasn't enough evidence produced to merit impeachment. That's the bottom line.

You’re flip flopping back and forth between ‘insufficient evidence’ and ‘no evidence’.

It’s also abundantly obvious that the amount of evidence is only part of the reason not to impeach Trump as they have enough evidence from Mueller to criminally nail Trump on probably around half a dozen felonies on obstruction of justice alone.

Your opinion is that Bob's report proves collusion on the part of the president, yet the democratic controlled congress didn't find it compelling enough to impeach. Your wishful thinking isn't my reality.

Annnnd now comes the goalpost moving. I never said the report PROVES collusion, I said your repeated statements that it contained no evidence of collusion were obviously false to anyone who read the report.

You're very welcome to your opinion, but mine is in line with the findings of congress. He wasn't impeached because they didn't have any evidence.

You just made this up and of course they had evidence. You were just linked to reams of it. You really need to stop saying blatantly false things.

I’ll give you the same challenge I gave Starbuck though. If there’s no evidence of collusion then explain how Trump’s son, son in law, and campaign manager meeting with agents of the Russian government to get dirt on his opponent as ‘part of the Russian government’s support for Trump’ is not evidence of collusion. I’ll be very interested to hear your response (or admission you were wrong, either way.)
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,987
55,398
136
It would also be interesting to know why if it wasn’t evidence of collusion why they were caught lying about the purpose of the meeting over and over again at Trump’s personal direction.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
21,049
16,292
136
It would also be interesting to know why if it wasn’t evidence of collusion why they were caught lying about the purpose of the meeting over and over again at Trump’s personal direction.

The mark of a good businessman is taking every chance to... practice lying? Not about anything important of course like personal gain and the like.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,987
55,398
136
Yes, but not when the same report details directed efforts at obstructing the investigation into uncovering that evidence.

It's pretty weird that people are seriously trying to argue that Trump should be presumed innocent based on a report that while saying it found insufficient evidence to charge more crimes, details Trump and his associates' commission of multiple felonies for the express purpose of preventing the investigators from uncovering evidence.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,637
136
Please. It's about how thoroughly Barr & the GOP have continued to obstruct & to gaslight the public. The whole thing shifted into a fight in the judiciary that may not be unraveled until after the election. That's quite by design on the part of Barr. He's fighting for time.

None of that applies to the Ukraine affair, which is what Dems are pursuing. The evidence is plain & compelling, something that even low information voters can readily wrap their heads around. It's what the upcoming writ of impeachment will be all about.
What you say isn't wrong, but that didn't prevent the House from impeaching Trump. Even what was released in the public report was clearly enough for impeachment. There were even members of the house that supported pursuing impeachment at the time. As republicans showed with Clinton, you don't need actual criminal activity to impeach a president. This is why I still maintain in the end, the Litmus for impeachment is public support. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, particularly if you have a rational population. The problem today is that Trump's base is so irrational at this point that Trump could literally shoot an innocent person and Trump's base wouldn't care. This wouldn't be a huge problem if his base didn't constitute nearly 40% of the population.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,987
55,398
136
What you say isn't wrong, but that didn't prevent the House from impeaching Trump. Even what was released in the public report was clearly enough for impeachment. There were even members of the house that supported pursuing impeachment at the time. As republicans showed with Clinton, you don't need actual criminal activity to impeach a president. This is why I still maintain in the end, the Litmus for impeachment is public support. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, particularly if you have a rational population. The problem today is that Trump's base is so irrational at this point that Trump could literally shoot an innocent person and Trump's base wouldn't care. This wouldn't be a huge problem if his base didn't constitute nearly 40% of the population.

Exactly, this is why saying that because Trump wasn’t impeached there wasn’t sufficient evidence is nonsense.

A quick google search will show that the report details how Trump met all the elements to be indicted on multiple felony counts, counts I hope os he actually indicted on after he is out of office.

I think the difference with Ukraine is first that the narrative is simpler and it’s pretty easy to explain Trump’s corruption. Second though, I think in a way Trump forced the Democrats’ hands. Before the narrative was that we can just get him out with the 2020 election but Ukraine shows he’s actively trying to use his powers of office to rig the election in his favor. It’s too dangerous to let that slide.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,867
10,325
136
Mueller had a job, powers to do it, and the opportunity to make himself matter. If he let the chance slip by it wasn't because he "couldn't do anything". He was Ok with sliding into the muck to maintain his comfort and privacy.

Plenty of people who were watching Mueller decline to interview Trump and saying wtf. If Mueller had forced Trump to testify, Trump would either have lied his ass off, claimed to not remember anything, or pleaded the 5th all of the way through. In the first instance, Mueller could have added perjury to obstruction of justice and that would have simply amounted to an "add on crime". Also...There's probably no way on earth that Mueller could possibly have gotten Trump to testify other than taking it to The Supremes.

Mueller's one shot to get Trump was to flip Paul Manafort. The instant that fell through, Mueller called it a day and stopped fighting for the sit-down with Trump. If there was something more that he could have done to get Manafort to flip, I don't know. Probably nothing legal.

Mueller could have done more to stand up for the rule of law. His silence gives comfort to those asserting that a president is above the law. I can't agree with the proposition that Mueller's undoubted courage as a Marine confers immunity from being criticized for his choices. Mueller had a chance and he blew it. Perhaps his Republican loyalty outweighed his patriotism.

The fundamental concept of a governmental representative is that it is a person whom the people know well enough and respect well enough that they are willing to delegate control of their country or region to that person. Giving that sort of power and control to someone who is not trustworthy would be stupid, after all.

The fundamental issue of our political issues today is not that we're using the electoral college instead of the popular vote or that we haven't found the right criteria for a head impeachment investigator, it's that we're not electing people who are trustworthy. We should be able to trust that our representatives in government will, of their own, impeach a corrupt President.

For many decades we have not had the luxury of assuming that a presidential candidate will be honest and honorable. So we need a comprehensive set of requirements that all future presidents must meet - including being subject to full investigation of crimes during their terms, with possible prosecution either before they leave office - or following their leaving office, unprotected by any statutes of limitations.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,359
4,640
136
The House did not impeach Trump over this (yet) because all the principle actors are all Trump's inner circle. There would be basically no willing testimony, the House would have to compel every witness to appear, and practically all the documents would have to come from the DOJ, and as we have seen this week, the Trump Administration has been very effective at obstructing unwilling testimony and not delivering documents. They are working on getting the Courts to compel the cooperation, but it is a long term project that might take years. I expect we will see investigations on this eventually, but it might not be until after Trump is out of office.

The difference between that and the Ukraine scandal is that in the Ukraine scandal there are willing testimony that they can get on record, so there is something they are capable of investigating.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,987
55,398
136
Mueller had a job, powers to do it, and the opportunity to make himself matter. If he let the chance slip by it wasn't because he "couldn't do anything". He was Ok with sliding into the muck to maintain his comfort and privacy.

Plenty of people who were watching Mueller decline to interview Trump and saying wtf. If Mueller had forced Trump to testify, Trump would either have lied his ass off, claimed to not remember anything, or pleaded the 5th all of the way through. In the first instance, Mueller could have added perjury to obstruction of justice and that would have simply amounted to an "add on crime". Also...There's probably no way on earth that Mueller could possibly have gotten Trump to testify other than taking it to The Supremes.

Mueller's one shot to get Trump was to flip Paul Manafort. The instant that fell through, Mueller called it a day and stopped fighting for the sit-down with Trump. If there was something more that he could have done to get Manafort to flip, I don't know. Probably nothing legal.

Mueller could have done more to stand up for the rule of law. His silence gives comfort to those asserting that a president is above the law. I can't agree with the proposition that Mueller's undoubted courage as a Marine confers immunity from being criticized for his choices. Mueller had a chance and he blew it. Perhaps his Republican loyalty outweighed his patriotism.

The fundamental concept of a governmental representative is that it is a person whom the people know well enough and respect well enough that they are willing to delegate control of their country or region to that person. Giving that sort of power and control to someone who is not trustworthy would be stupid, after all.

The fundamental issue of our political issues today is not that we're using the electoral college instead of the popular vote or that we haven't found the right criteria for a head impeachment investigator, it's that we're not electing people who are trustworthy. We should be able to trust that our representatives in government will, of their own, impeach a corrupt President.

For many decades we have not had the luxury of assuming that a presidential candidate will be honest and honorable. So we need a comprehensive set of requirements that all future presidents must meet - including being subject to full investigation of crimes during their terms, with possible prosecution either before they leave office - or following their leaving office, unprotected by any statutes of limitations.

It was odd to see Mueller acknowledge that Trump was lying to him in his written answers to questions (a crime!) but then decide not to pursue it.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,129
12,333
136
Again, the WH has blocked Congress from seeing all the evidence so your claim that Congress didn't find it compelling enough to impeach is a blatant lie.
Fortunately, that is changing at this very moment. Mueller investigation grand jury testimony was released last week to the Intelligence committee, and transcripts from the FBI interviews were released yesterday. The shit is going to come out finally!
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,389
16,670
146
It was odd to see Mueller acknowledge that Trump was lying to him in his written answers to questions (a crime!) but then decide not to pursue it.
'odd' is a weird word here, I'd say 'expected' is more appropriate. He stated repeatedly that it's the OLC's opinion that a sitting president cannot be indicted, and he wasn't looking to challenge that. No idea where anyone is getting this 'Mueller failed to indict' weirdness.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,987
55,398
136
'odd' is a weird word here, I'd say 'expected' is more appropriate. He stated repeatedly that it's the OLC's opinion that a sitting president cannot be indicted, and he wasn't looking to challenge that. No idea where anyone is getting this 'Mueller failed to indict' weirdness.

I don't find it odd that he failed to indict him but Mueller was clearly interested in cataloging evidence of Trump's criminal activity for future use and I'm surprised he gave up on that considering how damning it would be.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,389
16,670
146
I don't find it odd that he failed to indict him but Mueller was clearly interested in cataloging evidence of Trump's criminal activity for future use and I'm surprised he gave up on that considering how damning it would be.
Maybe he didn't. If you can't indict a sitting president there's literally nothing to do with the information except sit on it and/or deliver it to another organization (SDNY). No reason to suspect he won't get arrested for a thousand crimes upon leaving office.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
'odd' is a weird word here, I'd say 'expected' is more appropriate. He stated repeatedly that it's the OLC's opinion that a sitting president cannot be indicted, and he wasn't looking to challenge that. No idea where anyone is getting this 'Mueller failed to indict' weirdness.

It's part of the gaslighting campaign from Barr & Trump sycophants. Barr betrayed his oath to the Constitution to defend Trump & an extremist notion of the Unitary Executive. It's really just that simple.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,389
16,670
146
It's part of the gaslighting campaign from Barr & Trump sycophants. Barr betrayed his oath to the Constitution to defend Trump & an extremist notion of the Unitary Executive. It's really just that simple.
But why am I reading it from non-Republicans?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
But why am I reading it from non-Republicans?

Because they've been gaslighted. Barr went way out his way to cast aspersions on Mueller way back when this all started with stuff like "I don't understand why he didn't make a charging recommendation" & blah, blah, blah. He usurps & obstructs the Constitutional powers of Congress by withholding the underlying evidence they need to properly evaluate the charges of obstruction in the report dutifully created by Mueller.

Mueller hasn't done a damned thing wrong. Barr has & is. He's a disgrace.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,376
33,027
136
Fortunately, that is changing at this very moment. Mueller investigation grand jury testimony was released last week to the Intelligence committee, and transcripts from the FBI interviews were released yesterday. The shit is going to come out finally!
I know some is starting to come out. Just as with his taxes, I'll believe it when I see it.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,867
10,325
136
Meh..You guys can project "gaslighting" and other such nonsense all you want as to why people dare criticize Mueller. Some question what would have happened If someone would have done the things that they are supposed to do, to protect the rule of law. The whole point of having Mueller in that role was to root out the lies, and bring them to light before further crimes or injuries to justice. God forbid we should ever ask someone to rise above himself and his "training".

If Mueller thought Trump guilty of crimes. He could have and should have said so. He could have appeared at the meetings as a private citizen, and not one "constrained" by rules he is accepting to follow.

The ex FBI head is literally investigating the President of serious crimes, and he can't go to Congress and say "Hey, the President is guilty of this and that" when he finds out the President is guilty of this and that? And he cites a memorandum as his justification? If the argument is as to why Mueller pulled his punches is because he's blinded by the rules and procedures (willfully so?) to not see, or even comment on, the overall picture, then he, eventually, was useless except as a compiler of crimes.

IMO Mueller was derelict in not making it crystal clear that Trump should be impeached, and, the events after his testimony do more to corroborate the contention that he could've done more. It was literally what the country was waiting for, he didn't do it, and the President went insane with power the very next day. There comes a time in ones life when protecting and serving the United States means doing more than protecting and serving your institutional norms. His Congressional testimony was one of those times, and Mueller didn't meet it.

Actually, the bottom of page one of the report does conclude:

"Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities."

Do you guys actually believe the bolded? considering what we now know with the Biden/Ukraine situation

/Team Trump
And subsequent events since the Mueller testimony has shown us the Trump people actually have a deep aversion to foreign interference with our government, especially regarding elections. I'm glad that Mueller was able to see through the smoke to, what was it, "not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with..." any foreign government, or otherwise I would be worried about all this Ukraine mess! Now why doesn't Congress investigate Hunter Biden, now that Mueller effectively cleared the Trump team on page 1?
/Team Trump

That a NYC real estate huckster turned carnival pitchman who positioned himself as a master of the deal, who has had 3 decades of dealing, with Russia, a man without any government experience or knowledge, would not "conspire... or coordinate..with the Russians in its election interference activities" even though, as is noted in that very same sentence, "the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts" and the subsequent 400 pages actually proved that very thing page 1 denies?

I am talking about a man at the end of his career making an assertive statement as to whether the President is or is not a criminal, and frankly, as an American citizen, I am not OK that the man punted on that question.