The middle class poorer than the rest of the world in other countries now

[AViking]

Ok I have no idea how to compare the two. Someone else try.

 

[Matt1970]

Ok I have no idea how to compare the two. Someone else try.

Then don't. Sweden has a population of 10 Million. That ain't much bigger than New York City. Do you really think that what gave Sweden what it has is going to work as well when it's applied to a country with 30 times the population?

 

[AViking]

Magic!

No which is why I stopped trying to figure it out. However on a state level it should work. Because we run our country as a republic I don't see why each state can't run a slightly modified version that works for them.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Can't we just blame the leadership? And the lack thereof?

I'm talking the past 16 years or so...

 

[AViking]

How long can we blame the leadership when we keep voting them into power?

Americans need to understand that both parties are the same and are playing the population like fools. Our best bet is to vote for neither.

 

[rudder]

How long can we blame the leadership when we keep voting them into power?

Americans need to understand that both parties are the same and are playing the population like fools. Our best bet is to vote for neither.

Unfortunately you have a simplistic view of how the U.S. political system works. In order for a bill to get to a vote it goes through a committee. This is where many bills are squashed. The dems and the republicans are the ones who assign members of congress to these committees. Committee members then have more power than congressmen who are not in a committee... then they are just a yea/nay vote. And the party that controls the more powerful committees is in a good spot. Of course you can always have a president who just does everything by executive order and all the shenanigans in congress do not matter.

Voting third party would need to be done on a large scale.

 

[AViking]

Yes I understand that. The house has an election every 2 years. So you could theoretically replace the whole house at the next election. The Senate could be replaced in 6 years.

We voted for Obama because of "change". Why can't we do that with Congress? Lets see some real change.

 

[Blackjack200]

I don't want an armed uprising but I can't imagine that's something that we wanted back in the 1770's, the French wanted at the end of the 1800's or the Russians wanted in the beginning of the 1900's. I highly doubt the Arab spring, with all the death and destruction, is what the middle east wanted. It just sparked and happened.

At some point something does need to change. Eventually Americans will catch on that their standard of living has fallen too far behind the rest of the developed world. It's pretty much either that or the rest of the developed world has to come to the same level as the US. Which is it? Are we destined to improve our standard of living or is everyone just going to keep falling? Do you think China, India, and Brazil are aiming to be like the USA or like the rest of the developed world?

Stop. There will not be an armed uprising. I think it's likely that middle and lower class incomes will continue to stagnate or regress for a little while, and then resume growth at a modest rate.

People will simply adjust to the reduced income as they've been doing all along. Living with family, buying cheaper, more fuel efficient cars, taking fewer and more modest vacations, eating cheaper food, etc.

 

[AViking]

While the rest of the developed world takes long vacations, maternity leave, has affordable daycare, universal healthcare, free education, cheap transportation, and so on?

 

[Blackjack200]

While the rest of the developed world takes long vacations, maternity leave, has affordable daycare, universal healthcare, free education, cheap transportation, and so on?

Things have to get pretty shitty before people start doing things that will likely get them killed or thrown in jail for a long time.

 

[AViking]

Ok first off I was just pointing out that historically it hasn't taken that much. It was someone else that brought up armed uprisings. I just don't think it should just be shooed under the rug as something that is impossible. The thing that made the USA great was our historically huge middle class. While the rest of the world was dead broke and recovering from WWII we went on to create a country of enormous wealth and prosperity. We're not so great if we lose that. The middle class is ultra important to preserve.

 

[Blackjack200]

Who's "we"? You live in Sweden. Is that like Stockholm syndrome or something?

Also, my understanding is that the United States has historically been a place of haves and have-nots. The relative equality of the mid 20th century was an aberration. Look at the early 20th century and late 19th century. Go back further than that and substantial parts of the population were owned.

I wouldn't be so sure that Sweden's wealth and equality isn't equally tenuous.

 

[AViking]

Education in the U.S.A. is a mixed bag. Politicians pimped out the "everyone must have a college degree to succeed" mantra for so long. This has created a system of colleges that cater to the common denominator and the degree they issue are worthless. That being said... look at which country has had the most nobel prizes in medicine the last few decades. If you want a top notch education in the U.S. you can get it. Just like the public schools... the education is there, you just have to be proactive and take it.

I went to school in both the US and Europe and I often hear this argument about nobel winners. It's not quite accurate. Of course the USA has a lot of nobel laureates and of course it has great schools and great thinkers. It's a giant country and it should. However the nobel museum is in Stockholm. Sweden has 3x as many nobel laureates as the USA per capita. That's not really my point at all though.

I think our high school system is pretty lousy. It's spitting out some real morons. Everyone should be getting at least a decent education and they're not.

What is your criteria for a great place? I live in Tennessee and besides not having beaches the state is okay. Fiscally the government is responsible and taxes are generally fair across the board. There is some stupid legislation that comes out of the state... but nothing that will destroy the world.

"Okay" does not describe a great place.

I'll leave this as relative. Personally though I would boil it down to a healthy place with respectable wages, great benefits, commutes less than 45 minutes, family oriented, with adequate access to nature within an hour, good education, good healthcare, affordable daycare, 40 weeks of maternity/paternity leave, and that is affordable to live for anyone with a job. It should have plenty of museums, arts, parks, movie theaters, restaurants, cafes, universities, sports, airports, train stations, and so on. It should have several industries that can supply a healthy amount of employment. A place with good weather, not too many bugs, and an open minded and tolerant atmosphere as far as social issues.

 

[Franz316]

A large portion of society must lose hope for a better future before any sort of 'uprising' can take place. Once person has a feeling of having nothing to lose, then things can start to happen. Right now, I think there is a still a shred of hope that things could improve.

Mix that with a culture of apathy and a populace which is mentally/physically exhausted, who must face off against an ambiguous, nebulous enemy and you don't get the recipe for change. I'd say the establishment is quite safe right now unfortunately.

Whatever your opinion of Occupy was, it should be noted how quickly and deviously the government/corporate world moved to stomp it out.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I wouldn't be so sure that Sweden's wealth and equality isn't equally tenuous.

Based this article, it's just as bad if not worse.

http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-upper-class-and-wealth-inequality.html

 

[SMOGZINN]

While the rest of the developed world takes long vacations, maternity leave, has affordable daycare, universal healthcare, free education, cheap transportation, and so on?

That will simple be played down by our media to the point that it is simply not in common knowledge of the average American. Really, it is not right now. They know that Europeans get more vacation time, but they don't really get just how big a disparity there really is. Americans are being kept ignorant of the rest of the world, and that is no accident. I expect that it will only get worse, until our entertainews is just flat out lying to us with images of poverty stricken third world nations labeled Norway complete with accompanying story about how lucky Americans are to have capitalistic corporations looking out for them and not the failed socialism of Europe.

You mean a bunch of homeless looking fools who had no common purpose and sounded and looked like complete idiots?

That movement was destined to fail.

And this is why a revolt will never happen. The news will be able to simply spin any group that tries as some subversive group that you should hate, and the majority of Americans will blindly accept what they are told. If the group is too good at getting their word out the spin will change to them being a 'terrorist' organization and the police will happily use what ever force is necessary to take out the 'terrorists', put black bags over their heads, and send them to some foreign prison for advanced interrogation techniques where they will never be heard from again.

If you think this isn't true check out the information coming out about how the federal government had drawn up plans to declare the Occupy Houston movement's leaders as terrorists in order to justify assassinating them.


All the pieces are in place. We are a well controlled population.

 

[Blackjack200]

That will simple be played down by our media to the point that it is simply not in common knowledge of the average American. Really, it is not right now. They know that Europeans get more vacation time, but they don't really get just how big a disparity there really is. Americans are being kept ignorant of the rest of the world, and that is no accident. I expect that it will only get worse, until our entertainews is just flat out lying to us with images of poverty stricken third world nations labeled Norway complete with accompanying story about how lucky Americans are to have capitalistic corporations looking out for them and not the failed socialism of Europe.

I don't see that happening. News media in any place tends to paint a rosy picture, but blatent lies like that will not stand up.

And this is why a revolt will never happen. The news will be able to simply spin any group that tries as some subversive group that you should hate, and the majority of Americans will blindly accept what they are told. If the group is too good at getting their word out the spin will change to them being a 'terrorist' organization and the police will happily use what ever force is necessary to take out the 'terrorists', put black bags over their heads, and send them to some foreign prison for advanced interrogation techniques where they will never be heard from again.

If you think this isn't true check out the information coming out about how the federal government had drawn up plans to declare the Occupy Houston movement's leaders as terrorists in order to justify assassinating them.


All the pieces are in place. We are a well controlled population.

What? No.

 

[Matt1970]

I don't want an armed uprising but I can't imagine that's something that we wanted back in the 1770's, the French wanted at the end of the 1800's or the Russians wanted in the beginning of the 1900's. I highly doubt the Arab spring, with all the death and destruction, is what the middle east wanted. It just sparked and happened.

At some point something does need to change. Eventually Americans will catch on that their standard of living has fallen too far behind the rest of the developed world. It's pretty much either that or the rest of the developed world has to come to the same level as the US. Which is it? Are we destined to improve our standard of living or is everyone just going to keep falling? Do you think China, India, and Brazil are aiming to be like the USA or like the rest of the developed world?

You are also trying to compare the people in the US being upset at the lack of features they can afford in their new car or how big the third TV in their house is with people that live under very oppressive governments. I imagine those people felt they had no other choice. Here there are very few people so upset at their situations that they are ready to take up arms.

Ok, so lets say enough people get together and decide they have had enough. Then what? How far are you willing to take it? Are you just going to cause enough ruckus to try and get a few laws changed (you already admitted Occupy was a joke) or are you going for what some people want and a total takeover? Our who society relies on the corporations you wish to take over by force for everything from cars to toothbrushes. How soon till those are back up and running with all their supply chains back up and running as well? Who is at the helm of those corporations and who decides that? Are we going to end up with a utopia or something close to what was in Mad Max?

 

[SMOGZINN]

I don't see that happening. News media in any place tends to paint a rosy picture, but blatent lies like that will not stand up.

I guess you have never watched Fox News. They are the most obvious about it, but all of the news programs will outright lie to create the spin they want.

What? No.

Your eloquent argument has convinced me.
Oh. Wait. No it hasn't.

So, what part to you not agree with?
That the news will spin a group to look like the bad guys?
That American's will blindly follow whatever the TV tells them to?
That the government will take extreme measures to stop overly successful protesters?

 

[Blackjack200]

I guess you have never watched Fox News. They are the most obvious about it, but all of the news programs will outright lie to create the spin they want.

I see Fox News and CNBC as cartoonish charicatures of the news. I don't think a significant portion of the country relies on them for information.

There is plenty to complain about when it comes to what's published on the pages of the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Times, but I don't think they're creating some kind of alternate reality fabric.

Your eloquent argument has convinced me.
Oh. Wait. No it hasn't.

Fair, that's wasn't a good response.

So, what part to you not agree with?

Core concept? [/Archer]

Seriously, the whole New World Order, paranoid tone of the thing. Your links povide evidence for Government institutions that have behaved in disgraceful, illegal ways, but they also demonstrate that there are strong checks in place: the courts, institutions like the ALCU, the New York Times, etc.

I'm not dismissing any of what you linked to or posted, but I absolutely reject the idea that they are evidence of a nation sliding into some kind of authoritarian dictatorship (not that you said it was, but it's the kind of society you illustrated, with information sources parroting blatent lies in support of the governing regime)

 

[StinkyPinky]

The USA is like putting a frog in a pot of water and slowly boiling it. Everyone's just sitting there totally oblivious to the fact that this country is going down the shitter. And if you ever dare to compare it to other countries who are doing better, you get the same tired old "yeah but they're socialist" or "move there then". The US must be the only country in the world where people actually fight for the rich elite to take even more of their money.

 

[cyclohexane]

The USA is like putting a frog in a pot of water and slowly boiling it. Everyone's just sitting there totally oblivious to the fact that this country is going down the shitter. And if you ever dare to compare it to other countries who are doing better, you get the same tired old "yeah but they're socialist" or "move there then". The US must be the only country in the world where people actually fight for the rich elite to take even more of their money.

Total truth. I have heard arguments from people who are dead broke on why Obamacare and corporate tax breaks are bad for them personally, because it will kill their jobs (I'm sure they have awesome jobs).

In the US, lower class southern white people fight and vote to defend the ultra-elite. Hilarious.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I see Fox News and CNBC as cartoonish charicatures of the news. I don't think a significant portion of the country relies on them for information.

There is plenty to complain about when it comes to what's published on the pages of the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Times, but I don't think they're creating some kind of alternate reality fabric.

I sure hope that not to many people use them as their primary news source, but I'm afraid that many do. More to the point is that if they can get away with it, and be convincing enough for AT P&N to exist, then I don't think it is too far fetched to think that your local news is probably distorting the news in their own way as well.

Seriously, the whole New World Order, paranoid tone of the thing. Your links povide evidence for Government institutions that have behaved in disgraceful, illegal ways, but they also demonstrate that there are strong checks in place: the courts, institutions like the ALCU, the New York Times, etc.

It occurs to me that a lot of what has been going on since late 2001 has the effect of undermining those checks. One thing that I noticed when I went searching for those links was that it was hard to find the information. The article in the Quebec newspaper where the police officially admitted that the men in question were undercover agents was removed. There has been not a single article posted about the Occupy Houston papers since the April 9th deadline for the FBI to produce the un-redacted papers.
Do I think these are conspiracy? Not really, I think those stories just are not something the news agency or the companies that own them want promoted.

I'm not dismissing any of what you linked to or posted, but I absolutely reject the idea that they are evidence of a nation sliding into some kind of authoritarian dictatorship (not that you said it was, but it's the kind of society you illustrated, with information sources parroting blatent lies in support of the governing regime)

I don't think it is an authoritarian dictatorship, or a conspiracy. I think it is a thousand powers all looking out for what is best for them, all collecting what power they can. There needs to be no conspiracy, or even communication for them to all do what is best for them.

 

[Pocatello]

Total truth. I have heard arguments from people who are dead broke on why Obamacare and corporate tax breaks are bad for them personally, because it will kill their jobs (I'm sure they have awesome jobs).

In the US, lower class southern white people fight and vote to defend the ultra-elite. Hilarious.

Most of them don't know any better. They do believe the USA is a blessed country by God and nobody else. The politicians know this and keep feeding their constituents what they want to hear.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The USA is like putting a frog in a pot of water and slowly boiling it. Everyone's just sitting there totally oblivious to the fact that this country is going down the shitter. And if you ever dare to compare it to other countries who are doing better, you get the same tired old "yeah but they're socialist" or "move there then". The US must be the only country in the world where people actually fight for the rich elite to take even more of their money.

I lump those people in with those that believe other countries have it so much better yet have never traveled to the countries in question or for that matter never traveled outside the US. People in other countries aren't allowed to fight or speak out so the rich/nobility take what they want. There's no utopian countries...period.