The middle class poorer than the rest of the world in other countries now

[Matt1970]

What he is saying is that statistics are hard and he does not understand how they work.

Because you would have to apply the same rules to ten times the population and hope for the same outcome.

 

[Zaap]

If I discuss this in the US everyone just brings up 30 year old stereotypes about socialism or spouts that the US is so great because everyone wants to move there. Everyone doesn't want to move there though. Last time I looked I think it was something like 12% of our immigration is from developed nations. More people move to Spain AND Germany than the US. So yeah lots of people from 3rd world countries are coming to the US. No surprise there. I have tried over and over and over again to get some of my European friends to move to the US and they flat out refuse.

Why the hell would anyone intelligent, educated, hard working and upwardly mobile want to move here? We've been shunning, practically banning such people from coming here for years. Just look at the so-called immigration debate. We're working feverishly to make our OFFICIAL immigration policy rewarding the least-educated, poorest, least-skilled who cut in line ahead of everyone else. It's not even a system of immigration that idiots are clamoring for here, but flat out illegal immigration being the norm.

Meanwhile, I've witnessed bright, educated, industrious people who come here legally hassled by red tape and bullshit and made to feel completely unwelcomed and encouraged to leave. The type of immigrants we should want here have virtually ZERO once incentive to come here, while we bend over backwards to reward any poor third-Worlder that scrambles over a fence. We've long signaled to the rest of the world: first world educated and skilled? Get lost. We're not about that anymore. Third world poor, unskilled? Front of the line.. in fact, for you, what line? Sneak in and bring your 59 family members with you. Crowd into our cities and towns, shove aside our native poor (and increasingly our middle class as well) and do everything for peanuts.

This country is on a kick to transform itself into a poor third world shithole (because that's fair or something. Its also great for politicians that so many people worship. The more poor, dependant people, the more power they amass and they reward their cronies in big business with endless slave labor turning every job into shit.)

So until we get off that kick and want to go back to having a.first world mindset that welcomes the best and brightest from the rest of the world, I can't see any reason why the best and the brightest from the rest of the world should come here. What the hell for? Heck, the smart money is getting the hell out of this country. Unless you're coming here to oversee the transfer to your own country that's interested in moving forward, why would you be here for the decent into a shithole of this nation?

Were a country right now that's enjoying our own third-worldization- its something all sides have worked hard to get to. (The wealthy who will benefit from it, and the stupid who bought into it being "fair" because the nation was.too successful, yet who weren't quite let in on the gameplan that THEY (not the rich and sure as hell not the political class) would be the ones getting poorer and doing all third-world living.)

Any foreigners with half a brain... sit tight wherever you are. Our money is packing up.and leaving for your shores. No need for you to be here. Now if you're poor, unskilled and willing to cram yourself and your 59 realatives into our country for a pittance wage in the name of making some guilt-ridden American feel better about not being as well off as they once were... come on in!!!!!! The door is wide open. Cut right to the front of the non-existent line.

 

[BoberFett]

Only for 99(.9) percent of the country.

Where's the corresponding picture of Obama and his cronies laughing about Quantitative Easing trickling down to main street?

 

[mchammer187]

Where's the corresponding picture of Obama and his cronies laughing about Quantitative Easing trickling down to main street?

I don't think there was ever any argument for that.

Just without quantitative easing "Great Recession" would be more catastrophic or at the very least way worse than it ended up being.

I'll admit they didn't aim very high on that one and its effects are debatable but the promises were nothing like trickle down economics.

 

[Ken g6]

Now I'm confused: I though [thread=2379506]we were the one percent[/thread].

 

[BoberFett]

I don't think there was ever any argument for that.

Just without quantitative easing "Great Recession" would be more catastrophic or at the very least way worse than it ended up being.

I'll admit they didn't aim very high on that one and its effects are debatable but the promises were nothing like trickle down economics.

The promise was that the liquidity the banks would now have after the Fed buys up MBSes will make it's way to Main Street in the form of loans for businesses, i.e. trickle down.

That has not happened. But I do detect the faint whiff of urine...

 

[JockoJohnson]

Is there some kind of point you are trying to make? What you said means nothing.

Yes, because clearly Sweden has the same population and racial make-up as the US. So we truly are comparing apples to apples here. Good thing for stats. Wouldn't want to look behind the numbers.

 

[rudder]

I can't argue with any of that. Personally when people ask I just say that the US isn't right for me right now. I personally can't imagine having children in the US. I'll move back when they're older or at least old enough to be in school. Even that is doubtful though since until the University level I am incredibly unimpressed with the US education system. Maybe I can find a good private school.

Education in the U.S.A. is a mixed bag. Politicians pimped out the "everyone must have a college degree to succeed" mantra for so long. This has created a system of colleges that cater to the common denominator and the degree they issue are worthless. That being said... look at which country has had the most nobel prizes in medicine the last few decades. If you want a top notch education in the U.S. you can get it. Just like the public schools... the education is there, you just have to be proactive and take it.

The thing is that we're not just talking about Sweden. We're talking about multiple countries from Europe to Australia. Yes Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Greece are not doing so well so we should not look to them as a role model. At the same time if there is a great place in the US then we should maybe look to them for national changes. Are there any such places you might recommend?

What is your criteria for a great place? I live in Tennessee and besides not having beaches the state is okay. Fiscally the government is responsible and taxes are generally fair across the board. There is some stupid legislation that comes out of the state... but nothing that will destroy the world.

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying as a Sweden is #1 and USA is in last place either. I love both countries but I find it embarrassing that the USA, the former most amazing place on the planet, is now trailing in almost all categories compared to the rest of the developed world. However I recognize that while Sweden is improving the USA is getting worse and is in denial. The USA can only brag about GDP for so long. It's not that impressive if most of it is going to a very small group of people while the rest of the country is sitting on stagnant wages and higher costs.

The biggest issue is our political system has been hijacked by greedy assholes. One example, I am not allowed to go into a store, pay cash, and not have to pay the credit card surcharge fee. Credit card lobbyists made sure to remove all incentives to not use a credit card. Just one example. A lot of legislation you can follow a money trail. Plust he current administration is not helpinh by pumping billions into the stock market which only benefits the wealthiest Americans.

The biggest gripe I have with the US right now is that the only place I can even discuss this is places like here. If I discuss this in the US everyone just brings up 30 year old stereotypes about socialism or spouts that the US is so great because everyone wants to move there. Everyone doesn't want to move there though. Last time I looked I think it was something like 12% of our immigration is from developed nations. More people move to Spain AND Germany than the US. So yeah lots of people from 3rd world countries are coming to the US. No surprise there. I have tried over and over and over again to get some of my European friends to move to the US and they flat out refuse. Nobody wants 2 weeks vacation, expensive healthcare, expensive school, and to sit in a car for over an hour per day. Can you blame them? If I try to use statistics there people put their fingers in their ears. Americans have become apathetic. Those at the bottom are hopeless and those at the top could give two shits about the rest of the population. The middle class just shakes their head and has no clue what to do about it.

The democrats like low information voters and the republicans don't complain enough about cheap labor. So we have a messed up immigration system. Illegals depress wages across the board which make it harder for both citizens and legal immigrants to make a go at a good life. Those other things, 2 weeks vacation, expensive healthcare, expensive school, hour long commutes... YMMV. If you are one of those people that actually worked for a good education and got a meaningful degree and gained practical knowledge... those things are less of an issue. The biggest problem I see is that Americans expect to much to be handed to them.

 

[Genx87]

Is there some kind of point you are trying to make? What you said means nothing.

Out of 10 of my friends 4 have lake homes. Grow that to 100 of my friends and it drops to 15. We are talking about a country the size of Sweden vs the United States. We wont see a linear scale between the two on many thing. So pointing out 30% of a much smaller country has a cottage doesn't tell us much. I'm sure if the United States was 900 million people the % would drop further. Likewise if Sweden swelled to 320 million people that 30% wouldnt hold up neither.

 

[MagickMan]

New York Times article link

Apparently the US is not the greatest nor richest anymore, we lag far behind other countries now.

"Lag"? "Far"? You didn't actually read any of the article, admit it. :\

 

[dmcowen674]

Americans have become apathetic.

Those at the bottom are hopeless and those at the top could give two shits about the rest of the population.

The middle class just shakes their head and has no clue what to do about it.

That sums up the current state of the United Corporations of America.

Except one correction.

The middle class is shrinking fast becoming a giant bottom.

Once enough that were middle class fall they will band together and start a new Civil War.

Several things have already brought the country to the brink of the start.

Almost had the start a couple of weeks ago on a ranch in Nevada.

The Federal Government knew it could have been the match that starts the wildfire and they put that match out.

They won't be able to stop the wildfire once it does start.

History always repeats itself just like gravity always wins.

 

[FalseChristian]

The U.S. has over 320,000,000 people! What country of this colossal size has ever achieved so much or given so much to help others. If it weren't for the U.S. helping Europe after WW II with the Marshall Plan it would be like Africa right now! I agree that the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer but I can only think of one other country in this world that offers the hope and dreams that the U.S. does and that is my home country of America, Jnr. (er, I mean, Canada.)

 

[Matt1970]

That sums up the current state of the United Corporations of America.

Except one correction.

The middle class is shrinking fast becoming a giant bottom.

Once enough that were middle class fall they will band together and start a new Civil War.

There just aren't enough people angry and stupid enough to take up arms out of anger over their share of the pie.

 

[AViking]

There just aren't enough people angry and stupid enough to take up arms out of anger over their share of the pie.

History tells us that it doesn't take much to spark a riot or uprising. The French revolution was due to a few years of bad weather for example. I wonder what would happen if we had an oil crisis again like we did in the 1970's or another dust bowl like we did in the 1930's. What happens in a generation if nobody can afford a home because of 9% interest rates and $500,000 houses combined with huge student loans and high unemployment? I'd like to think that the solution to an armed uprising would be to fix our problems before something that extreme can happen.

 

[Genx87]

History tells us that it doesn't take much to spark a riot or uprising. The French revolution was due to a few years of bad weather for example. I wonder what would happen if we had an oil crisis again like we did in the 1970's or another dust bowl like we did in the 1930's. What happens in a generation if nobody can afford a home because of 9% interest rates and $500,000 houses combined with huge student loans and high unemployment? I'd like to think that the solution to an armed uprising would be to fix our problems before something that extreme can happen.

We had 9+% interest rates in the 1970s. Did we revolt? And if we hit 9% interest rates those homes wont be worth 500,000.

I think it takes quite a bit more to get a revolution started. When you look at the last century of the peasants rising up against the rich\elite\monarchs. It took conditions far worse than anything we have right now.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

LMAO @ armed uprising!!!!! Only in McOwned's and Spidey's wet dreams will this occur.

 

[TROLLERCAUST]

The U.S. has over 320,000,000 people! What country of this colossal size has ever achieved so much or given so much to help others. If it weren't for the U.S. helping Europe after WW II with the Marshall Plan it would be like Africa right now! I agree that the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer but I can only think of one other country in this world that offers the hope and dreams that the U.S. does and that is my home country of America, Jnr. (er, I mean, Canada.)

I live in a country which received no Marshall aid, instead we had to pay war reparations, the only country to do so fully, which crippled our economy for years. Africa not found.

I'll gladly thank America (inc. Canada ) for their help in WW2 and after the war. Without their help a much greater portion of Europe might have fallen under communism. Thank you. :thumbsup:

 

[Zaap]

Armed uprising... LOL!

Only if it comes out on X-Box and PlayStation.

This country has a looooong way to go before approaching anything like hardship that exists in much of the world... and much of the world just lives with it, with some monarch or mullah or dictator taking everything and the people placated with speeches and scraps.

People here will do the same after whining to make our govt just as corrupt and our system just as shitty. Eventually, if we complete our transformation to a third world culture (as many are embracing, which is why I always find it funny when they whine about the early results of exactly what they've been racing towards because they thought some rich guy was going to be the one getting poorer) I've no doubt we'll have people living in mountains of garbage and in cardboard boxes, still worshiping the politicians who put them there, and still placated by the promises that the rich will be forced to give up their money and give it to them....aaaaaaany year now. Armed uprising is laughable. More like further on your knees for the govt master.

 

[Matt1970]

History tells us that it doesn't take much to spark a riot or uprising. The French revolution was due to a few years of bad weather for example. I wonder what would happen if we had an oil crisis again like we did in the 1970's or another dust bowl like we did in the 1930's. What happens in a generation if nobody can afford a home because of 9% interest rates and $500,000 houses combined with huge student loans and high unemployment? I'd like to think that the solution to an armed uprising would be to fix our problems before something that extreme can happen.

You do realize that an armed uprising in a country like ours would absolutely devastate the economy. No matter which side won we would all lose. Regardless of what anyone else tells you houses will always be within our reach. Nobody raises prices beyond anyone's reach if they want to make sales.

 

[AViking]

You do realize that an armed uprising in a country like ours would absolutely devastate the economy. No matter which side won we would all lose. Regardless of what anyone else tells you houses will always be within our reach. Nobody raises prices beyond anyone's reach if they want to make sales.

I don't want an armed uprising but I can't imagine that's something that we wanted back in the 1770's, the French wanted at the end of the 1800's or the Russians wanted in the beginning of the 1900's. I highly doubt the Arab spring, with all the death and destruction, is what the middle east wanted. It just sparked and happened.

At some point something does need to change. Eventually Americans will catch on that their standard of living has fallen too far behind the rest of the developed world. It's pretty much either that or the rest of the developed world has to come to the same level as the US. Which is it? Are we destined to improve our standard of living or is everyone just going to keep falling? Do you think China, India, and Brazil are aiming to be like the USA or like the rest of the developed world?

 

[DCal430]

So you know this isn't adjusted for price differences either. Americans still have greater purchasing power as items are still less costly here.

 

[Matt1970]

I don't want an armed uprising but I can't imagine that's something that we wanted back in the 1770's, the French wanted at the end of the 1800's or the Russians wanted in the beginning of the 1900's. I highly doubt the Arab spring, with all the death and destruction, is what the middle east wanted. It just sparked and happened.

At some point something does need to change. Eventually Americans will catch on that their standard of living has fallen too far behind the rest of the developed world. It's pretty much either that or the rest of the developed world has to come to the same level as the US. Which is it? Are we destined to improve our standard of living or is everyone just going to keep falling? Do you think China, India, and Brazil are aiming to be like the USA or like the rest of the developed world?

If it was going to happen, it would have happened with the occupy movement.

 

[AViking]

So you know this isn't adjusted for price differences either. Americans still have greater purchasing power as items are still less costly here.

If life was just about what you could buy that would be great. It's not.

I think Sweden is 33% more expensive than the US according to the OECD.
http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PPPGDP

Yet their standard of living is much higher since they don't have to take their income to purchase expensive daycare, healthcare, vacation, and so on. My monthly transportation costs by boat, bus, train, trolley and subway are $100, my food is comparable but would be more expensive if I ate as much red meat as I did in the states, my rent is cheaper in the center of Stockholm, and so on.

So it's not just about what your take home pay is. It's about what you have to spend it on to survive.

In the USA the average disposable income is $12,706 USD a year.

The OECD average is $23,047 USD a year.

In Sweden the average disposable income is $34,852.64 USD a year.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/sweden/indicators

 

[AViking]

If it was going to happen, it would have happened with the occupy movement.

You mean a bunch of homeless looking fools who had no common purpose and sounded and looked like complete idiots?

That movement was destined to fail.

 

[AViking]

Hold on. I think I read this chart wrong.

Sweden has a personal disposable income of 229152.00 SEK which is $34,852.64 USD