The middle class poorer than the rest of the world in other countries now

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Median incomes in Western European countries still trail those in the United States, but the gap in several — including Britain, the Netherlands and Sweden — is much smaller than it was a decade ago.

Sounds like the OP failed to read his article.
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
On a serious note this is a very interesting article. I do like how it at least partially addresses monthly expenses and parental leave. The big thing that Americans need to understand is that if you take home an extra $3000 a year but have to pay for education, healthcare, daycare, and so on it really makes you poorer. Quality of life is much higher in Europe because their take home pay can mostly be used for discretionary spending. If you bring home $5000 a month and have $2000 in bills that means you can take a really nice vacation several times a year and pad your retirement account quite a bit. Most Swedes tend to have two homes. One in the city and then a small cottage out in the country. Many Americans are barely getting by today.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
The solution is that Americans need to work more.

Sarcasm meter just maxed out. Good one though.

Our capitalist greed will be our downfall. Rather than working for the greater good, we are only concerned with our own good.

A single brick does not make a wall. Only through cooperation can we build something great.
 

JockoJohnson

Golden Member
May 20, 2009
1,417
60
91
The solution is that Americans need to work more.

Definitely...or we should hand out more free money to the poor to bring their standard of living and income up to that of Canada and Europe.

We are losing the War on Poverty and need to inject more money. Quantitative Easing is not trickling down to the middle class and poor.

Plus, I might have missed it in the story, where is the ruthless cop that beat an innocent person?
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,238
136
What's also interesting to consider the lifestyle you can actually have in some of these "2nd world" countries, if you have a bit of money.

It's not uncommon to have cooks and maids even in middle class homes. Know write a number of people who have come here for good jobs, but have a lower std of living they may have elsewhere even tho bank acts are larger
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
8
0
See, the US job creators DID create wealth and prosperity,.. in other countries.

Now, here is the problem, for you; you idiots are still in a country filled with increasingly poor and pissed off people. Oh, that's right, the same government you wanted to stay out of your lives will now protect you from the dirty poor masses!!

Plus, these forums have plenty of volunteers who will lay down their lives for you to be safe and happy (aka, plan B).
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,582
162
106
Most Swedes tend to have two homes.


Care to share some statistics? My guess is that you are running on anecdotal evidence. If it is anything like Norway (I have a lot if friends from there), a family of siblings might have a cottage, not each sibling (and they likely inherited that property). And I'm talking about middle-high class Norwegians.

I also have a large population of high wage earner friends in Switzerland, Germany, and Austria. Only one friend has two homes (Germany and a condo in St. Moritz) that he co-owns with his parents (who are very successful owners of a local business...so funded most of it).

In contrast, I have 6 friends who own second (or more) properties up in the mountains here in Colorado. I also get off everyday at 3pm and generally go immediately to mountain biking or running. My friends here are all in unbelievable shape and eat very healthy (as do I and my wife). I came to Colorado after turning down an opportunity by my old company to move to Vienna as I knew I would be working/traveling way too much for my liking. So my anecdotal evidence says the EXACT opposite of yours. Granted, I would never say that my experience represents all of the US...as the place is huge and much more diverse than a place like Sweden.

You really need to stop your over glorification of Europe/Sweden in every thread...it really gets old. I have spent a LOT of time there and while they do a lot of things right (and I always enjoy myself), they also do a lot of things wrong. There is no perfect place.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
See, the US job creators DID create wealth and prosperity,.. in other countries.

Now, here is the problem, for you; you idiots are still in a country filled with increasingly poor and pissed off people. Oh, that's right, the same government you wanted to stay out of your lives will now protect you from the dirty poor masses!!

Plus, these forums have plenty of volunteers who will lay down their lives for you to be safe and happy (aka, plan B).

We just keep demanding our $8 Walmart blue jeans and wonder why the jobs end up overseas.
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
Care to share some statistics? My guess is that you are running on anecdotal evidence. If it is anything like Norway (I have a lot if friends from there), a family of siblings might have a cottage, not each sibling (and they likely inherited that property). And I'm talking about middle-high class Norwegians.

I also have a large population of high wage earner friends in Switzerland, Germany, and Austria. Only one friend has two homes (Germany and a condo in St. Moritz) that he co-owns with his parents (who are very successful owners of a local business...so funded most of it).

In contrast, I have 6 friends who own second (or more) properties up in the mountains here in Colorado. I also get off everyday at 3pm and generally go immediately to mountain biking or running. My friends here are all in unbelievable shape and eat very healthy (as do I and my wife). I came to Colorado after turning down an opportunity by my old company to move to Vienna as I knew I would be working/traveling way too much for my liking. So my anecdotal evidence says the EXACT opposite of yours. Granted, I would never say that my experience represents all of the US...as the place is huge and much more diverse than a place like Sweden.

You really need to stop your over glorification of Europe/Sweden in every thread...it really gets old. I have spent a LOT of time there and while they do a lot of things right (and I always enjoy myself), they also do a lot of things wrong. There is no perfect place.

In the USA 3.09% own a holiday cottage.

Ca 55% av Sveriges befolkning uppgav 2002 att de hade tillgång till fritidshus, och ca 20% uppgav att de själva ägde fritidshuset

20% own one in Sweden and 55% have access to one. So yes there is the issue of siblings and not all of them outright owning it. Yes as far as I know it's mostly inherited. I have friends who have passed down the same summer cottage for over 150 years. They have a nice piece of land, tend to it, and enjoy mostly summers there but also a bit during the rest of the year.

I completely agree with you that no place is perfect. I'm simply pointing out things that Americans do not understand. I've lived in Europe for years, on and off, and lived in the US for 35 years. I have a unique perspective. I'm not talking about visiting a place for 2 weeks and then trying to compare. I have lived, studied, and worked in both continents. I've lived in the midwest and in CA. I have lived on the beaches (within 2 blocks) in CA: La Jolla, Marina Del Rey, Playa Del Rey, and Santa Monica and I still think the quality of life in Europe dominates what we get in the US. Americans are doing it wrong. I'm in the top percentiles so I have nothing to worry about personally but who wants to live in a place where most people are barely getting by, struggling to save money, are going to be living on very little when they retire, are not raising their own children, don't have affordable access to healthcare and education AND deny that they have a problem? The USA used to be amazing. I hope it is again one day.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
On a serious note this is a very interesting article. I do like how it at least partially addresses monthly expenses and parental leave. The big thing that Americans need to understand is that if you take home an extra $3000 a year but have to pay for education, healthcare, daycare, and so on it really makes you poorer. Quality of life is much higher in Europe because their take home pay can mostly be used for discretionary spending. If you bring home $5000 a month and have $2000 in bills that means you can take a really nice vacation several times a year and pad your retirement account quite a bit. Most Swedes tend to have two homes. One in the city and then a small cottage out in the country. Many Americans are barely getting by today.

I would love to accuse you of being fed false data, but at this point I think you are just making shit up. Most Swedes do NOT tend to have two homes. Swedes do have a good home ownership rate but at 70% that is hardly most of them owning 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate
 

z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
10,009
65
91
Sarcasm meter just maxed out. Good one though.

Our capitalist greed will be our downfall. Rather than working for the greater good, we are only concerned with our own good.

A single brick does not make a wall. Only through cooperation can we build something great.

This. When politicians and groups lobby and support the interest of corporations rather than the greater good of the people who elected them, you get problems. The problems may not happen quickly, so these people who benefit directly and quickly from this don't really care about the reprocussions of their actions.
 
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AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
I would love to accuse you of being fed false data, but at this point I think you are just making shit up. Most Swedes do NOT tend to have two homes. Swedes do have a good home ownership rate but at 70% that is hardly most of them owning 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

If it makes you feel better I will correct myself.

55% of Swedes have access to a summer cottage.

20% own one.

In the US 3.09% own one.

Hopefully that helps.
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
4
0
Holy crap, more people in poland, mexico and russia own their homes than in the united states?

We are doing something wrong, something seriously wrong.

Only for 99(.9) percent of the country.

1387276850565.jpg
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
On a serious note this is a very interesting article. I do like how it at least partially addresses monthly expenses and parental leave. The big thing that Americans need to understand is that if you take home an extra $3000 a year but have to pay for education, healthcare, daycare, and so on it really makes you poorer. Quality of life is much higher in Europe because their take home pay can mostly be used for discretionary spending. If you bring home $5000 a month and have $2000 in bills that means you can take a really nice vacation several times a year and pad your retirement account quite a bit. Most Swedes tend to have two homes. One in the city and then a small cottage out in the country. Many Americans are barely getting by today.

Maybe the U.S. should ship their poor to places like Sweden then. The poor can enjoy the higher quality of living over there and the U.S. income figures will start looking a lot better. Welfare via one-way plane ticket.
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,582
162
106
In the USA 3.09% own a holiday cottage.







20% own one in Sweden and 55% have access to one. So yes there is the issue of siblings and not all of them outright owning it. Yes as far as I know it's mostly inherited. I have friends who have passed down the same summer cottage for over 150 years. They have a nice piece of land, tend to it, and enjoy mostly summers there but also a bit during the rest of the year.



I completely agree with you that no place is perfect. I'm simply pointing out things that Americans do not understand. I've lived in Europe for years, on and off, and lived in the US for 35 years. I have a unique perspective. I'm not talking about visiting a place for 2 weeks and then trying to compare. I have lived, studied, and worked in both continents. I've lived in the midwest and in CA. I have lived on the beaches (within 2 blocks) in CA: La Jolla, Marina Del Rey, Playa Del Rey, and Santa Monica and I still think the quality of life in Europe dominates what we get in the US. Americans are doing it wrong. I'm in the top percentiles so I have nothing to worry about personally but who wants to live in a place where most people are barely getting by, struggling to save money, are going to be living on very little when they retire, are not raising their own children, don't have affordable access to healthcare and education AND deny that they have a problem? The USA used to be amazing. I hope it is again one day.


Fair enough regarding the statistics, but I still think it is wholly unfair to compare the two areas as a whole (Sweden and the whole of the USA). If you were to include all of Europe, things as a whole would change. There are plenty of pockets in the USA that are doing things pretty well, and certainly parts of Europe that are not. To expect the whole of the US to do as well as a small, relatively monoculture place like Sweden is pretty lopsided.

My experience in Europe is not just visiting for two weeks. Over the course of 5 years, I spent a large percentage if my time there working on projects for up to 6 months at a time in the UK, Denmark, Spain, Switzerland, Germany, and Austria. As I said, they do a lot of things right and I thoroughly enjoyed myself.... But when I had my choice to move (possibly permanently) to Vienna, I chose to pick a pocket of the United States I felt was moving in the right direction instead.
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
I can't argue with any of that. Personally when people ask I just say that the US isn't right for me right now. I personally can't imagine having children in the US. I'll move back when they're older or at least old enough to be in school. Even that is doubtful though since until the University level I am incredibly unimpressed with the US education system. Maybe I can find a good private school.

The thing is that we're not just talking about Sweden. We're talking about multiple countries from Europe to Australia. Yes Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Greece are not doing so well so we should not look to them as a role model. At the same time if there is a great place in the US then we should maybe look to them for national changes. Are there any such places you might recommend?

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying as a Sweden is #1 and USA is in last place either. I love both countries but I find it embarrassing that the USA, the former most amazing place on the planet, is now trailing in almost all categories compared to the rest of the developed world. However I recognize that while Sweden is improving the USA is getting worse and is in denial. The USA can only brag about GDP for so long. It's not that impressive if most of it is going to a very small group of people while the rest of the country is sitting on stagnant wages and higher costs.

The biggest gripe I have with the US right now is that the only place I can even discuss this is places like here. If I discuss this in the US everyone just brings up 30 year old stereotypes about socialism or spouts that the US is so great because everyone wants to move there. Everyone doesn't want to move there though. Last time I looked I think it was something like 12% of our immigration is from developed nations. More people move to Spain AND Germany than the US. So yeah lots of people from 3rd world countries are coming to the US. No surprise there. I have tried over and over and over again to get some of my European friends to move to the US and they flat out refuse. Nobody wants 2 weeks vacation, expensive healthcare, expensive school, and to sit in a car for over an hour per day. Can you blame them? If I try to use statistics there people put their fingers in their ears. Americans have become apathetic. Those at the bottom are hopeless and those at the top could give two shits about the rest of the population. The middle class just shakes their head and has no clue what to do about it.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,238
136
3.09% of the United States equals the population of Sweden.

And Sweden is 4.5% the land area of the US. So what?

Overall point is if we as a nation are happy with the lifestyles we are creating for ourselves. We're great at working hard and creating wealth, but that doesn't mean we're enjoying our lives as much as we want.

Given the amt of discussion around this in our society, it's something worth reflecting on