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Review 'The Microsoft Surface Laptop 3 Showdown: Amd Picasso vs Intel Ice Lake' - Anandtech

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tamz_msc

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2017
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Not really. Two different range of CPU (lower end AMD vs. higher Intel). They also use two different WIFI chips. The Intel uses the latest and fastest chip. Also amount of RAM. Intel is using more which could account for more power usage if the browser/OS is using it for cache and such.

Comparing apples to oranges.
The Anandtech test also uses different WiFi chips as well as different SSDs. Guess that makes it apples to oranges as well.
 

tamz_msc

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2017
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Putting things into perspective, here is SPEC2017 AT's Ice Lake performance preview.



And here's the same in this review



As it can be clearly seen, Picasso is just shy of Kaby Lake-R, so essentially it matches last-gen Intel performance.
 
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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/c0jw7p Now I'll admit, AMD doesn't take the mobile market as seriously as server, workstation, or desktop
It's a shame too as there is a huge opportunity given the Intel chip shortage. Lots of companies want standard enterprise mobile options but AMD and major manufacturers just haven't focused on AMD mobile devices enough for them to be well optimized solutions in easily customizable ordering configurations deployable at scale.
 
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Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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It's a shame too as there is a huge opportunity given the Intel chip shortage. Lots of companies want standard enterprise mobile options but AMD and major manufacturers just haven't focused on AMD mobile devices enough for them to be well optimized solutions in easily customizable ordering configurations deployable at scale.
I fully agree that it's been a nagging lost opportunity to further unseat Intel with their Zen line, but I wonder if it's all back to the capacity limitations of sharing what TSMC has to offer when they can get it. If that's indeed the case and they can only get XX,XXX wafers per quarter or whatever, then their most profitable choice is to use as many as possible for things like the 8C Zen2 chiplets, as the ASP is much higher. It's certainly true that if they could offer greater numbers of mobile SKUs and in a more timely manner (eg; the lag to getting 7nm Zen2 mobile), then I feel their success would be greater still.

I feel sincerely that Intel isn't the enemy of AMD, but rather practical limits when you're forced to share a Fab with a ton of other major tech companies. In that event, capitalism and reality collide to say : he who pays the most gets the capacity (what there is anyway). And if you have a flagship ARM product that is ~545!! NDPW on 7nm, and each has an ASP of $85+, that blows the doors off a 7nm 8C Zen chiplet, of which are only 96 per wafer! $12,000-$12,500 per wafer is currently the rate, but TSMC is not a democracy, they'll gladly take a better offer from your competition, as they hold all the cards (literally, lol).

For AMD to reach the next step at being a premiere global semiconductor superpower, they need to regain their fabs. This is why Intel's basically inarguably inferior current products are selling completely out. It's not that the world is chock full of idiots that don't know any better (well, some of those lol), but rather the big OEMs need to ship laptops, desktops, nucs, thin clients, servers, etc, and Intel has the volume and product stack to meet that. Chipsets, IGP, SATA, USB, Thunderbolt, NIC, SSD, WiFi, they can provide stacks of items that make an OEMs workflow relatively smooth.
 

naukkis

Senior member
Jun 5, 2002
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). And if you have a flagship ARM product that is ~545!! NDPW on 7nm, and each has an ASP of $85+, that blows the doors off a 7nm 8C Zen chiplet, of which are only 96 per wafer! $12,000-$12,500 per wafer is currently the rate, but TSMC is not a democracy, they'll gladly take a better offer from your competition, as they hold all the cards (literally, lol).
? There's about 750 Zen2 chiplets in wafer. And 7nm wafer costs only about $8000. So AMD is quite a strong player in wafer race, didn't you read news that AMD is becoming TSMC's biggest 7nm customer and will order 30000 wafers in a month.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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? There's about 750 Zen2 chiplets in wafer. And 7nm wafer costs only about $8000. So AMD is quite a strong player in wafer race, didn't you read news that AMD is becoming TSMC's biggest 7nm customer and will order 30000 wafers in a month.
Ah good catch, that's what I get for scanning some quick posts on the go, I saw '96 partial dies' and was like wow that sounds suboptimal.

I did see $12k/wafer however. Did prices drop that far? If so, that is fantastic for us hopefully with future prices. I think AMD's biggest obstacle is volume, as even Intel's inferior options are sold to production capacity limits. An AMD that can produce 20% more CPUs is an AMD that sells 20% more CPUs, and so on, and at some point that will bite into more than the DIY market. Right now AMD is basically a tenth the size of Intel by sales, and a lot of that has to do with infrastructure and capacity.


https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/9uutm4
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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It's a shame too as there is a huge opportunity given the Intel chip shortage.
If AMD had known well in advance about that problem, they could probably sell even sub-par products from their lineup to fill in the gaps, assuming they could show OEMs a willingness to maintain supplies over the desired time period. Fact is that Dr. Su never planned on going after the high volume "low" margin market until well after knocking Intel off their pedestal in the server/workstation arena. AMD has been burned before going after low(er) margin products in the past as their primary target.

It's interesting that demand for desktop-class consumer CPUs has remained so steady in the last year or two after we were all told that PCs were essentially dead. Not only has the decline in PC sales stopped, it has reversed itself. A curious turn of events.
 
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jpiniero

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Oct 1, 2010
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It's interesting that demand for desktop-class consumer CPUs has remained so steady in the last year or two after we were all told that PCs were essentially dead. Not only has the decline in PC sales stopped, it has reversed itself. A curious turn of events.
A lot of that was due to Corps buying new machines due to Windows 7 going EOL though.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
6,577
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DIY is small in the scheme of things, and they aren't counted in the PC sales reports you see anyway.
When you are talking about 3-5% differences, surely they make a difference. Intel even did a research and said each enthusiast affects nearly a dozen people around them.

Most such technically knowledgeable users also work in the industry, whether sales or technical support/repair.

The PC sales reports have a section called "other". It takes up 30% of the whole market. Some are obviously smaller manufacturers, but I don't doubt it includes DIY.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
14,607
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A lot of that was due to Corps buying new machines due to Windows 7 going EOL though.
It still demonstrates that corporate buyers aren't migrating off PCs to "next gen" products (work phones, tablets). The upgrade cycle has changed, but the need for PCs is still there. We were all being told that the need had passed.
 
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misuspita

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Jul 15, 2006
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It's interesting that demand for desktop-class consumer CPUs has remained so steady in the last year or two after we were all told that PCs were essentially dead. Not only has the decline in PC sales stopped, it has reversed itself. A curious turn of events.
I am curious if the lack of performance upgrades from Intel caused the lack of upgrade needs. I mean, if this year's "new" shiny CPU is 5% faster than the last one, and next year's new another 5% on top of that, and this thing continues like it did when AMD was swamped with Bulldozer, you practically had a i5 from 5 years ago which was the same number of cores, and roughly the same performance as the one launched this year. Of course that if the PCs didn't break, no-one would feel the need to replace them. And so the market... "died"

Now, with i3 having the same performance as the i7 from the past (4c/8t, that really shows how much Intel milked the market) and of course the W7 dieing out, there is a interest in the new moar cores CPU and their performance.

My 2 cents.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
14,607
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I am curious if the lack of performance upgrades from Intel caused the lack of upgrade needs.
Possible. Difficult to prove without extensive research. If ARM laptops continue to proliferate (at higher levels of performance gain per generation than pre-Coffee Intel) then that may support your hypothesis.
 

RetroZombie

Senior member
Nov 5, 2019
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Now, with i3 having the same performance as the i7 from the past (4c/8t, that really shows how much Intel milked the market)
Yeah, and the plan was the same for the next years to come, just see how ice lake is the same pathetic quad core cpu in 2020 and how they would keep providing the dual core version of that.

I just bought the cheapest samsung tablet and even that thing have eight cores.

At this rate intel will start competing with the same number of cpu cores inside the smartwatches.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,389
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Surface with Renoir sorta confirmed:

Can't wait till Anandtech does a review of that
Man that should be like night and day. I really wasn't too enthused with the Zen+ offering, but the real mamma jamma Zen2 core Renoir is a killer match to make for mobile monsters.

Intel isn't too concerned about the desktop situation I don't believe. But I bet they're quaking a bit knowing how much better this lineup will be. In the desktop they can crank the clocks and volts and compete in some areas by bruting it out, even if it means more heat and cooling required. That doesn't really fly for mobile stuff. Almost a perfect mirror image of the Bulldozer Piledriver days.

Going back to reviews of the FX-9590 etc, kind of hilarious, and obviously wouldn't work in any mobile application, even if cut in half. Flash forward to today, and although I enjoy my 9900KS OC, it absolutely hogs out on power under its DH15U, while the 3700X across the room gladly accepts a slight undervolt and cheerfully runs under about 1/4 the HSF of the other lol.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
14,607
3,585
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In the desktop they can crank the clocks and volts and compete in some areas by bruting it out, even if it means more heat and cooling required.
That worked in 2018 with the 9900k. Not anymore. Comet Lake-S? Please.
 

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