The liberals $43 billion train to no where...

[Greenman]

Looks like just in time for Okies canned from fracking jobs to get some work building our environmentally friendly infrastructure:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-...r-oil-patch-workers-laid-off-in-downturn.html

That train ain't going to be solar powered Sparky.

I don't get the "just build it no matter what" attitude. It's not sane.
And why a train? Why not a really huge water desalination plant? We could all use that. Why not repair the rotting infrastructure we have now? Why not build charging stations for electric cars, or develop a good hydrogen powered engine?
Why not build the biggest solar energy generation plant in the world? Why not any one of a thousand projects that would benefit the entire state, instead of small percentage of the population that don't care all that much about it one way or the other? The only people that are as rabidly pro train as you are the unions, because they stand to make more money than that train will be able to carry in a month.

 

[OverVolt]

Unabashedly pro-train.... lol

$%^& trains everywhere. Trains to here, trains to there, trains everywhere. I love trains. I've ridden on a train probably less than 10 times. The subway/metro is a different story, and its awesome to traverse a big city so fast. I don't see the point in inter-city transit. It would be for weekend trips, I can't see anybody commuting between those two big cities. You either have a job in one or the other city. I don't get it. And its not like either city doesn't have its own weekend attractions. Neither city is boring on the weekend I'm sure.

The subway actually carries commuters. But this... this is a huge waste.

 

[theeedude]

That train ain't going to be solar powered Sparky.

I don't get the "just build it no matter what" attitude. It's not sane.
And why a train? Why not a really huge water desalination plant? We could all use that. Why not repair the rotting infrastructure we have now? Why not build charging stations for electric cars, or develop a good hydrogen powered engine?
Why not build the biggest solar energy generation plant in the world? Why not any one of a thousand projects that would benefit the entire state, instead of small percentage of the population that don't care all that much about it one way or the other? The only people that are as rabidly pro train as you are the unions, because they stand to make more money than that train will be able to carry in a month.

Who said it's ONLY the train?

 

[cabri]

Sounds like for the initial section, $3.5B is Federal Money, $2.8B is state money.
But state taxes that will pay for this are also deductible on Federal returns. So effectively it's $4B Federal funds and tax breaks and $2.3B in CA taxpayer funds.
Pretty good multiplier on this infrastructure spending from CA taxpayer side.

Taxes are only deductible where directly assessed to the person/property.
How are the CA taxes being assessed?

Also, to be deducted, one needs to itemize using the Schedule A.

So any person in CA that files without itemizing does not get that advantage.
And those tax breaks are now being paid for by the rest of the population that do not live in CA.

 

[waggy]

LOL i can't believe CA is still trying to build this..

 

[glenn1]

LOL i can't believe CA is still trying to build this..

Probably taking their inspiration from the Ryuyong. We ought to have a contest for which gets completed first.

 

[K1052]

Evidently they don't even have a plan to get into LA yet

:awe:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...speed-rail-angeles-forest-20150114-story.html

The routing through the San Gabriel mountains has long been the most contentious part of the project. Now that it's down to the Soledad Pass vicinity the debate is largely if it should be tunneled or follow a less direct (but less expensive) above ground alignment with more impact. This is a good argument to be having.

http://www.hsr.ca.gov/docs/programs/statewide_rail/proj_sections/Palmdale_Burbank/Palmdale_Burbank_Public_Meeting_Large_Plot.pdf

 

[K1052]

That train ain't going to be solar powered Sparky.

CAHSR will only use renewable energy:

http://www.hsr.ca.gov/Programs/Green_Practices/operations.html

 

[K1052]

Unabashedly pro-train.... lol

$%^& trains everywhere. Trains to here, trains to there, trains everywhere. I love trains. I've ridden on a train probably less than 10 times. The subway/metro is a different story, and its awesome to traverse a big city so fast. I don't see the point in inter-city transit. It would be for weekend trips, I can't see anybody commuting between those two big cities. You either have a job in one or the other city. I don't get it. And its not like either city doesn't have its own weekend attractions. Neither city is boring on the weekend I'm sure.

The subway actually carries commuters. But this... this is a huge waste.

Why are these things mutually exclusive? Improved local transit and inter-city transport complement and reinforce each other. The NEC is excellent proof of that.

 

[LevelSea]

Is there a chance the track could bend?

Not on your life, my Hindu friend.

 

[theeedude]

Taxes are only deductible where directly assessed to the person/property.
How are the CA taxes being assessed?

Also, to be deducted, one needs to itemize using the Schedule A.

So any person in CA that files without itemizing does not get that advantage.
And those tax breaks are now being paid for by the rest of the population that do not live in CA.

CA builds train, collects state income taxes to pay for it. State income taxes are deductible on the federal level. Most people in CA paying high marginal federal tax rates itemize to deduct state income taxes, property taxes, and mortgage interest. Not everyone, but net result is CA gets both direct federal stimulus money and tax break from the feds. As far as people not living in CA, that's not my problem to worry about. They turned down federal HSR funds, it's their decision.

 

[cabri]

CAHSR will only use renewable energy:

http://www.hsr.ca.gov/Programs/Green_Practices/operations.html

he Authority has committed to using 100 percent renewable energy for powering the system. This is a unique commitment, but very sensible given the abundance of renewable energy resources in California: sun, wind, geothermal, and bioenergy. While the precise contracts and agreements will be worked out over the next several years, the ultimate result will be a net-zero rail system. Net-zero is achieved by procuring or producing enough renewable energy to offset the amount of energy it takes from the state’s power grid to operate trains and facilities.

The Authority will not only consider the opportunities to produce renewable energy on its facilities (rooftop and platform canopies) but will work closely with seasoned renewable energy developers to find cost-effective renewable energy generation opportunities. There are also more innovative sources, such as biogas from the state’s dairies, that could be cost effectively utilized for train electricity.

A net-zero rail system will increase the environmental benefits and reinforce California’s renewable energy economy while providing the Authority with a cost-stable source of electricity.

Train, signals, communications, buildings, lighting are all going to come from renewable electric power. :\

Another wish list

 

[cabri]

CA builds train, collects state income taxes to pay for it. State income taxes are deductible on the federal level. Most people in CA paying high marginal federal tax rates itemize to deduct state income taxes, property taxes, and mortgage interest. Not everyone, but net result is CA gets both direct federal stimulus money and tax break from the feds. As far as people not living in CA, that's not my problem to worry about. They turned down federal HSR funds, it's their decision.

54% of CA is home ownership.Link
Very few renters will be able to use Schedule A

Nationwide, only 70% homeowners itemize.

So you are at less than 40% of CA residents will potentially get any extra benefit for the rail costs IF it is applied as sales tax or property tax.

 

[K1052]

Train, signals, communications, buildings, lighting are all going to come from renewable electric power. :\

Another wish list

The state already has an aggressive renewable portfolio standard. By 2020 1/3rd of the state's electricity must come from renewable energy.

 

[theeedude]

54% of CA is home ownership.Link
Very few renters will be able to use Schedule A

Nationwide, only 70% homeowners itemize.

So you are at less than 40% of CA residents will potentially get any extra benefit for the rail costs IF it is applied as sales tax or property tax.

The ones who pay the most federal income taxes. So still will save a chunk on federal tax bill and keep money in the state.
I am a renter and I itemize, BTW. I make well into 6 figures, and deduct state income taxes.

 

[cabri]

The state already has an aggressive renewable portfolio standard. By 2020 1/3rd of the state's electricity must come from renewable energy.

Is that for the State of California or the CA state government?

I am curious as to when it was adopted and how far along they are?

What are the penalties for not meeting that goal?

 

[K1052]

Is that for the State of California or the CA state government?

I am curious as to when it was adopted and how far along they are?

What are the penalties for not meeting that goal?

It's for the state as a whole. The program started in 2002 and was expanded by the governator in 2008 to get the state up to 33% renewable by 2020. IIRC, they're up to the the high 20s now and should meet the goal.

CPUC has broad regulatory power to enforce it. Utilities have to go through them if they want to raise rates.

 

[cabri]

^^ Thanks for the info

 

[chowderhead]

Train, signals, communications, buildings, lighting are all going to come from renewable electric power. :\

Another wish list

It's going to need lots and lots of foreign made steel and concrete which will take lots and lots of energy to build and transport. The CHSRA may want to use renewable energy for electricity but it still will need to take from the California electrical grid which is still a mixture of fossil nature gas and coal along with renewable.
http://its.berkeley.edu/btl/2010/spring/HRS-life-cycle

We have no idea until we see how much capacity the trains will run at as to if there will be a net benefit to the environment. At 25% capacity, it is a net negative to the environment due to the electricity and the GHG emitted from the building and construction.

 

[Slew Foot]

Not on your life, my Hindu friend.

At least someone got it, just replace monorail with HSR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZBPoRwog00

 

[cabri]

It's going to need lots and lots of foreign made steel and concrete which will take lots and lots of energy to build and transport. The CHSRA may want to use renewable energy for electricity but it still will need to take from the California electrical grid which is still a mixture of fossil nature gas and coal along with renewable.
http://its.berkeley.edu/btl/2010/spring/HRS-life-cycle

We have no idea until we see how much capacity the trains will run at as to if there will be a net benefit to the environment. At 25% capacity, it is a net negative to the environment due to the electricity and the GHG emitted from the building and construction.

I am sure that the "100 percent renewable energy goal" is intended to apply only after the train system is operational.

 

[werepossum]

At least someone got it, just replace monorail with HSR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZBPoRwog00

I think it's Morgantown West Virginia where Robert Byrd got a monorail put in at taxpayer expense. When I saw it, it was pretty much a mass of rust. Looks like a Mad Mouse with tiny little buses.

Yep, here it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgantown_Personal_Rapid_Transit

I did not realize until now that it actually is still running. When we drove past on the weekend absolutely nothing was moving and we actually thought it had been abandoned. Guess it just doesn't run (or run much) in the summer, or maybe just not on summer weekends.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

CA is nowhere? SF, Silicon Valley, LA, OC, San Diego are all nowhere?
OK, buddy whatever you say.

The issue is how many people are actually going to take the train? In order to get around anywhere other than San Francisco, you need a car.

I'm from the Bay Area, so let's use going down to LA as an example. Sure I take the train, but I need to drive everywhere else once I get there. Why would I bother with an expensive@$$ train ticket when I can just drive?

Before you argue that this is going to kill the airlines and pull flight data from SFO to LAX and vice versa, remember that SFO and LAX are United hubs. SFO is the UA gateway hub to Asia, meaning a lot of people fly from LAX to SFO to connect onwards to NRT, TPE, PVG, PEK, HKG, ICN, etc. Similarly, LAX is a hub to Latin America and also has a decent number of flights to Asia (5x flights per day to NRT, 5x to TPE). And honestly, what are you really solving? I still need to drive my ass to the train station and park there. Might as well just fly, because if you fly the regional airports (i.e. OAK to SNA), you're there in an hour, and we all know how regional airports = short security lines. My point is a lot of that air traffic is going to continue because there's a lot of hub traffic.

I'm not against public transportation. I travel everywhere in Asia, and compared to Asia, the US (even NYC) is a 3rd world country in terms of public transit. The new clean subway systems in Chinese cities put America to shame. Even the older systems like in Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong are way ahead of what you have in NYC. Just taking the BART to SF makes me want to puke with those fabric seats and 1970s rolling stock.

If anything, I think we'd be better off rolling out heavy/medium rail further in the SF Bay Area or LA area to help with highway congestion. HSR just makes more sense in a more populated area like the NE corridor. It works wonders in Japan, and even highly populated areas like Taiwan are showing huge struggles to maintain HSR operations.

Final question: What are the prices going to be? Amtrak is currently $58. Why would I pay $58 when I can easily get a $99 Southwest ticket and possibly even lower prices? How does HSR plan on fitting itself in there? If it sits between $58 and $99, say $75, that could be cool to try it out, but really why would I pay that again?

 

[OverVolt]

The issue is how many people are actually going to take the train? In order to get around anywhere other than San Francisco, you need a car.

I'm from the Bay Area, so let's use going down to LA as an example. Sure I take the train, but I need to drive everywhere else once I get there. Why would I bother with an expensive@$$ train ticket when I can just drive?

Before you argue that this is going to kill the airlines and pull flight data from SFO to LAX and vice versa, remember that SFO and LAX are United hubs. SFO is the UA gateway hub to Asia, meaning a lot of people fly from LAX to SFO to connect onwards to NRT, TPE, PVG, PEK, HKG, ICN, etc. Similarly, LAX is a hub to Latin America and also has a decent number of flights to Asia (5x flights per day to NRT, 5x to TPE). And honestly, what are you really solving? I still need to drive my ass to the train station and park there. Might as well just fly, because if you fly the regional airports (i.e. OAK to SNA), you're there in an hour, and we all know how regional airports = short security lines. My point is a lot of that air traffic is going to continue because there's a lot of hub traffic.

I'm not against public transportation. I travel everywhere in Asia, and compared to Asia, the US (even NYC) is a 3rd world country in terms of public transit. The new clean subway systems in Chinese cities put America to shame. Even the older systems like in Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong are way ahead of what you have in NYC. Just taking the BART to SF makes me want to puke with those fabric seats and 1970s rolling stock.

If anything, I think we'd be better off rolling out heavy/medium rail further in the SF Bay Area or LA area to help with highway congestion. HSR just makes more sense in a more populated area like the NE corridor. It works wonders in Japan, and even highly populated areas like Taiwan are showing huge struggles to maintain HSR operations.

Final question: What are the prices going to be? Amtrak is currently $58. Why would I pay $58 when I can easily get a $99 Southwest ticket and possibly even lower prices? How does HSR plan on fitting itself in there? If it sits between $58 and $99, say $75, that could be cool to try it out, but really why would I pay that again?

So if you can figure out this is a fail idea with a crayon and the back of a napkin what kind of special retarded is california? :awe:

 

[Greenman]

CAHSR will only use renewable energy:

http://www.hsr.ca.gov/Programs/Green_Practices/operations.html

Horse shit. Pure, unadulterated, propaganda. They say they are "committed to 100% renewable energy". I'm committed to only dating super models, that doesn't mean it's going to happen. They go on to say that they haven't actually got around to figuring out how they're going to do it, that's because they can't do it. Much like me and the models.