The liberals $43 billion train to no where...

[Greenman]

So if you can figure out this is probably a fail idea with a crayon and the back of a napkin what kind of special retarded is california? :awe:

The kind of retarded that want's to cover some of the finest farm land on earth with McMansions because farming uses too much water, or build a limited use high speed rail system that we don't need and can't afford, just cause we need a status symbol. We're the kind of retarded that built a billion dollar bridge and paid seven billion for it, then told everyone what a great job we did. We're the kind of retarded that now have to go back and start repairing the fundamental flaws in our billion dollar bridge that we paid seven billion for.

Retarded isn't a strong enough for how unbelievably stupid, short sited, and oblivious we are.

 

[Ns1]

The kind of retarded that want's to cover some of the finest farm land on earth with McMansions because farming uses too much water, or build a limited use high speed rail system that we don't need and can't afford, just cause we need a status symbol. We're the kind of retarded that built a billion dollar bridge and paid seven billion for it, then told everyone what a great job we did. We're the kind of retarded that now have to go back and start repairing the fundamental flaws in our billion dollar bridge that we paid seven billion for.

Retarded isn't a strong enough for how unbelievably stupid, short sited, and oblivious we are.

I love Cali so much <3

 

[marincounty]

The kind of retarded that want's to cover some of the finest farm land on earth with McMansions because farming uses too much water, or build a limited use high speed rail system that we don't need and can't afford, just cause we need a status symbol. We're the kind of retarded that built a billion dollar bridge and paid seven billion for it, then told everyone what a great job we did. We're the kind of retarded that now have to go back and start repairing the fundamental flaws in our billion dollar bridge that we paid seven billion for.

Retarded isn't a strong enough for how unbelievably stupid, short sited, and oblivious we are.

Yeah, California should just grow stuff like other retarded states.
Maybe you noticed the Silicon Valley? One of the most prosperous and productive places on earth. Also known as the Santa Clara valley, this was once some of the finest farmland you have ever seen, producing fine cherries, apricots and other fruits.
It was paved to build homes, factories and research facilities.
Gee, I wonder which has contributed more to California and the world, the fruit from Santa Clara or all of the intellectual output that has come from the Silicon Valley?
This is one of the reasons California is leading the nation in just about everything and will continue to do so for a very long time.
We don't listen to your backward looking garbage.

 

[theeedude]

The issue is how many people are actually going to take the train? In order to get around anywhere other than San Francisco, you need a car.

I'm from the Bay Area, so let's use going down to LA as an example. Sure I take the train, but I need to drive everywhere else once I get there. Why would I bother with an expensive@$$ train ticket when I can just drive?

Before you argue that this is going to kill the airlines and pull flight data from SFO to LAX and vice versa, remember that SFO and LAX are United hubs. SFO is the UA gateway hub to Asia, meaning a lot of people fly from LAX to SFO to connect onwards to NRT, TPE, PVG, PEK, HKG, ICN, etc. Similarly, LAX is a hub to Latin America and also has a decent number of flights to Asia (5x flights per day to NRT, 5x to TPE). And honestly, what are you really solving? I still need to drive my ass to the train station and park there. Might as well just fly, because if you fly the regional airports (i.e. OAK to SNA), you're there in an hour, and we all know how regional airports = short security lines. My point is a lot of that air traffic is going to continue because there's a lot of hub traffic.

I'm not against public transportation. I travel everywhere in Asia, and compared to Asia, the US (even NYC) is a 3rd world country in terms of public transit. The new clean subway systems in Chinese cities put America to shame. Even the older systems like in Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong are way ahead of what you have in NYC. Just taking the BART to SF makes me want to puke with those fabric seats and 1970s rolling stock.

If anything, I think we'd be better off rolling out heavy/medium rail further in the SF Bay Area or LA area to help with highway congestion. HSR just makes more sense in a more populated area like the NE corridor. It works wonders in Japan, and even highly populated areas like Taiwan are showing huge struggles to maintain HSR operations.

Final question: What are the prices going to be? Amtrak is currently $58. Why would I pay $58 when I can easily get a $99 Southwest ticket and possibly even lower prices? How does HSR plan on fitting itself in there? If it sits between $58 and $99, say $75, that could be cool to try it out, but really why would I pay that again?

You have to plan 20 years out, not for today. Look at the population trends, we are in same density ballpark as Europe already, and we need infrastructure to evolve in similar direction to sustain growth. It would be stupid to throttle a $2T/year economy to save $2B/year on infrastructure improvements. As far as fares, I think they'll be on par with low-cost airlines.

 

[marincounty]

We will build the train and you will help pay for it.
Maybe you can come here on vacation and ride the train?

 

[nickqt]

We will build the train and you will help pay for it.
Maybe you can come here on vacation and ride the train?

The rabble will be the ones using the trains, not our benevolent overlords. Hence, it's a bad idea.

Plus, Freedumb™

 

[Brainonska511]

The issue is how many people are actually going to take the train? In order to get around anywhere other than San Francisco, you need a car.

How do you get anywhere after getting off a plane?

I'm from the Bay Area, so let's use going down to LA as an example. Sure I take the train, but I need to drive everywhere else once I get there. Why would I bother with an expensive@$$ train ticket when I can just drive?

The idea is usually to beef up mass transit along with intercity links.

Might as well just fly, because if you fly the regional airports (i.e. OAK to SNA), you're there in an hour, and we all know how regional airports = short security lines. My point is a lot of that air traffic is going to continue because there's a lot of hub traffic.

And if you fly, how do you get from the airport to your destination? You'll need a car, right? May as well just drive . Airports have limited expansion capabilities in many areas and tend to be located on the outskirts of cities. Rail stations tend to be located in the middle of cities, next to major mass transit.

I'm not against public transportation. I travel everywhere in Asia, and compared to Asia, the US (even NYC) is a 3rd world country in terms of public transit. The new clean subway systems in Chinese cities put America to shame. Even the older systems like in Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong are way ahead of what you have in NYC. Just taking the BART to SF makes me want to puke with those fabric seats and 1970s rolling stock.

NYC could have a better system, but when it runs 24/7 and you constantly have the state taking money from the system to pay its bills, it's hard to fund improvements. But overall, the NYC subway does decent job of moving over 5 million people per day. I don't know why any transit company would buy fabric seats for subways and buses. They're not more comfortable and they seem to hold the grime in.

If anything, I think we'd be better off rolling out heavy/medium rail further in the SF Bay Area or LA area to help with highway congestion. HSR just makes more sense in a more populated area like the NE corridor. It works wonders in Japan, and even highly populated areas like Taiwan are showing huge struggles to maintain HSR operations.

Heavy rail for commuting is nice, but that serves a different niche. HSR is for intercity travel, and maybe a handful will use it to 'commute' in a traditional sense.

Final question: What are the prices going to be? Amtrak is currently $58. Why would I pay $58 when I can easily get a $99 Southwest ticket and possibly even lower prices? How does HSR plan on fitting itself in there? If it sits between $58 and $99, say $75, that could be cool to try it out, but really why would I pay that again?

When fuel costs were rising, did you think that ticket would stay at $100? Some people find value in taking the train over the plane - things such as closeness to the destination, comfort (seats are much bigger on trains), less hassle, roughly comparable travel times.

You can find tickets between NYC and Boston for ~$100 for flying, yet I'd still prefer to take Amtrak to get there. In the northeast, Amtrak carries more than 3 times the riders between DC and NYC as the airlines and carries more riders between NYC and Boston than all of the airlines combined, even though both those trips take longer than flying.

 

[Greenman]

Yeah, California should just grow stuff like other retarded states.
Maybe you noticed the Silicon Valley? One of the most prosperous and productive places on earth. Also known as the Santa Clara valley, this was once some of the finest farmland you have ever seen, producing fine cherries, apricots and other fruits.
It was paved to build homes, factories and research facilities.
Gee, I wonder which has contributed more to California and the world, the fruit from Santa Clara or all of the intellectual output that has come from the Silicon Valley?
This is one of the reasons California is leading the nation in just about everything and will continue to do so for a very long time.
We don't listen to your backward looking garbage.

You don't fathom cause and effect, you mistake profit for benefit, you think toy makers are social engineers.

 

[K1052]

Horse shit. Pure, unadulterated, propaganda. They say they are "committed to 100% renewable energy". I'm committed to only dating super models, that doesn't mean it's going to happen. They go on to say that they haven't actually got around to figuring out how they're going to do it, that's because they can't do it. Much like me and the models.

You can simply tell the relevant utility that you only want to buy renewable energy. This happens all the time and a lot of companies do it. CPUC will fuck their shit up if the utilities get caught cheating.

 

[cabri]

If they are committed to 100% renewable energy but the utility(s) only meeting the CPUC standards which is less than 100% (1/3 by 2020); does this mean the HSR will shut down.

Or is the HSR going to create its own renewable energy for the difference from the CPUC standards?

Do they expect honestly expect that there will be any utility that will be providing 100%?

Do the electrons come color coded from where they are generated?

 

[K1052]

If they are committed to 100% renewable energy but the utility(s) only meeting the CPUC standards which is less than 100% (1/3 by 2020); does this mean the HSR will shut down.

Or is the HSR going to create its own renewable energy for the difference from the CPUC standards?

Do they expect honestly expect that there will be any utility that will be providing 100%?

Do the electrons come color coded from where they are generated?

The utilities have to either generate or purchase enough renewable power to meet the state renewable standard and and other commitments it makes to customers who may also want to buy renewable power. CA utilities can buy power from say a photovoltaic plant in AZ or a hydro plant in WA if they need to aside from (or in addition to) building out their own in state renewable facilities. Typically these take the form of power purchase agreements.

 

[K1052]

Before you argue that this is going to kill the airlines and pull flight data from SFO to LAX and vice versa, remember that SFO and LAX are United hubs. SFO is the UA gateway hub to Asia, meaning a lot of people fly from LAX to SFO to connect onwards to NRT, TPE, PVG, PEK, HKG, ICN, etc. Similarly, LAX is a hub to Latin America and also has a decent number of flights to Asia (5x flights per day to NRT, 5x to TPE). And honestly, what are you really solving? I still need to drive my ass to the train station and park there. Might as well just fly, because if you fly the regional airports (i.e. OAK to SNA), you're there in an hour, and we all know how regional airports = short security lines. My point is a lot of that air traffic is going to continue because there's a lot of hub traffic.

Hub operations are part of the picture however you are generally more likely to use an airline that has substantial operations out of wherever you are based. If I was flying to Asia every other week out of SFO I'd probably be taking United or a codeshare instead of flying American and having to go down to LAX to every time. There is still a ton of inter-city flight traffic.

 

[Drako]

The Crony train to nowhere.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/jerry-browns-train-wreck-1475446109

Comrade Jerry at his very best/worst.

"Earlier this year the Los Angeles Times reported that a Spanish firm bidding on the project declared in its proposal that “more than likely, the California high speed rail will require large government subsidies for years to come.” The line was removed from the proposal posted on the state website."

And what California resident in 2040 will not want to travel by train from San Jose to just outside of Shafter? Shafter is a farming town north of Bakersfield.

 

[K1052]

In other news Brown signed the legislation reaffirming that Caltrain can receive the funding from Prop 1A to electrify their system and two court challenges to the project were defeated.

 

[theeedude]

Appreciate the Republican advise for California, but the state has been running much better since we stopped listening to it.
Maybe help trickle down to work in Kansas or something.

 

[Jaskalas]

And what California resident in 2040 will not want to travel by train from San Jose to just outside of Shafter? Shafter is a farming town north of Bakersfield.

Sounds like a nice place to act as a hub / stop along a network extending between the north / south and coast / mountains. Would be useful if Las Vegas was connected there. Don't know if such rail can endure extreme heat/cold through the desert.

 

[glenn1]

Appreciate the Republican advise for California, but the state has been running much better since we stopped listening to it.
Maybe help trickle down to work in Kansas or something.

You guys can "invest" your tax money in whatever you want including this train or bridges that run 2,500% over budget and 10 years late. Just don't expect federal taxpayers to contribute more to your folly, either in building or operating expenses.

 

[Jaskalas]

You guys can "invest" your tax money in whatever you want including this train or bridges that run 2,500% over budget and 10 years late. Just don't expect federal taxpayers to contribute more to your folly, either in building or operating expenses.

One issue with the notion of "pay it yourself" is there's no option to deduct that from the taxes CA citizens / businesses pay the Feds.
Also, throwing infrastructure costs on the back of the dollar is essentially the best way to ensure it gets done. It'd be better if the question wasn't IF we can do the project... but only if we should. Because once it is determined to be important economically we should always do what we can to reap the rewards.

 

[glenn1]

One issue with the notion of "pay it yourself" is there's no option to deduct that from the taxes CA citizens / businesses pay the Feds.
Also, throwing infrastructure costs on the back of the dollar is essentially the best way to ensure it gets done. It'd be better if the question wasn't IF we can do the project... but only if we should. Because once it is determined to be important economically we should always do what we can to reap the rewards.

Why should they deduct this from the taxes they pay to the feds? This is an exclusively intra-state railroad so Californians should pay for it themselves.

 

[theeedude]

You guys can "invest" your tax money in whatever you want including this train or bridges that run 2,500% over budget and 10 years late. Just don't expect federal taxpayers to contribute more to your folly, either in building or operating expenses.

When we take in more in federal spending than we pay in federal taxes, you will have a point.

 

[glenn1]

When we take in more in federal spending than we pay in federal taxes, you will have a point.

Vote against that state of affairs and then YOU'LL have a point. Unless/until then just shut up and enjoy that you're getting exactly what you want.

 

[theeedude]

Vote against that state of affairs and then YOU'LL have a point. Unless/until then just shut up and enjoy that you're getting exactly what you want.

I am fine with CA building high speed rail. You are free to listen to WSJ, I hear their policies are doing wonders in Kansas

 

[hal2kilo]

High speed trains aren't infrastructure, the are black holes.

Build some freeways if you want economic benefit.

Well, it's definitely election time. Now the Prof is back. Goody.

Holly shit! This is a necro thread. I feel better now.

 

[fskimospy]

Vote against that state of affairs and then YOU'LL have a point. Unless/until then just shut up and enjoy that you're getting exactly what you want.

No, he has a point now. He is fine with California paying out more then it gets in total, but that means that some projects that exist entirely within a state get federal funding sometimes. Since California taxpayers contribute a disproportionate amount to other states it's not out of line to expect that some projects in California will get federal money back.

You're the one who is saying that under the current circumstances California should both not give federal money to other states AND should pay for its own internal projects alone. Can't have it both ways.

 

[BudAshes]

I'd rather have higher speed internet. Scrap the trains and put in more fiber.