The liberals $43 billion train to no where...

[theeedude]

They were and are both wastes.

If you really cared about proving these HSRs can work in the United States. Why build it in California? Go to the NE corridor. A place that it has a legitimate chance at success.

Go ride your Iraq war from SF to LA.

 

[Genx87]

Go ride your Iraq war from SF to LA.

So we are back to the moronic argument of "we wasted money somewhere else, so we need to waste it here".

That didn't take long.

 

[theeedude]

So we are back to the moronic argument of "we wasted money somewhere else, so we need to waste it here".

That didn't take long.

Train has positive utility for decades after it's built, Iraq war will have negative consequences for decades after it happened.
Iraq war is a known waste. HSR is claimed to be a "waste," before it is built, by the same crowd who claimed Iraq war was a good idea before we went in, and have no leg to stand on when making claims like these.

 

[Genx87]

Train has positive utility for decades after it's built, Iraq war will have negative consequences for decades after it happened.
Iraq war is a known waste. HSR is claimed to be a "waste," before it is built, by the same crowd who claimed Iraq war was a good idea before we went in, and have no leg to stand on when making claims like these.

Trains are a waste except for in highly populated areas. Hence the suggestion you support an HSR in the NE corridor where it could actually be successful. Instead you want to throw 200 billion at a train to nowhere that will take 20 years to build and 12 people will ride. This should provide proof of concept for future initiatives.

The iraq war was a total waste of money. We have already established that. Because that was a waste of money doesn't mean we should fund this train.

 

[theeedude]

Trains are a waste except for in highly populated areas. Hence the suggestion you support an HSR in the NE corridor where it could actually be successful. Instead you want to throw 200 billion at a train to nowhere that will take 20 years to build and 12 people will ride. This should provide proof of concept for future initiatives.

The iraq war was a total waste of money. We have already established that. Because that was a waste of money doesn't mean we should fund this train.

Maybe not, but we should take predictions of the crowd who thought Iraq war with a big pinch of salt.
Iraq war was an absolute waste.
Train could be a relative waste if and only if we have essentially full employment and building it would divert needed labor from more productive endeavors. That is far from established.

 

[theeedude]

Trains are a waste except for in highly populated areas. Hence the suggestion you support an HSR in the NE corridor where it could actually be successful. Instead you want to throw 200 billion at a train to nowhere that will take 20 years to build and 12 people will ride. This should provide proof of concept for future initiatives.

The iraq war was a total waste of money. We have already established that. Because that was a waste of money doesn't mean we should fund this train.

CA is nowhere? SF, Silicon Valley, LA, OC, San Diego are all nowhere?
OK, buddy whatever you say.

 

[Genx87]

Maybe not, but we should take predictions of the crowd who thought Iraq war with a big pinch of salt.
Iraq war was an absolute waste.
Train could be a relative waste if and only if we have essentially full employment and building it would divert needed labor from more productive endeavors. That is far from established.

The train will be a waste in California. In the NE corridor I think it has a good chance of success. By the time this boondoggle gets completed most of us will be off this msgboard anyways.

You can wave that Iraq crowd argument around all you want. That doesn't have anything to do with this project.

 

[Genx87]

CA is nowhere? SF, Silicon Valley, LA, OC, San Diego are all nowhere?
OK, buddy whatever you say.

No problem guy.

 

[cabri]

Iraq War was a waste, a train is not.

Yet Iraq was funded.

At this point the cost of the train is increasing beyond what was sold to the voters, ridership estimates are down, ticket costs will be increasing and available "promised: funding has not shown up

The Engineering Service company, PB has a history of coming in multiple times over budget on project and also shoddy workmanship.

Some portions of the HSR will be built and will serve as a good learning platform.

Will it deliver as a cost effective alternate to air and the taxpayer; hopefully CA only will have that answer in 10 years.

 

[theeedude]

The train will be a waste in California. In the NE corridor I think it has a good chance of success. By the time this boondoggle gets completed most of us will be off this msgboard anyways.

If and only if there is near full employment and it's diverting production capacity from more productive endeavors. Otherwise not doing it would be a waste.

 

[cabri]

If and only if there is near full employment and it's diverting production capacity from more productive endeavors. Otherwise not doing it would be a waste.

Government projects once started very rarely get cancelled. Politicians point to the sunk costs, reputations are on the line; the taxpayers will always be on the hook to fund the completion, no matter what the costs.

Expect that the costs of the system will double (accounting for inflation) by the time each section is completed from what was last projected before dirt on that section was turned.

Expect that the ridership will be less than expected due to the ticket costs.

The only thing that may be on track (pun intended) is the speed.

 

[unokitty]

Large cost overruns are commonplace in government construction projects, procurement, and entitlement programs. Politicians and officials routinely deceive taxpayers by low-balling cost estimates to win initial spending approval. Then, when programs go over budget and do not work as promised, politicians place the blame on particular management blunders by the bureaucracy and private contractors. But the evidence indicates that cost overruns and program failure are not isolated errors; they are systematic and widespread in the federal government.

Two Examples
Boston "Big Dig" Estimate: $2.6b (1985). Cost: $14.6b (2002)
Denver International Airport: Estimate: $1.7b (1989). Cost: $4.8b (1995)

PDF

A few politically well connected people get to make an awesome amount of money from these projects, while the majority of the taxpayers get stuck with the bill...

No wonder the rich keep getting richer and the middle class keeps getting smaller...

Uno

 

[Drako]

CA is nowhere? SF, Silicon Valley, LA, OC, San Diego are all nowhere?
OK, buddy whatever you say.

You'll be dead before this train actually connects SF to LA, let alone San Diego. :biggrin:

 

[Ns1]

CA is nowhere? SF, Silicon Valley, LA, OC, San Diego are all nowhere?
OK, buddy whatever you say.

Remind me, when is the train being built there again?

 

[theeedude]

Remind me, when is the train being built there again?

Gotta start somewhere. Plus getting some of our federal taxes back on condition we start in Central Valley.

 

[Ns1]

Evidently they don't even have a plan to get into LA yet

:awe:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...speed-rail-angeles-forest-20150114-story.html

 

[cabri]

Evidently they don't even have a plan to get into LA yet

:awe:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...speed-rail-angeles-forest-20150114-story.html

Typical engineering proposal.

Ignore the NIMBY issue
Grand ideas; figure out the details later.

 

[glenn1]

Typical engineering proposal.

Ignore the NIMBY issue
Grand ideas; figure out the details later.

More like a typical political proposal since they lobbied for and secured the taxpayer money first. Now that the main objective has been achieved the same politicians will probably be leading the NIMBYs. Grand idea or not doesn't matter and they probably won't even bother figuring out the details unless there's more taxpayer loot in it for them.

 

[cabri]

More like a typical political proposal since they lobbied for and secured the taxpayer money first. Now that the main objective has been achieved the same politicians will probably be leading the NIMBYs. Grand idea or not doesn't matter and they probably won't even bother figuring out the details unless there's more taxpayer loot in it for them.

They needed the proposal research to present the flawed arguments to the taxpayer.

 

[BoberFett]

Evidently they don't even have a plan to get into LA yet

:awe:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...speed-rail-angeles-forest-20150114-story.html

Why do you kill kittens you evil Republican? Only Hitler wouldn't want light rail.

Just thought I'd get that out of the way before senseamp did.

 

[theeedude]

Yet Iraq was funded.

No it wasn't. It was simply added to the debt.

 

[theeedude]

Sounds like for the initial section, $3.5B is Federal Money, $2.8B is state money.
But state taxes that will pay for this are also deductible on Federal returns. So effectively it's $4B Federal funds and tax breaks and $2.3B in CA taxpayer funds.
Pretty good multiplier on this infrastructure spending from CA taxpayer side.

 

[Slew Foot]

Is there a chance the track could bend?

 

[werepossum]

Evidently they don't even have a plan to get into LA yet

:awe:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...speed-rail-angeles-forest-20150114-story.html

Wow. San Francisco to LA . . . ish.

Maybe LA is like Atlanta. Get your ROWs & easements, start at the other end, and it'll meet you somewhere in the middle.

 

[theeedude]

Looks like just in time for Okies canned from fracking jobs to get some work building our environmentally friendly infrastructure:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-...r-oil-patch-workers-laid-off-in-downturn.html

The biggest drilling states -- Texas, North Dakota, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Colorado -- are expected to feel the most pain. The Dallas Federal Reserve bank estimates 140,000 jobs directly and indirectly tied to energy will be lost in Texas in 2015 because of low oil prices.