The latest CBO report says the stimulus saved or created 1.4 to 3.3 million jobs*

[Throckmorton]

Business expenses are taken pre-tax.

How is it that conservatives don't realize that? Ever since the "Joe the Plumber" era I've been trying to figure that out....

 

[xj0hnx]

Yes, the economy of the future at which time we will have recovered and will be better off than if we didn't stimulate and ended up with a DEPRESSION

Oh yea, spending more is THE way to get out of debt.

 

[Throckmorton]

When the economy is in the toilet, and the government has to buy mortgages, propping up major institutions and unemployment is ridiculous? Oh nothing, nothing at all

I see, so drugs don't matter when the economy is bad. I guess we can stop spending money on arresting and prosecuting drug dealers?

 

[Throckmorton]

Oh yea, spending more is THE way to get out of debt.

Spending more is THE way to stimulate the economy and avoid a DEPRESSION. DEPRESSION = even worse revenue = even more debt.

It's mind boggling that revisionism has worked so well that a big chunk of the population actually doesn't believe in the very concept of stimulus. Herbert Hoover needs to come back from the grave like the Ghost of Depression Past and talk some sense into you buffoons.

 

[PeshakJang]

What exactly is wrong with studying the effects of narcotics? You don't think a scientist's job counts as a job? You'll have to explain that one.

What about the bankers? You don't think a banker's job counts as a job?

What about yacht makers? Rich people buy yachts (John Kerry). You think yacht maker's jobs don't count?

$100,000,000 spent on studying the effects of sunlight on a black piece of paper would be a good use of money in your mind, since those researchers' jobs count.

You literally think any amount on money spent in any arbitrary fashion is "good" because it "creates a job". Wow.

 

[PeshakJang]

Spending more is THE way to stimulate the economy and avoid a DEPRESSION. DEPRESSION = even worse revenue = even more debt.

It's mind boggling that revisionism has worked so well that a big chunk of the population actually doesn't believe in the very concept of stimulus. Herbert Hoover needs to come back from the grave like the Ghost of Depression Past and talk some sense into you buffoons.

Please list some of the uses of stimulus money during the 1930's and then provide comparisons to today's stimulus, in terms of inflation adjusted percentages of GDP, number of people employed, and real-world lasting benefits.

Also please outline the major factors sparking the economic collapse and recovery, in terms of global fiscal policy, political climate, and unemployment.

Until you get it through your head that the 1930's and today are radically different in every single one of those points, have fun trying to answer.

 

[Throckmorton]

What about the bankers? You don't think a banker's job counts as a job?

What about yacht makers? Rich people buy yachts (John Kerry). You think yacht maker's jobs don't count?

$100,000,000 spent on studying the effects of sunlight on a black piece of paper would be a good use of money in your mind, since those researchers' jobs count.

You literally think any amount on money spent in any arbitrary fashion is "good" because it "creates a job". Wow.

That's the POINT of stimulus... To get money into the economy and keep people working. You can't argue on the one hand that stimulus doesn't create jobs, then when jobs are pointed out, argue that those jobs are stupid.

 

[PeshakJang]

You can't argue on the one hand that stimulus doesn't create jobs, then when jobs are pointed out, argue that those jobs are stupid.

No, that's not the argument, that's your ridiculous claim. You are arguing that any amount of money spent in any foolish way is justified if it creates any arbitrary number of jobs.

My argument, and many others, is that the amount of money spent, being 100% debt, and the way it was spent, is idiotic.

If 100% of those jobs are government service jobs, how would that help our economy? What about 50%?

 

[BurnItDwn]

Joe Biden's take:
I want to know why the White House won't release the real numbers?

Perhaps they are giving the estimate because they don't have a good way to track the "real numbers"? Sounds like they are doing the best they can to estimate the numbers. It's not like the government is good at tracking things, they probably couldn't find a fly in a cup of soup.

 

[PeshakJang]

How is it that conservatives don't realize that? Ever since the "Joe the Plumber" era I've been trying to figure that out....

Why am I going to risk capital by investing in my business if the return on that capital is greatly diminished by taxes? Why would I want to risk any capital in a market with unpredictable government intervention and meddling?

It doesn't matter if I'm not taxed on the $100,000 I invest in my business... if I think my returns are going to be eroded by taxes, inflation, and regulation, why wouldn't I just hold onto the $100,000?

 

[PeshakJang]

Perhaps they are giving the estimate because they don't have a good way to track the "real numbers"? Sounds like they are doing the best they can to estimate the numbers. It's not like the government is good at tracking things, they probably couldn't find a fly in a cup of soup.

The problem is, when they come out with these numbers, while we get more and more negative economic reports on the other hand, people figure out pretty quickly that they are bullshitting us, and sentiment does not improve.

 

[Throckmorton]

Please list some of the uses of stimulus money during the 1930's and then provide comparisons to today's stimulus, in terms of inflation adjusted percentages of GDP, number of people employed, and real-world lasting benefits.

Also please outline the major factors sparking the economic collapse and recovery, in terms of global fiscal policy, political climate, and unemployment.

Until you get it through your head that the 1930's and today are radically different in every single one of those points, have fun trying to answer.

Nice try at deflection, but you can't deflect the reality that stimulus works. Borrowing from the future to fund the present is one of the concepts fundamental to capitalism. That was true during the Great Depression and it's true now.

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

How We Get Out of the Great Depression II
By Steven Stoft, March 2, 2009
Here we go again: Hoover got us in, and WWII got us out. Bush got us in, and
to his credit, started trying to get us out. Though, mostly he threw money at bankers.
In the Great Depression, Roosevelt tried deficit spending, but he was too timid. Then he stopped in 1937 and the economy nose-dived. It took the humongous deficits of WWII to pull us out of the Great Depression. Those deficits blasted the economy from depression into overdrive.
Of course after the war, we had to pay off a huge national debt, but during that time, from 1946 to 1980, the economy was mainly quite prosperous. We hit a bad recession when Reagan took office, and his early deficit spending made sense (though he didn't know it). But then he continued to drive up the debt through the boom years that followed. That didn't make any sense.

Here's a timeline you might want to look at
http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/connections_n2/great_depression.html

A more detailed article
http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/the-great-depression-the-gold/49586

 

[Moonbeam]

Perhaps they are giving the estimate because they don't have a good way to track the "real numbers"? Sounds like they are doing the best they can to estimate the numbers. It's not like the government is good at tracking things, they probably couldn't find a fly in a cup of soup.

Especially a cup of fly soup.

 

[Svnla]

So we spent about $787 Billion for 3.3 Million jobs, that would be about $238K a job, right? I sure like to get pay $238K/year from those awesome stimulus jobs.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

So we spent about $787 Billion for 3.3 Million jobs, that would be about $262K a job, right? I sure like to get pay $262K/year from those awesome stimulus jobs.

Make that $814B of spending...they revised the cost estimate upward by $27B.

 

[Throckmorton]

No, that's not the argument, that's your ridiculous claim. You are arguing that any amount of money spent in any foolish way is justified if it creates any arbitrary number of jobs.

My argument, and many others, is that the amount of money spent, being 100% debt, and the way it was spent, is idiotic.

If 100% of those jobs are government service jobs, how would that help our economy? What about 50%?

What do you mean "how would that help the economy"? Are you saying that money going to government employees and government contractors somehow doesn't go out to the rest of the economy?

I work for the county which wouldn't have been able to afford my salary if they bought those aforementioned buses with 100% county money. So my job is indirectly funded by the stimulus input to our local government, and so is everyone else's here.

100% of my income, plus money I've taken out of my IRA because I don't make enough to make ends meet, gets spent. $1100 a month goes to my landlady who uses it for the same things anyone else would- she doesn't burn it on a bonfire. $100 goes to the electric company who I know for a fact has employees that they pay with money. $60 goes to the local phone company that also hires people and pays them with money. A lot ends up going to Costco who hires quite a few people who I assume get paid with money as well... etc etc etc

 

[Throckmorton]

Make that $814B of spending...they revised the cost estimate upward by $27B.

You are either lying or you consider tax cuts to be "spending".

http://www.recovery.gov/Pages/home.aspx

                                 Total Funds      Funds Paid Out
[B]Tax Benefits  	               $288B  	          $223B[/B]
Contracts, Grants, Loans       $275B 	           $137B
Entitlements 	                $224B               $142B

 

[Acanthus]

So, according to their numbers...

At best the taxpayers shelled out $238K to temporarily "save" a job.

At worst, the taxpayers coughed up $562K to temporarily "save" a job.



The stimulus worked!

You're forgetting that there are a lot of tangible results as well.

Repaved highways, new bridges, national park projects, etc. ad nauseum.

It wasn't paying people to do nothing, which is what all of those people on ARRA would be getting if it didn't exist.

 

[BurnItDwn]

The problem is, when they come out with these numbers, while we get more and more negative economic reports on the other hand, people figure out pretty quickly that they are bullshitting us, and sentiment does not improve.

I think they are incompetent, you think they are intentionally being deceitful, either way, we're screwed!

 

[nick1985]

You're forgetting that there are a lot of tangible results as well.

Repaved highways, new bridges, national park projects, etc. ad nauseum.

It wasn't paying people to do nothing, which is what all of those people on ARRA would be getting if it didn't exist.

So the government spend 500k on each member of a road construction crew, but I'm not supposed to bitch about government inefficiencey because I got a freshly paved road out of it?

 

[IGBT]

the usual saved/created BS from the regime. to be followed by more "blame bush" action lines. so hopeless and reckless.

 

[nick1985]

the usual saved/created BS from the regime. to be followed by more "blame bush" action lines. so hopeless and reckless.

Well they can't admit defeat. All they can do is try their best to make it appear the stimulus worked. Thats the only card they can play.

A few people, as evident in this thread, bought that line of bullshit that was fed to them, but polls show most Americans feel the Stimulus hurt the country or had no effect.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You are either lying or you consider tax cuts to be "spending".

http://www.recovery.gov/Pages/home.aspx

                                 Total Funds      Funds Paid Out
[B]Tax Benefits                     $288B                $223B[/B]
Contracts, Grants, Loans       $275B                $137B
Entitlements                     $224B               $142B

Read the linked CBO report Dr. Einstein.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/117xx/doc...08-24-ARRA.pdf

"When ARRA was being considered, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) and the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation estimated that it would increase budget deficits by $787 billion between fiscal years 2009 and 2019. CBO now estimates that the total impact over the 2009–2019 period will amount to $814 billion. Close to half of that impact is estimated to occur in fiscal year 2010, and about 70 percent of ARRA’s budgetary impact will have been realized by the close of that fiscal year."

 

[Acanthus]

So the government spend 500k on each member of a road construction crew, but I'm not supposed to bitch about government inefficiencey because I got a freshly paved road out of it?

Materials cost, retard.

 

[PeshakJang]

Nice try at deflection, but you can't deflect the reality that stimulus works.

Medicine works... so Tylenol must cure cancer, right? That's what you are arguing. Stimulus works... doesn't matter what it is, how, when, where it's spent, it works.

Borrowing from the future to fund the present is one of the concepts fundamental to capitalism. That was true during the Great Depression and it's true now.

I am not arguing that... debt can fuel expansion, of course. But if I am a small business owner and I take out a loan to expand my business, then spend all of the money on remodeling my office, hiring extra janitors, getting comfy chairs, and an espresso machine, how is that going to improve my business? How will I pay that money back?

This is what you are doing... you are arguing one extreme position, that stimulus works, no matter the circumstances of how the money is spent, how much is spent, where it goes, etc., while you accuse me of arguing the opposite extreme, that stimulus never works.

The vast majority of those against the current stimulus are arguing my position, that the stimulus was misspent, poorly managed, allocated to wasteful projects, and pissed away at the expense of our future income. We hired janitors, bought new chairs, and got an espresso machine, and bought a few new buses, and now we can't figure out why we are no better off.